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weavernaut posted:For what it's worth, my German partner seems completely untroubled by the rise of fascist groups in Europe, but Germany is probably the safest place to be in Europe, if you want to avoid fascist gangs.     
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Aug 10, 2013 02:46
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Abrasive Obelisk posted:Can someone please post a summary of what is happening in Hungary? (I have family there, would like to know what exactly is going on) If I remember correctly and it hasn't already been posted aljazeera did a decent minidoc on the subject here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ow9qa8whU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Aug 10, 2013 17:18
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Jedit posted:legitimate authority figures defending the BUF's democratic rights. God forbid we trample on the sacred democratic rights of fascist parties. Socialist parties, though? Beat the poo poo out of them, ransack the offices, send 'em to jail. Traitors, the lot of them.
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Aug 10, 2013 21:10
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Omi-Polari posted:The idea behind palingenesis is that it's not a return to the past per se, but the creation of an entirely new kind of society which contains the essence of the old. Watched a German documentary some years ago on Nazism as Artistic Vision or something to that effect (that I absolutely cannot remember the actual title of) that claimed that the Nazi contribution to prepping and launching the Second World War was the goal of returning Europe to Rome-inspired romanticized "unifying violence/barbarity," something something, Hitler's preferred grotesque Greek/Roman-inspired architecture being designed with how it would look thousands of years into the future as ruins a la the Parthenon or Colosseum, the use of the Roman salute, the repeating Eagle motif, with a distinctly local Germanic twist with the Nordic/Aryan, Nietzsche/Wagner flavoring etc. etc. i.e., yes: "Let's boldly go forward to complete the project of Are Ancient European (Roman) Heritage, which our German Culture (or X Culture) best represents via a direct lineage we know about (e: even in the usage of "The Third Empire" to describe the NS-State, ofc the first being Germanic Holy Roman Empire as "rightful" successor of Rome, second being yet another "true successor" of the HRE in the unified German Empire of 1871-1918, etc.) with the violence and slavery and exclusion and 'grandness' and all the rest included, using the tools of today such as, in the 1940s, the massive tank warfare and dive bombers and industrialized murder (rather than the ancient Spartan "cliff-based" eugenics and spear-and-horseman warfare)" e: albeit the New Rome "concept" is one that has been utilized over an over again in European society (European "barbarian" tribes successors nearly all having some sort of strange wish to re-create "The New Rome" after the collapse, Constantinople/Istanbul, Paris, London, Berlin, Moscow, etc.) but it took on and still takes on a very interesting particular form in Italy and Germany and now Greece.. and the equation of US with Rome also creates interesting parallels even without such a long and storied history to draw inspiration from, albeit this could partially explain the traditional weakness of a bona fide fascism in the US. poidinger fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Aug 16, 2013 |
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Aug 16, 2013 02:21
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Smudgie Buggler posted:I don't think you can call Constantinople a Rome wannabe. The Byzantine Empire wasn't an attempt at a New Rome. It WAS Old Rome, continued. Well, turning Constantinople into Rome-Rome after the collapse of Rome-Rome was a sort of a New Rome rather than the old half-of-Rome set-up, but point taken.. I was trying to point more to the Ottoman (Sultanate of Rum) fascination more than anything SirKibbles posted:Fascism was really popular with the rich in the US before we joined on the side of the axis. WWII probably caused the US to dodge the fascist bullet not any sort of long history, the modern German state had only existed for a few decades at most so I don't think that really applies. well, yes, if we're limiting the modern German state to 1871 (so a "mere" half a century), but the Germanic peoples that make up the modern German state do have a long history spanning directly back to Rome (via Austrian "Vindobona," the HRE, etc.) that the Nazis demonstrably directly referred to over and over again (again, as mentioned "das dritte Reich," Eagle, salute, etc.) that the US does not really have the direct "benefit" of (outside of specifically European immigrant histories, the US Eagle & fasces all over gov't symbols and buildings, etc.) e: I mean the paean to Rome is right there: "Fascism" the term deriving directly from the Roman fasces e2: not to mention that the Business Plot =/ "facism being really popular among all the US rich" if that's what we're referring to. anti-FDR sentiment (which was very much in vogue among US rich at the time) also =/ fascism per se poidinger fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Aug 16, 2013 |
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Aug 16, 2013 04:03
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| # ¿ May 13, 2024 02:56 |
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kind of a derail so I'll stop after this one:SirKibbles posted:I really feel like that it doesn't count until they pull together the all of the ethnic groups in the German state under the German flag. There really wasn't a national identity in terms of being German the various ethnic groups in Germany weren't really unified under a national German identity for all that long and that's super important for fascism. There actually was for quite some time prior to 1871, in the fighting between the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the North German Confederation (to determine a Grossdeutsches Reich which the Austrians favored, and, ironically, the Austrian Adolf Hitler later implemented after gaining control of the Prussian-backed Kleindeutsches Reich that actually won the historical "argument"), and before that Austro-Prussian wars revolved around conceptions of "Germanness" and domination of the German peoples and even before that the Thirty Years War of Protestantism vs Catholicism (The Church of Rome, mind you) taking place primarily within the borders of Germany was also, in part, a war to determine what the Actual Religion of the "German Peoples" would be. Even the HRE was an administrative alliance of the Germanic peoples, and they saw it as such. You can even make the argument that the Regnum Teutonicum/Germaniae (Kingdom of Teutons and later "Germany") that emerged from the Carolingian Empire would be the first emergence of a sort of Ur-Germanic "nationalism." "Germany" itself comes from the (incorrect) Roman designation of all the tribes living in the province north of the Danube, east of the Rhine as "Germania," populated by the supposedly monolithic Germani people. This designation caught on after the Roman Conquests and basically stuck Most clearly (and I am partially to blame here for going "here, here is Nation X's emergence!") you can at least point to the 1800s Napoleonic "Confederation of the Rhine" and the death of the HRE in 1806 for the start of "modern" German unified nationalism that we can recognize that later formed the core of the 1848 revolutionary movement, giving at least over a century of nationalism tied to a single specific ethnic group to percolate (if we're not being generous and allowing several centuries all the way back to the ashes of the Frankish Empire in the 9th century CE or earlier). quote:I don't just mean the business plot ,I mean that the rich really liked the fascists because they'd not only kick the poo poo out of leftists and anyone trying to organize against Capital but they really hit a nerve with all of the imperialists in the states with their worship of war and conquest. One could argue that they then (foolishly) thought they could use nascent fascism as a tool to attack their enemies, not that it was a "popular" ideology held by them, i.e. that they were fascists themselves. I'm sure they were pretty scared of the Nazi parties prior to their "selling out" to the interests of German capital and elimination of the more left-wing strains of their organization. quote:The US differs from Europe in that it doesn't have that relationship with the Church and culturally it's severed itself from the crown so if it went fascist it'd be treading new territory, I'd expect alot of military worship the church would play a major role but I feel it'd be more subservient to the military compared to fascists in latin america or Franco. Yes, precisely my point -- the divided religions & ethnicities (even, and especially within the military), long history of some sort or another of democratic practices (with the Germans not so much), lack of long-running and strong connection to Rome, lack of revanchist sentiments, etc. is what makes any sort of US fascism a much smaller and much different phenomenon than European fascism.. albeit again, the equation of US Empire behavior to Rome and the use of some of its symbols is what generates some of these interesting parallels poidinger fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Aug 16, 2013 |
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Aug 16, 2013 05:06
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