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weavernaut posted:Well, poo poo. I was genuinely unaware of any of that, because I'm in Western Germany. The easiest way to avoid seeing Fascism is not to look.
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Aug 10, 2013 22:02
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Civilized Fishbot posted:It seems to me like the major flaw of violence against fascist groups would be allowing these groups to much more effectively claim oppression and repression. As you pointed out, that's a basic pillar of the fascist worldview, so I'm scared about the consequences of allowing such groups to make themselves appear to have been proven right. Maybe I just don't have enough respect for the impact of political violence on fascist movements, but it seems to me like even the largest possible "bash the fash" retaliation wouldn't be effective in taking one of the larger groups in Europe today out of commission. They'll act like they have been proven right no matter what actually happens.
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Aug 11, 2013 00:05
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I think the appeal is less "come and be beaten up by anti-fascists" and more "[INSERT NATIONALIST/RACIST IDEAL] is unjustly under physical attack from the establishment and you must help to the greatest extent possible before they wipe out [INSERT NATIONALIST/RACIST IDEAL] forever!" They're already preaching that. That's a big part of their ideology. No matter what you actually do, they'll always be UNDER ATTACK BY <INSERT GROUP HERE>.
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Aug 11, 2013 00:37
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A Buttery Pastry posted:
My great-grand-somethings who ended up being murdered in concentration camps (or simply shot/hacked to pieces where they stood) were as white as one can get, had blue eyes and light brown hair, some of them were even blonde. Don't bother trying to poke holes in fascist logic. Fascists don't care. They just kill.
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Aug 12, 2013 17:59
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Orange Devil posted:This is why we should burn all the loving churches. That's just what Greece needs. An angry Dutchman with a torch.  Will you at least let the religious Greeks leave, or do you intend to lock them up inside a church and just torch them all?
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Sep 14, 2013 14:09
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a bad enough dude posted:Greek gov is moving to ban Golden Dawn. loving finally. I just hope they'll be able to round up Golden Dawn's leaders before they start getting funny ideas about fighting back in an organized manner.
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Sep 18, 2013 21:44
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Captain_Maclaine posted:I know this is childish of me and wishing for more violence isn't exactly healthy, but there is a part of me that sorta wants those bastards to try to fight it out and (optimally) be the ones crushed under the boot-heel for a change. The problem is that if GDs decide to fight, they won't go after people who can fight back. So, the less violence, the better. Assassinations and similar acts tend to go spectacularly wrong if you're powerful enough to be a threat to the government institutions, but not strong enough to win an open conflict with them. Because the first thing politicians are gonna do is think "Holy poo poo, that could have been me" and then they'll remember that they can just throw cops and/or tanks at you until you're a threat no more. Would any Greek lurking in the thread be willing to tell us what's actually going over there? Is civil war an actual threat at this point, or is the situation closer to a mop-up?
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Sep 18, 2013 22:01
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ReV VAdAUL posted:Is the Czech Republic a democracy? Nah, they're a republic, units outside of their territory only cause 1 unhappiness and they don't fall into anarchy if a city revolts twice. Although they don't get that sweet nullification of corruption.
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Sep 25, 2013 19:10
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ReV VAdAUL posted:Italian fascists were also very focused on wiping out the Mafia in Sicily because they didn't like the competition. It is probably the closest the Italian government has gotten to beating the cosa nostra, albeit by being worse than them. It also backfired spectacularly.
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Sep 26, 2013 11:49
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weavernaut posted:The Weimar thought it had bigger problems than Hitler. I got 19 problems, but Hitler ain't one of th  
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Sep 29, 2013 22:09
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 Is there some crime they didn't commit?
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Oct 1, 2013 21:18
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Doomtalker posted:...flood? The Golden Dawn is being charged with a natural disaster? Google translate.
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Oct 4, 2013 19:05
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The Warszawa posted:What culture holds burglary as a tenet, what religion proclaims "thou shalt boost thy neighbor's poo poo from his home"? You know, those guys. Them, over there! Those guys slightly different than us! Git 'em! 
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Dec 31, 2013 20:15
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Install Windows posted:As said, that was Serbian nationalists who very much loved government so long as it was Serbian. Mlada Bosna (Young Bosnia, the group Princip belonged to) wasn't a Serbian organization. They were an odd mix of Bosnian students, socialists, anarchists, various nationalists, and everyone else willing to do crazy poo poo in order to topple Austria-Hungarian regime. They were greatly aided by the Black Hand (whose leader admitted planning the assassination), which was an even stranger organization - It started as a group of officers who wanted to bring down a dictatorship and institute a more democracy friendly royal family in Serbia (they did this by wiping out the Obrenovic dynasty and bringing back the Karadjordjevic dynasty), and turned into this weird nationalist anarchist assassin terrorist cult thing which tried to control the Serbian government (unsuccessfully, but they did have a lot of influence), bring down AH, and create a unified South Slav state (their leaders were executed in the 1917 Salonika trial before seeing this happen). And then, if you believe, there's their opposite organization, the White Hand, and things get even crazier from there.
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Jan 1, 2014 02:48
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Rutkowski posted:So your solution is to join them then and work with them? Come on, he didn't say that. Gather arguments that show that evil immigrant talk is bullshit, point out examples of immigrants doing good things, and stuff like that. While it would bring even more attention the whole 'immigrant danger' rhetoric, it would weaken the right wing "we're the only ones solving the problem" card. Or you could use a mild, mostly harmless form of national pride as a vent to reduce the amount of harmful one. Emphasize that people moving in means that the country is doing well (with subtle implications of WE ARE AWESOME), and that people should feel proud because of that. It might backfire if you argue for this the wrong way, or cause a different kind of harm (If I had a dollar for every time I heard/read a person from a Northern European country say "I can't be nationalist, I'm <nationality>" I'd be a rich man) but it could help. edit: Of course, this requires more effort than saying "You can't convince a fascist", so...
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Jan 6, 2014 18:59
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visceril posted:Does anybody have even an anecdotal example of a racist being convinced to be not racist? Yes
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Jan 6, 2014 19:44
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Hob_Gadling posted:This is stupid. Who comes off as more honest? For the sake of discussion, imagine you're a member of the SD/average guy they're reaching out to and tell us what the problems are. Just put a bolded clause saying that's not what you really think, since some of the people who post here have a really short attention span. We kinda need to know what they're saying to know how to counter them. edit: spellchecking my dad fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Jan 6, 2014 |
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Jan 6, 2014 20:09
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visceril posted:I don't understand. So we need to clone Nelson Mandela and have him go meet every racist? No. But you asked if there was even anectodal evidence of racists stopping being racists. Here's a more personal example related to a different issue. A few of my friends became a lot less homophobic when I explained to them the violence I, a straight person, had to suffer because someone spread the rumor of me being gay among some local thugs in my hometown. Humanize the issue. It won't always work, I'll grant you that, but you vastly underestimate people's ability to change their views when given the right arguments.
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Jan 6, 2014 20:31
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I was raised by Holocaust deniers. My father took me to neo-nazi rallies as a child. Around age 20 or so I suddenly realized that my faith in the cause had been steadily eroding away and I didn't believe it any more, and hadn't for some time. I have a friend who was raised in the exact same circumstances and stopped believing in the exact same ideals for the exact same reasons. I guess he isn't quite as unique as I thought. Do you ever have situations where you spontaneously use a (problematic) figure of speech you learned during your childhood and realize a moment too late what you just said? He has a bit of a problem with that.
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Jan 6, 2014 20:57
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You guys should take a shower.
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Jan 23, 2014 20:17
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Cerebral Bore posted:Actually, this is pretty much what Mussolini argued would happen in his "The Doctrine of Fascism", an eternal struggle against the Other, however that was defined. Yeah, people aren't joking when they say that in fascism, violence is the end, not (just)the means.
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Feb 5, 2014 10:10
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So, did anything happen?
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May 2, 2014 19:06
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With regards to ye olde "Gypsies are parasites" attitude, here's something interesting: A group of about 80 Roma from Kosovska Mitrovica set aside the aid they receive from the (Serbian) government due to their poverty, and donated it to flood relief. The Roma community from all over Europe donated a lot, particularly those from Sweden and Austria.
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May 22, 2014 14:24
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Rutkowski posted:Is there an article I can read about this? For the ones in Kosovska Mitrovica, here's an article in Serbian, you could probably use google translate for it. http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Drustvo/467479/Romi-iz-Kosovske-Mitrovice-socijalnu-pomoc-dali-ugrozenima-od-poplava (It's the first one I could find, there are probably better ones, but  )As for the Roma in the rest of Europe, it's stuff I've overheard on the news and from conversations with people.
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May 22, 2014 15:43
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Kyrie eleison posted:As for it not being populist sentiment, cultural unity is arguably the clearest example of 'populism' one could come up with. The left is keen to say American football is a lesser sport than the superior international sport of soccer, and yet to the American people, it remains popular. That's a case of people making a jab at obnoxiously smug Americans, certainly not something exclusive to the left.
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May 28, 2014 11:04
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nematode antipode posted:Nationalism is bigotry hiding behind a flag. We're all human god damned beings, and serving one country to the exclusion of people elsewhere only plays into the hands of the greedy, the power-hungry, and hate-mongers. It goes both ways. I wouldn't consider my identity as a Serb nearly as important as I do now if I didn't get put under some kind of pressure due to that identity every time I interacted with an international community, IRL and online. And people who tend to talk about multiculturalism have an unfortunate tendency to be completely blind to the fact that what they see as the default human society without weird tribal crap is what most of the world considers to be those people's culture. The result is that by talking about the pointlessness of nations, you're alienating a bunch of people because you're actually saying to them "Stop being such a barbarian and accept my superior culture!"
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May 28, 2014 17:59
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Kyrie eleison posted:Nationalism is the opposition to neoliberal policy. Neoliberal policy promotes free trade, open borders, monoculture, and global federalization. No. Where did you hear that?
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May 29, 2014 22:34
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SickZip posted:Also, Umberto Eco is an idiot and there's no such thing as Ur-Fascism or Eternal Fascism. Fascism refers to a political/economic movement that was relevant for 2 decades and was nonexistent before and dead afterwards. People don't "always revert to fascism" unless your labeling 90% of things that disagree with you as fascism. This belief is one of the reasons why fascism is returning, against all odds. We completely ignore all the warning signs until black shirted baldies start marching down the street. What do you think "Golden Dawn" is? Hell, to use an example from my country, what do you think "Obraz" is? I agree that certain groups use the word "fascism" to describe anyone they dislike, but that's completely irrelevant. This isn't an issue of the left - some conservative Russian media do it all the time, for example. Just because boy A cried wolf when there was none doesn't mean that boys B,C,D,E and F weren't eaten by a wolf after everyone rushed to defend boy A. my dad fucked around with this message at 12:24 on May 30, 2014 |
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May 30, 2014 12:19
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Oh, the things you can learn by being polite and asking questions... Dveri might up to something nasty for the upcoming football game between Serbia and Albania. One of their local branches was given money by the HQ in Belgrade to organize and send a number of their members to the game, and the context leads me to believe that something similar is being done in their other branches. I can only hope that this is just something along the lines of, like, their annual slur-shouting day gathering instead of something more violent. Dveri have been somewhat annoyed in the last month, to say the least. Belgrade Pride happened mostly without incident (well, the prime minister's brother got beaten up by a group of cops angry at the PM, and B92 TV's building was attacked by 30-ish rioters, resulting in injuries of 2 policemen, but the parade itself wasn't in danger at any point), the counter-parade (Family March, for ARE FAMILIES!!!) held by Dveri later that day was poorly attended and wasn't banned or harassed (which means they were denied the chance to blame the government for suppressing true Serbian families in favor of those satanic faggots), and our country was praised by a EU report for the rapid reforms we're undergoing (Dveri violently oppose joining EU). The funny thing is, I agree with them about not liking the current government. Of course, for very, very different reasons. For those guys, the PM's attitude "As far as I'm personally concerned, those fags can gently caress off forever, but as the government, we can't let anyone harass them" (said in a bit more PC way, of course) is waaaay too lefty. An incident that shows Serbia in a negative spotlight might be just what they need. The backlash against Serbia would cause anti-EU sentiment (for reasons I can understand all too well - sometimes I get the impression that's the only kind of spotlight we get, no matter what we do) and some other issues which would give Dveri a chance to swell their ranks and promote their ideas more. I'm really curious about the identity of their financial backers, but I'm quite unlikely to find that out on my own. Oh, well... Them's the brakes. How's the North doing? Any new developments?
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Oct 10, 2014 18:45
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Well, that thread went to fun places.
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Jan 7, 2015 18:37
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KoldPT posted:Macedonian is a made up identity that has to steal the iconography of a guy who died a million years ago in order to appear like they're better than the other slavs. Also, they really loving hate Greeks. A hundred years ago, I'd probably have agreed with you. Today? Not really. Not when so many people were born and died of old age accepting Macedonian (Slav) as their identity. Macedonian Slavs lived there ever since Slavs settled in the Balkans. Technically, what is now FYROM was a part of medieval Serbia and Bulgaria, as well as the Eastern Roman Empire, but eh. The new 'Macedonian' nationality emerged, like so many others, as a result of being hosed over by every neighbor and ruler they had. Historically, the Ottomans for obvious reasons, but then Muslim Albanians who used every surge of anti-Christian sentiment for a round of raids and pillage, then later the newly independent Greeks with their "nope, no Slavs in glorious Greek motherland", then Bulgarians with their "Y'all are Bulgarians now. excuse us while we burn down all your personal and historical documents", and then the post WW1 Serbian government that had its resources stretched too thin due to the whole 'got genocided' thing to handle Macedonian issues with non-hamfisted measures. The whole Alex the Great glorification thing is a product of modern nationalist root-searching which got out of hand - a bit like US and the obnoxious amounts of Roman esthetic in early public buildings. While cringeworthy, obsession with mocking it is usually a good way to spot European not-racists.
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Jan 8, 2015 16:03
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Crossposting:my dad posted:New far right coalition formed in Serbia. It's the usual suspects, Dveri and DSS (the party that used to be headed by Vojislav Koštunica, the guy who beat Milošević in the 2000 elections). They made a proclamation about their policies, it's the classics: anti-EU, pro-Serb-nationalism, pro-family, pro-church, et cetera... I don't think it's going to change anything (they don't have a lot of support), but at least it's nice to see DSS stop pretending they're not fascists at heart.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:54
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I apologize if I'm bringing one of the subjects of that thread here, but I'd like to ask the French regulars in this thread something, since I know very little about everyday stuff in France. Why is everyone talking about the murdered cartoonists as if they were racists? I mean, I understand the fear that this event is going to result in reprisals against Muslims, but I don't see an example of those cartoonists ever encouraging something like that.
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Jan 8, 2015 19:18
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To be fair, that screen is usually followed up by a coordinated nuclear strike on all your cities.
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Jan 9, 2015 19:52
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I love the double whammy of them wanting a political turn towards Russia, and Russia using them to demonstrate how the West is full of Nazis.
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Jan 18, 2015 03:48
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SaltyJesus posted:To be fair, if they seize some kind of power Russia'll work with them just the same. I'm pretty sure Russia is funding them. It's just that I find it darkly hilarious how well Russia does doublethink.
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Jan 18, 2015 13:56
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Kopijeger posted:Yes, but a large part of the reason that Russia doesn't consider itself to be "Western" is the fact that they are mostly Orthodox, and that doctrine originated in the greek-speaking Byzantine Empire. I'm sorry, what?
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Jan 18, 2015 14:14
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As for the current Russian definition of West, it's about as consistent as pudding. It's the other thing you said that bugged me. Kopijeger posted:Yes, but a large part of the reason that Russia doesn't consider itself to be "Western" is the fact that they are mostly Orthodox, and that doctrine originated in the greek-speaking Byzantine Empire. This couldn't possibly be more wrong. As for why, it would require a huge post, and would lead to a massive derail, so sorry for not giving an explanation.
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Jan 18, 2015 14:36
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The not-West part, not the Orthodox part.
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Jan 18, 2015 14:49
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Kopijeger posted:We may be using differing interpretations of what "Western" means. When I say that Russia does not consider itself "Western" I meant that their Orthodoxy is one of the most obvious cultural traits that distinguish them from the Catholic/Protestant "West". I guess they would still consider themselves part of "Christendom", especially when contrasted with non-Christian cultures to their East and South, but that is not quite the same thing as being "Western". The world didn't define itself by excluding itself from the West. The West defined itself by excluding the rest of the world.
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Jan 18, 2015 15:25
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