|
On a phone so can't do two quotes easily so on the issue of poorly dressed left wingers you have two issues. Firstly COINTELPRO in the US and Operation GLADIO in Europe worked very very hard to destroy organised left wing groups, with the destruction of the Black Panthers through means up to and including open assassination being a big example of a sharply dressed left wing group being destroyed. In general law enforcement is much more diligent in investigating and undermining the organised far left than they are the far right. On that note it is worth googling about how voting figures suggest the Greek police strongly support Golden Dawn. Secondly the idea of protest has been calcified in mould of the 1960s anti-conformism. This has quite deliberately done by the media and the powerful but it isn't like left wingers are unwilling to embrace it. Essentially in the 60s dressing like a hippy and not following the rules of society more generally genuinely was a radical act. However by the 80s this kind of self expression had wholly been co-opted in consumerism. Buy clothes that represent who YOU are and be a real rebel that makes the rich richer and in no way threatens the status quo. So strongly has marketing associated being well dressed / cohesive that many left wingers genuinely do not want snappy uniforms etc for fear it will cause their organisation to become right wing and unpleasant. To be fair this is linked to entirely reasonable fears of infiltration and co-option but it does hinder putting across an organised image. It also makes it quite easy for right wing concern trolling to imply and organisation that may be putting across an organised image is suspect. Nckdictator posted:^^^^^ If Breivik's (another example of the authorities' soft touch on fascists) writing is representative they hate the Jews still but divide them into two groups. Zionists are to be tolerated because they are killing lots of Muslims and will provide a dumping ground in Israel once the fascists are in power and want rid of local Jews. "Liberal Jews" (their label) like Chomsky get the same old Nazi style hate, they're enemies within and need to be "dealt" with.
|
#
¿
Aug 10, 2013 09:25
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 13, 2024 13:39 |
|
|
Elliptical Dick posted:In what way did the Norwegian authorities go soft on Breivik? I apologise I was unclear there. The Norwegians weren't soft on Breivik per set but the man killed dozens of people, was clearly connected to fascist groups across Europe and openly admitted to being a fascist. Yet authorities across Europe did not come out to denounce fascism let alone crack down on it. Even the groups he was most closely connected to received no censure, the EDL isn't even classified as a hate group for instance. All Muslims are consistently painted as potential terrorists and yet the violent fascist groups with a direct connection to Breivik are not even mentioned to be similar to him only a few years later. Also no one disputes he is bad guy but for someone who killed dozens of children he gets very little hate from the media or culture more generally. When it is time for another civil liberty to be taken away the danger of Muslim terrorists is shouted from the rooftops but the possibility of another Fascist mass murderer of kids is never even mentioned.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 10, 2013 09:59
|
|
|
I will say the EDL's utter lack of hygiene and composure is probably a factor in them not being more popular. The BNP when it managed to conceal it's awfulness behind suits and pretence at being a genuine political party did rather better at garnering support. UKIP lead by a posh man at least for a while did even better than that. This is all anecdotal of course.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 10, 2013 11:05
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:A poll from May had Le Pen leading Hollande by 4% (latest on wikipedia), 24% of the country is substantial even if they haven't turned that support into seats because of France's voting system. To be fair Hollande is extremely unpopular due to pretending to be fairly left wing in the election and then adhering to neoliberal orthodoxy once in power. It is still extremely worrying but his personal unpopularity makes things look somewhat worse than they are. Jedit posted:Then you need to open your eyes, because I'm not spinning anything - I'm reporting exactly what happened in 1936. History may recognise that Cable Street was the result of decent people standing up for their Jewish neighbours, but Mosley was able to win a lot of short-term public sympathy by painting it as the Jews responding to the Home Secretary's refusal to ban the BUF march at their demand by orchestrating a violent attack against legitimate authority figures defending the BUF's democratic rights. Can you offer evidence of this? I'd be interested to see it. More importantly though did the BUF try any more incitement marches after getting beaten up by the residents of cable street? Because if it stopped them from doing that then some armchair fascists moaning about "democratic rights" is of no consequence. ReV VAdAUL fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Aug 10, 2013 |
|
#
¿
Aug 10, 2013 21:09
|
|
|
LP97S posted:Christ, wasn't there a war fought about this a few decades ago or something? FDR used political violence to trample on the democratic rights of some German fascists. FDR was in the moral sewer, what a bad man.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 10, 2013 21:26
|
|
|
Fojar38 posted:I think that you're arguing past one another here. I don't think that Jedit is saying that fascists aren't bad or that they shouldn't be fought against on an international level. I think he's talking domestically, and going out and beating fascists up does absolutely nothing but play into their hands. Also fighting fascism on an international level really plays into their hands given nationalism is such a huge part of fascism. The Allies going to war with the Nazis absolutely proved Hitler's statements and actions preparing for conflict against the "enemies of Germany" thus by your own logic WW2 was bad and legitimised Hitler. quote:The public is not won over with violence, and contrary to what some people seem to think, public opinion is everything in a democracy. Why are significant portion of citizens of Russia or Greece continuing to support the openly violent fascists in their countries then?
|
|
#
¿
Aug 11, 2013 01:16
|
|
|
I am intrigued by the fact that while the handwringers are at great pains to work out who exactly are violent fascists (a tautology) they accuse anyone who suggests violence may be necessary to combat fascism of being a Stalinist and thus just as bad. Ardennes posted:To be perfectly honest, I would be Jobbik along with the Golden Dawn in that scenario. They just happen to support a specific variant of Hungarian fascism. Indeed Jobbik have actively undermined democracy and civil society in multiple ways whereas with FN etc we have only reasonable and very strong suspicions they would also do so. So Jobbik is factually much less of an edge case.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 11, 2013 09:28
|
|
|
Chamale posted:No, the point is that if we try to combat "fascism" by immediately resorting to violence, it is too easy for legitimate political movements to be labelled as fascism and destroyed. Oh it has become scare quotes fascism now has it? It is sadly impossible given you and your handwringer ilk are all likely comfortable white liberals but I'd love to see how quickly scare quote equivocal fascism would become real fascism we have to fight right now if you and your community were targeted as enemies fascist thugs started down your streets. At the start of this thread fascist movements were clearly identified as doing highly provocative marches or open attacks against racial and sexual minorities and communities. However by implying the definition of fascism that needs to fought could be malleable and complaining a thread about the rise of fascism is not addressing the utterly moribund threat of Stalinism you are pushing a mantra of utter inaction that empowers monstrous people and leaves the vulnerable high and dry. Then of course you say in places like Russia where you can't equivocate away the dangers of fascism that things have gone too far and it'd be civil war so things are too late and welp nukes so nothing can be done internationally either. It honestly boggles my mind you handwringers can oppose the Jewish Londoners defending their community in the Battle of Cable when the exact same ideology of their attackers would commit genocide against millions of their coreligionists.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 11, 2013 10:03
|
|
|
poidinger posted:Watched a German documentary some years ago on Nazism as Artistic Vision or something to that effect (that I absolutely cannot remember the actual title of) that claimed that the Nazi contribution to prepping and launching the Second World War was the goal of returning Europe to Rome-inspired romanticized "unifying violence/barbarity," something something, Hitler's preferred grotesque Greek/Roman-inspired architecture being designed with how it would look thousands of years into the future as ruins a la the Parthenon or Colosseum, the use of the Roman salute, the repeating Eagle motif, with a distinctly local Germanic twist with the Nordic/Aryan, Nietzsche/Wagner flavoring etc. etc. While Jonathan Meades is not a great person this is a pretty good and amusing look at Nazi architecture and their desire to hark back to various idealised pasts. It is interesting that the Nazi desire to return to rurality (cities are wicked places in much right wing thought) didn't get that much attention. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTfbBvIEbfA
|
|
#
¿
Aug 17, 2013 14:43
|
|
|
Thank you I'll give that a look.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 17, 2013 16:16
|
|
|
The big worry now is that the elements of the establishment right wing that had previously been making noises about allying with GD will try and recruit the members now cast adrift and attempt to rehabilitate the GD program. Given how far the establishment, especially the police, have allowed this to go it may be it is the name of Golden Dawn being outlawed rather than their tactics or aims. The Night of the Long Knives was necessitated by the German military's opposition to the actions and makeup of the SA but while the SA was violently purged the SS quickly stepped into the vacuum that created and Nazism as a whole didn't go away.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 18, 2013 23:41
|
|
|
ughhhh posted:Just so you know, people are saying that the the legislation as it is worded right now leave things very vague. The government seems to be using the language of "two extreams" to see what they can ban. People are afraid that this legislation could be used simply to suppress any outside political groups (such as anarchist groups and communists groups not affiliated with parties). If that is the case it seems very likely the police will focus far more on left wing groups than GD. Heck at this point they'd probably happily work alongside concerned citizen group Dolden Gawn to root out those awful lefty extremists who are causing so much trouble.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 19, 2013 09:26
|
|
|
Bring in a bunch of Scandinavian coppers and remake the Varangian guard.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 25, 2013 14:27
|
|
|
Is the Czech Republic a democracy?
|
|
#
¿
Sep 25, 2013 19:04
|
|
|
I think at the base of it fascism is organised crime. The Nazis had stuff like the Volkswagen (people's car) subscription service where allegedly you got a car after paying enough installments. However the Nazis pocketed the money and didn't give anyone a car. You also had gauleiter behaving identically to how street bosses did. Plus the Nazis were diligent in sending rival organised criminals to concentration camps. Italian fascists were also very focused on wiping out the Mafia in Sicily because they didn't like the competition. It is probably the closest the Italian government has gotten to beating the cosa nostra, albeit by being worse than them.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 26, 2013 11:37
|
|
|
Riso posted:That is incorrect. The reason nobody received a car was because of the war. Could you cite a source on this, it seems pretty amazing that through the entirety of the war the Nazi government would sit on a large amount of cash and even more so it was kept in one place for the Red Army to specifically be able to loot a "Volkswagen fund" 6 years later. Randarkman posted:The Nazis also encouraged an environment of intense competition between and within their various agencies, ministries, departments and corporations (while not owned by the state, they were closely invested in and dependent on the state). This led to a culture of distrust, with many people getting a head through turning on their higher ups, almost literally stabbing them in the back. And rival agencies would withhold information from each other and sometimes actively work against one another's interests. All this competition for the favor of Hitler ofcourse led to him being even more securely enshrined at the top of the pyramid of Nazi Germany, as any one powerful enough to contend with him had to constantly watch their backs for the number of other people and agencies who would happily throw them under the bus to get closer to Hitler. One of my favourite anecdotes about this is that two of Himmler's deputies plotted to kill his masseuse because the guy was getting too much face time with him. Himmler found out and put a stop to it but that was the level of paranoia and disunity going on. A more important example would be the Graf Zeppelin, the Nazi aircraft carrier. Given the importance of aircraft carriers in WW2 you may be surprised you haven't heard of it. It spent the entirety of the war in a nearly completed state on the Kiel canal mainly because Goering (head of the Luftwaffe) deeply resented the idea of a fleet air arm being created, something which would have undercut his powerbase. my dad posted:It also backfired spectacularly.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 27, 2013 13:32
|
|
|
Frostwerks posted:Ahh gently caress, now I really want to hear the nitty gritty details. Very briefly, with the excuse of not wanting unions to obstruct the war machine against the Nazis (something I don't think was ever likely) the US government worked with the Mafia to massively extend their control of Unions and dock territory in return for a guarantee x amount of material moved through the docks unobstructed each month. The real reason for support was the rollback against the progressive era that intensified after the war. This working relationship on the docks lead to someone, probably the OSS, realising that the Mafia, a body already well acquainted with smuggling and concealing weapons of various kinds, could be used to smuggle weapons to the Italian resistance and build a US friendly resistance faction given that a lot of the resistance were Communists or Socialists. Make no mistake though, while Mussolini was comically inept at pretty much everything he did get the Sicilian Mafia (I have no idea about how effective he was against mainland Mafias like the Ndrangheta or the Camorra) on the ropes and without US support they may well have been completely defeated. The US government, or at least parts of the US government, retained a working relationship with the Mafia at least into the 1950s, with a strong level of cooperation between the CIA and Cuba in their attempts to kill Fidel Castro.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 27, 2013 14:50
|
|
|
Riso posted:Germany had no real money problems during the war because they plundered everyone else, and the Soviets did the same to Germany, so duh? So could you please cite a source that shows that the money was kept intact as a Volkswagen fund and that the Soviets looted said fund? DynamicSloth posted:A high profile trial helped to raise him to national figure and the subsequent slap on the wrist really couldn't have worked out better for Hitler then if his bozo squad had somehow taken over Bavaria. This is definitely true. Now I'd say what really got the Nazis into power was right wing elites scrabbling around for a counter to the left following the Wall Street Crash, without elite support and especially Hugenberg's media empire Hitler would have been much less likely to gain power. However without his notoriety from the Munich Putsch he may not have been on the elite's radar. So a lot of media attention over the arrests and a slap on the wrist sentence could be beneficial to GD but elite/state tolerance or active support is still the biggest danger. As an aside, if you're unfamiliar with the Munich Putsch it is worth reading up on, like most things the Nazis did it was something of a farce. Which is both funny to read about but a stark warning that just because Fascists often come across as inept does not mean they aren't dangerous.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 29, 2013 17:13
|
|
|
Austria had a general election the other day and the far right "Freedom party" secured 21.4% of the vote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24321045 this makes them the third largest party in the legislature and due to a grand coalition seemingly the official opposition. They're not third by much either with the two bigger parties getting 27% and 23% respectively. You'd have thought a far right party doing so well in Hitler's birthplace (and willing part of the Third Reich) would get more attention but as the old joke goes Austrians convinced the world Hitler was German and Mozart was Austrian.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 30, 2013 11:25
|
|
|
Strudel Man posted:This is certainly a thing that people say, but different tribes were murdering each other at the dawn of humanity. While the specific character of modern racism may well be a product of our history, it's utopian to imagine that the underlying tensions can easily be swept away. The fact that Northumbrians no longer feel emnity towards Mercians shows that these tribal conflicts are not inherent, they can and have stopped being an issue. Heck the French and the English had been at war on and off for over a thousand years but Wilhelm II's fuckups over the space of a few years made them into solid allies to the present day. Groups that previously had enmity learning to live together isn't just something people say, it is a historical fact over and over again. Also given the fascists ITT are claiming to be talking about "facts": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTfbBvIEbfA&t=1112s EDIT: Also, if different cultures lead to conflict why have the two largest conflicts in human history been fought between Anglo-Saxon empires? ReV VAdAUL fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Sep 30, 2013 |
|
#
¿
Sep 30, 2013 23:10
|
|
|
Omi-Polari posted:Could you say, if the FPO became Austria's governing party, that it would voluntarily relinquish power once it loses an election? If FPO became the senior party in government and especially if they got a majority they would almost certainly follow in Fidesz's footsteps in Hungary and subvert all machinery of state to serve themselves while leaving the country nominally a democracy. Torrannor posted:You are looking at the USA and think: "Yes, directly elected politicians are a good idea."? ReV VAdAUL fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Oct 7, 2013 |
|
#
¿
Oct 7, 2013 10:31
|
|
|
Out monstering fascists seems like a race to the bottom decent people couldn't win and one that would cost allies and general good will. Plus of course the police would be much more diligent in investigating crimes against fascists than ones committed by them so it would just be putting decent people at further disadvantage.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 4, 2013 14:04
|
|
|
John Charity Spring posted:I thought it was pretty uncontroversial that there's a lot of support in former Eastern Bloc countries for how things used to be, with the exception of Poland and the Czech Republic. This isn't even necessarily support for socialism, just a fairly common perception that they were better off before. At the very least even if they don't especially want to go back to communism many people who grew up and lived in former communist countries think they had perfectly reasonable normal lives prior to the collapse of the USSR rather than it being the hell world we're told it was. That's not to say some places weren't awful just that for most people it wasn't all that bad.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 22, 2013 09:46
|
|
|
Obdicut posted:There's nothing sectarian at all in this, though. We're arguing about an interpretation of a work. I do love right wingers so consistently saying how terrible Fascism and its treatment of the Jews was, thus we really need to hate Muslims as much as possible.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 19, 2014 01:19
|
|
|
On the note of Jobbyk, this article: http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/jan/22/fascist-hungarian-gabor-vona-immigrant-uk states that their leader has spoken positively of Islam, was that a one off or are they consistently well disposed (or at least not outright hateful) towards Muslims? If that's the case it is an interesting contrast to the rest of Europe where fascists have been using Islamophobia as much as possible and tending to adhere to Breivik's manifesto when it comes to antisemitism; tolerate Israel and Zionist Jews because they're useful for now, hate non-Zionists as usual.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 23, 2014 10:26
|
|
|
Entropia posted:
Would you say the current Hungarian government are pro-democracy given their implementation of the 2011 constitution? Or are you saying dictatorship is possible, just not fascist dictatorship?
|
|
#
¿
Jan 23, 2014 16:57
|
|
|
HighClassSwankyTime posted:Keep in mind that while Hitler cooperated with capitalists (Krupp, Henry Ford, etc.) he was pretty anti-capitalist himself. His anti-capitalism was born out of deeply rooted antisemitism/racism and not any leftist ideology. Might be worth to keep in mind when discussing fascist anti-capitalism. Could you elaborate on that? As far as I'm aware the Nazi approach to capitalists and the economy was 'um just keep doing what you're doing I guess' at least until Speer took over. There didn't seem to be resentment so much as no strong feelings in any direction.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 2, 2014 11:13
|
|
|
Is there much expectation that radical leftism will return to prominence? It seems things are very similar to the 30s, in terms of context and elite power, and like the 30s the elite don't like but will tolerate fascism but absolutely will not give an inch to far left under any circumstances. The left, let alone the radical left are so much weaker than they were in the 30s it seems like there is no chance of the left being able to reassert itself.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 2, 2014 18:52
|
|
|
computer parts posted:Fascism is also much weaker than in the 30s in everywhere but Europe, though, and nationalism in general is not that high. Well this is the Fascism in Europe thread so that was the context I was referring to. Still the Far Right are doing very well in the US to in the form of the increasingly well funded Tea Party: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/02/02/us/politics/rebel-conservatives-lead-way-in-gop-fund-raising.html?referrer= and if you don't count Israel as European then that is another example of the far right doing very well.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 2, 2014 19:07
|
|
|
computer parts posted:Far right does not mean fascist and one of the defining points of Fascism in the 30s was its worldwide appeal. You don't see that here. Nonetheless we have an increasing shift to the right and far right parties and ideas can and do legitimise fascism. There is no corresponding resurgence of left wing parties thus your assertion that 'fascism is weaker (outside of Europe) too' is irrelevant. We have fertile conditions for fascism to grow or expand in the face of likely large economic crises to come.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 2, 2014 19:25
|
|
|
R. Mute posted:Goku actually has a good point and it's much more relatable to the public than most other solutions. While you can berate people for being racist when they complain about Roma crime, it's much more productive to say: While the level of criminal activity of the Roma is greatly exaggerated, there is a problem with crime in their community. This problem isn't caused by them being Roma, it's caused by the systematic oppression they've experienced for centuries and the failure of the nation state of giving a framework to their lifestyle. Thus the solution to these specific problems of crime won't be to remove the Roma from your country or by having law enforcement target them specifically, it'll be by fighting those forms of oppression and by providing them a framework within which they can thrive. This was my read on what Goku had to say also. This thread has spent an awful lot of words examining why poor and disgruntled whites decide to become fascists looking at social, cultural and economic factors without exonerating them for the atrocities of fascism or saying all whites are bad. Goku seems to be applying that same method to the actions of Roma people and yet posters seem to view this as utterly abhorrent?
|
|
#
¿
Mar 7, 2014 00:24
|
|
|
computer parts posted:Oh, so white supremacism is okay if you have a good pension system, good to know. All Western nations are bad in their own similar but unique ways, trying to score points about how your nation is differently bad seems pretty redundant?
|
|
#
¿
Mar 7, 2014 00:28
|
|
|
Germany probably won't openly back a Fascist party but as we saw with Greece last election, Merkel et al aren't apathetic and will put a tremendous amount of effort in to preventing left wing partirs gaining power. With the left unable to deliver for angry people a Fascist party that maybe isn't endorsed but is tolerated will be a major beneficiary. Capitalist elites don't like fascism but they take it over left wing parties every time.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 1, 2014 14:20
|
|
|
drilldo squirt posted:It's really funny to see Europe fall apart while they run out of their colonialism money. Germany has loads of money from its colonies?
|
|
#
¿
Nov 1, 2014 23:23
|
|
|
Nintendo Kid posted:Because Europe is currently doing that so well? Would you say a privatised postal service is a causal factor in the rise in European Fascism? Do you think the US Postal service has helped prevent faster growth of the militia movement in the US?
|
|
#
¿
Nov 2, 2014 01:59
|
|
|
Nintendo Kid posted:I'd say that any country that doesn't have government run postal services is idiotic. How does that relate to the rise of Fascism in Europe?
|
|
#
¿
Nov 2, 2014 02:22
|
|
|
Nintendo Kid posted:How does your posting relate to it? Pick a post of mine and I'll explain it to you.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 2, 2014 03:51
|
|
|
Nintendo Kid posted:Ok, this one. You forgot to quote a post.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 2, 2014 04:02
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 13, 2024 13:39 |
|
|
namesake posted:Strangely I don't know if there will be much overall change here in the UK because of this; our street thug racist groups (National Front, English Defense League) have really been nothing for a while now because they are being abandoned for our xenophobic anti-EU party (United Kingdom Independance Party) but UKIP is trying to be a bit more acceptable to the general public in the run up to our general election (they're delisting people and kicking others out for being openly racist) so we might just have the usual chorus of denouncements from the political heads and then everyone turns back to their usual business. The main thing it will do is enable Farage to opine about things "people are worried about" that are more openly Islamophobic.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 7, 2015 19:45
|
|