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Dear god, think of the rights of the people who want to start up death camps and exterminate people they view as subhuman! Christ, wasn't there a war fought about this a few decades ago or something?
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Aug 10, 2013 21:15
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LP97S posted:Christ, wasn't there a war fought about this a few decades ago or something? FDR used political violence to trample on the democratic rights of some German fascists. FDR was in the moral sewer, what a bad man.
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Aug 10, 2013 21:26
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weavernaut posted:Well, poo poo. I was genuinely unaware of any of that, because I'm in Western Germany. The easiest way to avoid seeing Fascism is not to look.
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Aug 10, 2013 22:02
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I withdraw my previous comments.
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By re-directing their hatred inwardly, is the return of fascism to Europa not a good thing for the world? Surely having their excess population of young, dumb & cumfull psychopaths patrolling their hometown tenements with bats is better than having them patrolling foreign slums with machine guns? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 10, 2013 22:27
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Xipe Totec posted:By re-directing their hatred inwardly, is the return of fascism to Europa not a good thing for the world? What happens when they're satisfied with the state of their tenements after 2 years of patrolling them?
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Aug 10, 2013 22:28
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Xipe Totec posted:By re-directing their hatred inwardly, is the return of fascism to Europa not a good thing for the world? Historically, European fascism has not contributed to global peace.
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Aug 10, 2013 22:35
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So a question about Germany, was is there such a rise of fascism in the East? Is it because the legacy of the DDR has turned people against the alternative to far right violence?
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Aug 10, 2013 22:44
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Omi-Polari posted:Not necessarily. Every country in Europe during World War II had domestic fascist movements and many collaborated directly with the Nazis. It's still sickening to want your country to be under Nazi hegemony. Because obviously. But many of these modern neo-fascisms (though not all) trace their history to these quislings. Many occupied countries also became embroiled in bloody civil wars between local fascists and communists. I don't think it's that incongruous.
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Aug 10, 2013 22:45
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KomradeX posted:So a question about Germany, was is there such a rise of fascism in the East? Is it because the legacy of the DDR has turned people against the alternative to far right violence? I'd have to go digging through newspapers to find more information, and my German is good, but I'm not entirely up-to-date on the current economic situation of former East Germany. Last time I was there, though, the economic disparities were pretty stark between East and West.
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Aug 10, 2013 22:54
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ReV VAdAUL posted:Can you offer evidence of this? I'd be interested to see it. Also, since what killed the BUF was government intervention I could claim just as glibly that it was Cable Street and other antifa events that attracted public attention to the BUF and subsequently helped solidify governmental interest in sorting out the problem. But no, I'm sure you're right and the proper response to fascist movements is to ignore them and let them play politics as they wish. They're harmless and if we just let them become legitimate political actors they'll be pacified and play ball by the rules the democratic process asks. This in no way can backfire and has never backfired historically. 
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Aug 10, 2013 22:54
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KazigluBey posted:But no, I'm sure you're right and the proper response to fascist movements is to ignore them and let them play politics as they wish. They're harmless and if we just let them become legitimate political actors they'll be pacified and play ball by the rules the democratic process asks. This in no way can backfire and has never backfired historically. Is there a reason why tactics such as raising awareness/providing alternatives so that individuals don't turn to fascism/politically empowering marginalized groups/aiding poor communities would not work in bringing down fascism? It seems like, from a preventing-fascism-is-the-only-goal standpoint, violent non-self-defense attacks against fascist groups provide them with major messaging advantages while not substantially harming them in the long run. However, given that fascism actually is repugnant and that people turn to it when they feel otherwise hopeless, it seems like resources would be much better spent on preventing the growth of fascist groups and increasing active opposition against them through outreach. Was there a historical major fascist movement that was just physically beaten down so much that everyone in the country/region decided to never join fascism?
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Aug 10, 2013 23:07
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KazigluBey posted:Also, since what killed the BUF was government intervention I could claim just as glibly that it was Cable Street and other antifa events that attracted public attention to the BUF and subsequently helped solidify governmental interest in sorting out the problem. At no point have I ever said fascism should be ignored. The only thing I have said is that using their own weapons against them is counter-productive. Now, I believe this is the point where someone quotes Hitler?
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Aug 10, 2013 23:12
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Is there a reason why tactics such as raising awareness/providing alternatives so that individuals don't turn to fascism/politically empowering marginalized groups/aiding poor communities would not work in bringing down fascism? Is there a reason why this is an OR choice rather than an AND choice? Do these options cancel each other out? The Battle of Hayes Pond quote:The Klan ceased its activities in Robeson County thereafter. e.: I see you are ignoring the requests for citations. You know who else didn't back up his theories on society with hard facts? 
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Aug 10, 2013 23:14
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KazigluBey posted:Is there a reason why this is an OR choice rather than an AND choice? Do these options cancel each other out? No, a group could certainly act against fascist groups in both violent and nonviolent ways. My concern is that acting against them in violent ways could prove to accomplish less than it would empower fascist groups through allowing them to claim oppression/violent repression - which could cause their own followers to become more radicalized and those on the fence to lean toward the supposedly-oppressed fascist group. If anti-fascist groups could accomplish a string of Battles of Hayes Pond, then that would work well - thanks for linking that article! It's an inspiring story that I didn't know about before today. The issue is that it would be really difficult to outnumber the Golden Dawn by 10:1, which happened in that retaliation. It seems like the Lumbee men were able to basically send away the entire area's Klan presence in a single night, and I'm not sure that could be done with today's European fascist groups.
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Aug 10, 2013 23:26
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Brannock posted:What happens when they're satisfied with the state of their tenements after 2 years of patrolling them? A question that should be put to & resolved by the society that created them, instead of exporting them somewhere else (with guns and explosives) Civilized Fishbot posted:Historically, European fascism has not contributed to global peace. Europeans invaded a lot less countries post WW2 than in preceding centuries; if the US hadn't shielded and rebuilt them they would have invaded none.
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Aug 10, 2013 23:28
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Civilized Fishbot posted:No, a group could certainly act against fascist groups in both violent and nonviolent ways. My concern is that acting against them in violent ways could prove to accomplish less than it would empower fascist groups through allowing them to claim oppression/violent repression - which could cause their own followers to become more radicalized and those on the fence to lean toward the supposedly-oppressed fascist group. They're already claiming oppression and repression, it's one of the tenets of fascist discourse. You should watch the YouTube video I posted earlier. Attempting to reason with people swayed by fascist discourse is inherently limited, because the very act of appealing to various senses of liberal reason, non-violence and tolerance are diametrically opposed to what their belief system stands for. Leftists, 'liberals' and other groups are on the hate list as well. How much luck do you think the average Turkish immigrant in east Germany, or Roma in half of Europe has saying 'please, let's just discuss this rationally and reasonably, and you'll find I'm NOT the source of your social and economic problems, now could you please stop kicking me in the face?'
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Aug 10, 2013 23:35
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Xipe Totec posted:Europeans invaded a lot less countries post WW2 than in preceding centuries; if the US hadn't shielded and rebuilt them they would have invaded none. I hear that European fascism was still dominant after WW2.
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Aug 10, 2013 23:41
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KazigluBey posted:I see you are ignoring the requests for citations. You know who else didn't back up his theories on society with hard facts? Says the man who hasn't even backed up his theory on what I said in this thread with a quote that proves it. A lot of the stuff I'd like to cite is very hard to find for various reasons, but here's a good quote from 'Some Lesser Known Aspects': The Anti-Fascist Campaign of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, 1936-40 by Daniel Tilles: quote:Second, and more significant, the famous Battle of Cable Street, at which 100,000 or so anti-fascists violently blocked a procession of 2,000 Blackshirts, while remembered as a decisive victory against fascism, actually boosted the BUF in the short term, energising its support, evoking some public sympathy, and generating publicity that attracted thousands of new recruits. This was representative of a wider trend, with Laski advised by numerous sources, including senior personnel within the Home Office and police force, as well as his own informants in the East End, that the BUF deliberately acted provocatively to incite violent opposition, with the aim of garnering press attention and casting itself as a victim. It was this understanding that informed the decision to encourage Jews to avoid physical confrontation, despite, as noted above, an awareness that this was a difficult demand to make of those confronted by the Blackshirts’ offensive behaviour. Citations on those facts come from Richard Thurlow's Fascism in Britain and Thomas P Linehan's East London for Mosley: The British Union of Fascists in East London and South-West Essex, 1933-40 And on the aftermath: quote:Moreover, Jewish involvement in this conflict had dangerous consequences for the community. Not only was it exploited in anti-Semitic propaganda, it also inspired physical violence against Jews. A week after Cable Street — declared by the BUF to be “Jewry’s biggest blunder,” with one speaker promising, “By God there is going to be a pogrom” — the most serious anti-Jewish violence of the interwar period took place, with a band of fascist youths attacking Jewish individuals and property in a rampage through the East End. So the violence at Cable Street didn't stop the fascists trying again. I've also been trying in vain to find results of the 1937 elections - London County Council only holds records back to 1964 - to verify claims I've seen on pro-fascist sites that the BUF vote share increased in both rounds of elections in that year. Those sites do have quotes from the Observer, the Guardian and the Daily Worker that would back up the claims, but the archives for all three newspapers are behind paywalls and I'm not going to use any quotes provided by fascists until I've had independent verification of context and existence.
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Aug 10, 2013 23:54
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Pesmerga posted:They're already claiming oppression and repression, it's one of the tenets of fascist discourse. You should watch the YouTube video I posted earlier. Attempting to reason with people swayed by fascist discourse is inherently limited, because the very act of appealing to various senses of liberal reason, non-violence and tolerance are diametrically opposed to what their belief system stands for. Leftists, 'liberals' and other groups are on the hate list as well. How much luck do you think the average Turkish immigrant in east Germany, or Roma in half of Europe has saying 'please, let's just discuss this rationally and reasonably, and you'll find I'm NOT the source of your social and economic problems, now could you please stop kicking me in the face?' I watched your video - thanks for pointing it out again. I love short documentaries like that, and I'm disappointed with myself for overlooking it before. Of course people in imminent danger from attack have every right to self-defense. In the face of one of the all-too-frequent Golden Dawn attacks or planned assault on a group of immigrants/ethnic minorities, I'm 100% in favor of a good samaritan providing physical self-defense on behalf of that person. I'm thinking about the benefits/losses of interrupting a fascist nonviolent rally or nonviolent march. It seems to me like the major flaw of violence against fascist groups would be allowing these groups to much more effectively claim oppression and repression. As you pointed out, that's a basic pillar of the fascist worldview, so I'm scared about the consequences of allowing such groups to make themselves appear to have been proven right. Maybe I just don't have enough respect for the impact of political violence on fascist movements, but it seems to me like even the largest possible "bash the fash" retaliation wouldn't be effective in taking one of the larger groups in Europe today out of commission. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 00:01
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Jedit imagine you are speaking to a group of people being terrorised by thugs patrolling their streets and beating the poo poo out of them. What advice are you offering here?
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Aug 11, 2013 00:02
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Civilized Fishbot posted:It seems to me like the major flaw of violence against fascist groups would be allowing these groups to much more effectively claim oppression and repression. As you pointed out, that's a basic pillar of the fascist worldview, so I'm scared about the consequences of allowing such groups to make themselves appear to have been proven right. Maybe I just don't have enough respect for the impact of political violence on fascist movements, but it seems to me like even the largest possible "bash the fash" retaliation wouldn't be effective in taking one of the larger groups in Europe today out of commission. They'll act like they have been proven right no matter what actually happens.
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Aug 11, 2013 00:05
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Jedit posted:At no point have I ever said fascism should be ignored. The only thing I have said is that using their own weapons against them is counter-productive. Seemed to be rather productive by 1945.
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Aug 11, 2013 00:12
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The deportation of Romani people has been touched upon here. And I'm American so I try not to Godwin here, but rounding up Romani to send them to Eastern Europe sounds, just on the surface, very familiar. I know antiziganism is pretty widespread in Europe; have the fascist groups outlined so far been egging on this sentiment in any way? (And are the lives of many Romani made even worse?  Wait I know the answer to that one...)
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Aug 11, 2013 00:16
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I dont like political violence generally. Even in cases where theres a "just side" as I see it, who is to say what is just, what is going "too far", etc.. But, I for one am kind of gratified to see some toughguys meeting fascists on the ground they are attempting to take (out in public, which keeps observers from concluding "well, I guess fascism is sort of acceptable to some, even if I dont personally agree"). Whats good about it is that this is presumably a response to fascism being made by relatively uneducated people. D&D threads frequently devolve via "its the right message, but the way they went about it was wrong, hurts public opinion, etc", then entire pages are spent arguing about who is Really preserving the status quo, and whether the heroes are actually hypocrites. Presumably, these arent insulated, self flagellating college kids, congratulating themselves on their commitment to political purity and nonviolence. It's gratifying to see that people are willing to say "gently caress these guys" down in the streets. ed: I think it was in a Thomas Merton book (Faith and Violence? Not sure, maybe I read it elsewhere) where he wrote about various types of protest and how they wouldnt work if separated from their context. As in, Ghandi's nonviolence works well if there is a way for observers to see how lovely the authorities are acting, but it would be largely ineffective in, say, nazi Germany, where the secret police would ensure that no unofficial political message would ever see the light of day. One size does not fit all. (I feel really bad dragging Merton into this, I have to find a copy of the book to figure out if thats where I saw it) crusader_complex fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 00:21
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Civilized Fishbot posted:No, a group could certainly act against fascist groups in both violent and nonviolent ways. My concern is that acting against them in violent ways could prove to accomplish less than it would empower fascist groups through allowing them to claim oppression/violent repression - which could cause their own followers to become more radicalized and those on the fence to lean toward the supposedly-oppressed fascist group. Again, not sure political gains from whining about oppression really work out for the fash (edit: in the long term, beyond immediate gains, because when these assholes start making the news the sympathy drains fast). This kind of behavior runs contrary to the image they like to cultivate about themselves, for one. Further, it's rare that actual coverage of fash events where antifa makes a move are covered in an entirely sympathetic way to the fash. If anything, because of how entirely transparent these groups are in their belief more media exposure is bad for them, not good. As for the Golden Dawn, I think you've got a different issue altogether. By this point it becomes a new problem in that the police tolerate their violence, and much like in Russia they can expect to escape prosecution for the crimes they commit. I ask then, in this kind of scenario isn't it madness to ask people to just hunker down and respect the GD's political legitimacy? Should people just lie down and take it, maybe talk to the GD every once in a while and hope they change their minds about the whole, you know, being racist shitheads thing? Jedit posted:Says the man who hasn't even backed up his theory on what I said in this thread with a quote that proves it. Reminder that there were no "claims" in this thread before you started the hand-wringing about counter-action. Your link is neat but have you actually gone and read it more closely? Because the pattern that emerges in "'Some Lesser Known Aspects': The Anti-Fascist Campaign of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, 1936-40" is that the government was highly receptive to the idea of crack-downs and enhanced surveillance of groups like the BUF. But things aren't that simple anymore, are they? What of counties where the government aids and abates these groups? What of countries where they can run for office legitimately with no opposition from the system? Lemme shift my goal-posts and call myself on it to save you the trouble, but it doesn't matter what the particular effects of cable street were, the issue is for the necessity of direct action against fascism- in this case, "direct" means "violent if need be". Do you think what now applies to the UK would work in Greece or Russia? KazigluBey fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 00:22
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I watched your video - thanks for pointing it out again. I love short documentaries like that, and I'm disappointed with myself for overlooking it before. When we say that Fascism means war, it's not actually a metaphor. The fash don't do nonviolence, they either do violent action or make preparations for violent action at a later date. This is a fundamental part of the entire ideology, for gently caress's sake. Also an even more fundamental requirement for fascism to be successful is constructing a heroic myth around the movement. Fascism thrives when its adherents see themselves as powerful and righteous, and having that sense knocked out of them by determined resistance is far more destructive than maybe creating some vague sense of sympathy among the general public. Even if the fash claim repression, then so what? If you want to make a difference here you should rather spend your time and effort convincing people that fascism should be repressed. Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 00:24
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Dusz posted:Seemed to be rather productive by 1945. I think that you're arguing past one another here. I don't think that Jedit is saying that fascists aren't bad or that they shouldn't be fought against on an international level. I think he's talking domestically, and going out and beating fascists up does absolutely nothing but play into their hands. They get to play the part of the oppressed, they get to begin to wield the authorities against their opponents, and to the general public it makes you at best look as bad as they and at worst makes them more sympathetic of the fascists. D&D really needs to abandon its fetish for violence as a means of enacting change, because in truth it makes whoever is doing it look just as nuts as whoever they're doing it to unless the vast vast majority of public opinion is on their side, in which case violence isn't even necessary. The public is not won over with violence, and contrary to what some people seem to think, public opinion is everything in a democracy.
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Aug 11, 2013 00:25
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Reminder this was kicked off by Jedit equating Antifa to fascism.
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Aug 11, 2013 00:28
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Fojar38 posted:I think that you're arguing past one another here. I don't think that Jedit is saying that fascists aren't bad or that they shouldn't be fought against on an international level. I think he's talking domestically, and going out and beating fascists up does absolutely nothing but play into their hands. They get to play the part of the oppressed, they get to begin to wield the authorities against their opponents, and to the general public it makes you at best look as bad as they and at worst makes them more sympathetic of the fascists. But nobody gives a poo poo about oppressed fascists. What fascist has ever been recruited with the idea of joining a repressed and impotent organization?
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Aug 11, 2013 00:29
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MeLKoR posted:Apart from that the ruling class cares not a fig for The Nation, in fact they are quite happy to gently caress over their country for profit. Do you see them losing any sleep over the consequences shipping jobs to 3rd world countries is having on their own Nation? Hahaha, as long as it lined their pockets they would (and often did) sell their countrymen into slavery. Adam Smith actually realized this in the Wealth of Nations. He couldn't come up wih a reason for why the capitalists would actually prefer Great Britain over other countries though, so he made up the invisible hand and declared that as if guided by an invisible hand they'd prefer Britain. It's the only mention of the invisible hand in the entire book. quote:Every individual... neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it... he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention. Seriously, this is liberalism.txt in its original form. Focusing on the individual and being completely blind to the fact that certain classes of individuals share certain personal interests that in fact are entirely contrary to the public interest. Now, we can forgive Smith since in his time nobody had come up with this kind of class-based view yet (although he still deserves poo poo for his handwaving), but its been centuries by now and we're still hearing the same bullshit. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 00:31
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Miltank posted:But nobody gives a poo poo about oppressed fascists. If this is true doesn't it mean that violence is unnecessary since public opinion is so heavily against fascism? Why go out and beat people up if nothing they do is actually going to cause any change? Aside from it feeling cathartic to act on your hate.
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Aug 11, 2013 00:32
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The only moral protest is my protest (nonviolent, from my computer desk).
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Aug 11, 2013 00:32
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Miltank posted:But nobody gives a poo poo about oppressed fascists. What fascist has ever been recruited with the idea of joining a repressed and impotent organization? I think the appeal is less "come and be beaten up by anti-fascists" and more "[INSERT NATIONALIST/RACIST IDEAL] is unjustly under physical attack from the establishment and you must help to the greatest extent possible before they wipe out [INSERT NATIONALIST/RACIST IDEAL] forever!"
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Aug 11, 2013 00:33
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Fojar38 posted:If this is true doesn't it mean that violence is unnecessary since public opinion is so heavily against fascism? Why go out and beat people up if nothing they do is actually going to cause any change? Aside from it feeling cathartic to act on your hate? You don't go out and beat up the fash for shits and giggles, you go out and beat the fash when they're trying to stomp on some immigrant neighbourhood.
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Aug 11, 2013 00:33
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I think the appeal is less "come and be beaten up by anti-fascists" and more "[INSERT NATIONALIST/RACIST IDEAL] is unjustly under physical attack from the establishment and you must help to the greatest extent possible before they wipe out [INSERT NATIONALIST/RACIST IDEAL] forever!" They're already preaching that. That's a big part of their ideology. No matter what you actually do, they'll always be UNDER ATTACK BY <INSERT GROUP HERE>.
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Aug 11, 2013 00:37
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Cerebral Bore posted:You don't go out and beat up the fash for shits and giggles, you go out and beat the fash when they're trying to stomp on some immigrant neighbourhood. Uh, why? Do you think if you moved to Turkey or Whereverthefuckistan the natives would stand up for you there? Hell no. They don't like foreigners at all. Why do you like foreigners over your own people?
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Aug 11, 2013 00:37
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Cerebral Bore posted:You don't go out and beat up the fash for shits and giggles, you go out and beat the fash when they're trying to stomp on some immigrant neighbourhood. That's fair. I mean, it's vigilantism but I know better than to try and be pro-police on Something Awful. The battle of Cable Street wasn't people standing in the way of a bunch of fascist assholes going to abuse people though. The fascist assholes were going to march through and then presumably bugger off afterward.
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Aug 11, 2013 00:37
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Cerebral Bore posted:You don't go out and beat up the fash for shits and giggles, you go out and beat the fash when they're trying to stomp on some immigrant neighbourhood. Completely agree with this post. To my knowledge nobody here is baying for blood. If Antifa can carry an action with just the counter-protest, showing numbers and getting some press coverage of the opposition then fine. We had an Antifa counter-protest to an SDL thing in Aberdeen a few months ago and it was perfectly civil. I'm not baying for blood or throwing around UP AGAINST THE WALL or anything. Now, if they start marching in uniform, if the police are co-oped, if the political system begins backing them... I'm not sure purely passive resistance will do much in places like Greece or Russia. But sure, according to forums poster Jedit bashing the fash makes you a fash, period. OK, whatever.
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Aug 11, 2013 00:39
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Jedit posted:It was right that the people of Cable Street stood against the fascists. It was wrong for them to make it a battle. When you're a hundred thousand strong, you don't need to fight to stop 3000 fascists coming through. You just stand there and say they will not. If there's violence, you let someone else start it. The Cable Street protesters chose to start the fight; in the process they surrendered the moral high ground. They also did a lot to prove that Mosley was right - there the BUF were, marching peacefully and legally, when the Jews roused the rabble against them and attacked the police for trying to maintain law and order (at least, that's how they span it). In the wake of the Battle there was a rise in anti-semitism that didn't die down until Hitler declared war. They didn't start the fight you twit. The put up blockades and showed up a 100,000 strong. The police then attempted to clear the blockade and attacked the crowd in order to allow the lawful march of the fascists. There never was at Cable street any fighting between fascists and anti-fascists, only between police and anti-fascists. You know what really would've been a good way to crush the fascist message? 3000 fascists hanging from lampposts.
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Aug 11, 2013 00:43
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KazigluBey posted:Now, if they start marching in uniform, if the police are co-oped, if the political system begins backing them... I'm not sure purely passive resistance will do much in places like Greece or Russia. I can agree with this. If civil authorities, especially the police or god forbid the military are corrupted by the fascist movement then I would say that it is not only justified to oppose them but also a moral imperative to do so with all means necessary including violent resistance.
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Aug 11, 2013 00:43
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