A return of Fascism in Europe?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > A return of Fascism in Europe?

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

OwlBot 2000 posted:

I agree with ReV VAdAUL about the causes, but I think it's time for left-wing groups to get over the "counterculture" image. It's just not appealing to anyone, and while bad clothes, long hair, poor fitness and sporadic showering might have been radical in the 1960s, it's just harmful now. Look like competent, attractive people who have it together, and you'll have an easier time recruiting the same.

This kind of bullshit, particularly the 'sporadic showering' stuff is just a right-wing talking point dressed up in slightly different language, like 'dirty, unwashed hippy/lefty'. If you want to talk about the power of symbols, organised groups of men with identical uniforms and things, that's one thing, but I sincerely doubt that people are really going 'oh, I must join Golden Dawn, they have such wonderful hygiene!'

Ocean Book posted:

Fakie edit - Another subject related to fascist psychology would be opposition to the process of subject-object inversion (or commodity fetishism) that is the result of capitalist modes of production. Loosely, subject-object inversion is when objects (commodities) determine the movement of subjects (humans) through the logic and power of market discipline. The tradition of subjects (humans) determining the movement of objects (objects) is subverted. Identification with violent nationalism is a way for the subject to re-assert some of their lost subjectivity. For more on this, see Marx, Foucault, Heidegger.

I always like to see people quoting Foucault. But how does this factor into the aggressive push for business that fascism represents? I'd say in this respect, commodity is still fetishised, it's just a different type. That resistance against certain types of commodities gets co-opted into the accepted networks of power as an exercise of resistance to be quashed, and instead, new commodities that determine worth become important, be they flags, uniforms, and other symbols of power. It's also possible to argue that it's not the commodities that are the source of contention, but who possesses them/prevents them from being possessed by the 'right' people.

Pesmerga fucked around with this message at 10:29 on Aug 10, 2013

# ¿ Aug 10, 2013 10:25

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Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Ardennes posted:

I don't know if Marxists in clean uniforms would play up too much on the local news either. Anyway you need some type of organization and purpose before you start dressing everyone up in a uniform.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that the left needed to get some swanky new threads. It was more that if we were discussing what attracts people (rather than media attention) to political movements, I can accept that symbols of power and unity do play a part, particularly to those who consider themselves disenfranchised and seeking a sense of identity. While laughing at the suggestion that the left has a unique and movement-crushing issue with personal hygiene.

Unfortunately, in that respect, the left is not particularly good at symbols of power that haven't been co-opted and commodified as symbols of harmless resistance (for example, Che Guevara t-shirts, soviet flags, the hammer and sickle etc), and the unity sucks.

# ¿ Aug 10, 2013 10:42

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Jedit posted:

No, if racist elements weren't taking advantage of social and economic turmoil we wouldn't be in the poo poo we're in. "Fighting" fascism by sending out your own squads of skinheaded boot boys isn't going to fix it, it's just going to put violent scum on both sides. And at that point we are lost, because there will be nobody fighting fascism any more - just a difference of opinion in who should receive the brutal beating in order to "preserve our unity".

So, in your opinion the battle of Cable Street was wrong then?

# ¿ Aug 10, 2013 13:49

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

weavernaut posted:

They're still a laughing stock. Just a better-organised one than the BNP?

No, seriously, I've heard no news of right-wing violence in Germany, especially not on the scale of Hungary, Greece, Russia et al, so posting photos of the NDP to prove me wrong when I say that Germany is very much unlikely to go fascist is idiotic. Germany is stable and the last time it was unstable was directly thanks to the Nazis. They're not keen on repeating the experience.

Ever hear of the Bosphorous killings?

Today's Zaman posted:

Cover-up over neo-Nazi murders in Germany

In 2003 the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany ruled that banning the right-wing extremist National Democratic Party (NPD) -- the most significant neo-Nazi party to emerge since 1945, which campaigns on an anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic platform -- was unconstitutional.

The reason was that the NPD's leadership was infiltrated by informants from the German national security agency, the Office for the Protection of the Constitution (BfV). In its reasoning, the court said it could not ban a party whose policies may have been shaped in part by government agents. German magazine Spiegel reported that there were more than 130 informants in the party, and intelligence services were concerned that more than 100 could be exposed if the NPD was banned.

If we follow the reasoning behind the German court's decision, it is clear that the federal government knew very well what the NPD and its associates were up to since the beginning. In other words, German officials could not claim ignorance for the killings of eight Turkish and one Greek citizen -- apparently committed by neo-Nazi suspects who were affiliated with the NPD. It sounds like a joke but German prosecutors are now asking how the ultra-right racist group called the National Socialist Underground (NSU) could have stayed undetected for over a decade -- until November of last year, when two members were found dead in a burnt-out mobile home and a third, Beate Zsch�pe, turned herself in to police.

Some claim there was a cover-up of the murders of Turks within the German security apparatus. Others say some factions within the government supported neo-Nazi gangs or at least turned a blind eye to the activities of these racist groups. In either case, it certainly gives credence to a widely circulated conspiracy theory that the German national intelligence agency has unfortunately become a tool used by authorities to profile immigrant groups and minorities for harassment. For instance, the BfV shamefully disclosed that an employee of the agency was actually present in April 2006 when two members of the NSU shot and killed a 21-year-old Turk. As the saying goes, there is no smoke without fire.

Further fueling suspicions, a report earlier this week detailed the German government's effort to silence the relatives of victims murdered by neo-Nazis by offering monetary compensation. It appears that Angela Merkel's government rushed to contain the damage inflicted by new revelations of links between the state and racist groups. According to the news report, compensation came with strings attached. As long as victims and their families agree to refrain from filing lawsuits against Germany over the tragic incidents, they would receive the money. The deal was sweet from the start; some victims received their first installment from the Ministry of Justice without even asking for it. A spokesperson for Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger said victims' families may be eligible to claim more compensation following an assessment of their situation. For all intents and purposes this is �hush money� intended to prevent further embarrassment for the German government.

For years German authorities have downplayed the significance of racist extremist movements and trivialized their existence, possibly out of guilt for Germany's Nazi past. When investigating the murders of Turks, authorities did not even look into racist groups. Rather, they focused on family members and other Turks as possible suspects, doubly victimizing Turkish families and further aggravating their pain. Considering the record of the German government in this matter, I suppose we have to take the words of Merkel with a grain of salt and approach the situation with caution. In November she promised a full investigation of the murders in a speech to the lower house of Parliament, saying �Our responsibility to the victims is to undertake everything possible to clear up these horrible crimes.� She acknowledged that German security services made �numerous failures� in allowing neo-Nazis to slip through their fingers. The same credibility problem also applies to the German Federal Parliament (the Bundestag), which last month established a commission to study how German security organizations failed to discover killings perpetrated by far right extremists in Germany.

Many analysts believe the NSU and other neo-Nazi groups cannot freely operate in Germany under the radar unless they receive political cover from government agencies or prominent parties like the NPD. It is interesting to note that that the NPD, which gets about one million euros from taxpayers in Germany, continues to expand its support base, especially among youth in economically distressed areas. It has already won seats in two state assemblies, although it has not yet won any at the federal parliament. There is compelling evidence linking neo-Nazi groups to the NPD.

On Wednesday, German police detained a 31-year-old man named Carsten S. who was a former top NPD official in the party's chapter in the eastern German city of Jena, where the neo-Nazi cell was based. He was the second NPD official accused of aiding the murderous neo-Nazi terror group. In November 2011, German police also arrested 35-year-old Ralf Wohlleben in the same city. Wohlleben, who was a senior NPD official in the state of Thuringia, is suspected of providing the group with weapons and ammunition. While hailing these detentions, Turkish officials also worry that the investigation will not find the real masterminds who plotted these murders. The fact that the neo-Nazi group was able to get legal documents under false names and successfully evade detection for 11 years raises questions of who in the government provided shelter for these gang members.

There is a growing sense of frustration among Turkish cabinet members that Germany is not doing enough to expose neo-Nazi groups, but rather taking steps to cover up the murders of more than 150 immigrants who have been killed at the hands of different right-wing extremist groups since 1990. I recently spoke with Bekir Bozdağ, the deputy prime minister, who is responsible for expatriates. He was highly critical of the German investigations that failed to assuage the pain in the hearts of Turkish people. He said that the mysterious neo-Nazi murders should be quickly solved. �Otherwise we will have encouraged the potential killers and invited new murders,� he warned.

This is not the first time, and certainly will not be the last time, that Turkey has warned Germany about the rise of racism, anti-Semitism, xenophobia and Islamophobia. Ankara is worried that the deepening economic crisis in Europe and soaring unemployment may exacerbate the situation for Turks in Germany and other European countries. It is a fact that 68 of the 88 foreigners whom the NSU gang planned to kill were Turks. The list also included a German Jewish legislator for the Green Party. Ankara has established a committee to record and follow racist incidents aimed at Turks in Germany, while the Foreign Ministry has instructed its embassy and consular officers to report anti-Turkish patterns in the country.

Bozdağ was unequivocally clear that the Turkish government will keep a close eye on what Germany does with respect to some three million Turks living there. �We will hold the German government accountable for the safety and security of Turks,� he emphasized.

Of course, given the fact that it's a Turkish newspaper, the focus is predominantly on the impact on Turkish citizens and the Turkish government response. But what about the 'Nazi towns' in the east?

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/20/far-right-extremists-in-east-germany-quietly-building-a-town-for-neo-nazis/

quote:

Far-right extremists in eastern Germany quietly building a town for neo-Nazis

Next to a mural showing an idealized Aryan family, Gothic script declares that the village in eastern Germany is �free, social, national�. The signpost next to it once pointed the way to Hitler�s birthplace, 530 miles away in Austria, until a court order forced villagers to take it down.

The echoes of the Third Reich are quite deliberate. In Jamel, a tiny collection of red brick farmhouses fringed by forest, dozens of villagers describe themselves as Nazis and a majority turns out to vote for the far Right.

This is a place with little welcome for strangers. Rottweilers bark incessantly. A shaved-headed man shouts his own warning, while a woman shrieks an obscenity from her window.

Jamel is for some the tip of the iceberg; an indication of how the far Right in Germany is open and active, especially in areas of former East Germany where jobs are scarce.

This month, in Munich, the opening stages of a shocking trial have given further cause for introspection in a country which is being forced to confront the violent racism which pervades parts of its society.

Beate Zschaepe, 38, an apprentice gardener from Jena, East Germany, is accused of complicity in a series of racially motivated murders carried out by a neo-Nazi cell, the National Socialist Underground. The cell is being held responsible for the murder of eight men of Turkish origin, who were shot in the head at point-blank range.

Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, has apologized to the victims� families, describing the killings as �a disgrace for our country.�

But the case has raised questions about official complacency. German security services and police failed to pursue tipoffs about the NSU, instead suspecting the immigrant victims of having links with organized crime.

Figures published by the German government showed that crime attributed to the far Right is rising, with more than 17,000 cases last year � of which 842 were violent acts. Authorities estimate that there are more than 22,000 Right-wing extremists in the country. Nearly half, around 9,800, are regarded by Germany�s security services as violent.

The figures have prompted politicians to promise a crackdown on extremist groups.

Yet in Jamel, Stefan Koester, a regional MP for the far-Right German National Democratic Party (NPD), boasts that his party won 6% of the vote in elections in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern � the state that includes the small village � and now has five MPs in the regional parliament.

He said: �We�re threatened on one side by immigration, on the other by low birthrate. Other parties want to attract human capital from other countries and we say that we can�t do that. Our families must have more children.�

The NPD emphasizes its communal activities � it hosts free drop-in sessions offering advice to citizens, and organizes children�s festivals. Its campaign posters show families playing on the beach with the slogan: �Stop the death of our people. The country needs German children.�

Officially, the NPD says that it rejects violence �for political ends�, but the threat seems to lurk in the background. Two years ago, Sven Krueger, an elected representative of the NPD in Jamel, was sentenced to four years in prison for illegal possession of a machine gun and an automatic pistol.

Krueger, a demolition contractor whose firm has the slogan �We are the boys for rough stuff,� was the driving force behind the neo-Nazi domination of Jamel and his family still live in the village.

He began buying up properties and encouraging supporters of the far Right to settle alongside him. More than half the families are now open neo-Nazi supporters.

Birgit Lohmeyer, an author, moved from Hamburg to Jamel with her husband 10 years ago. When the Lohmeyers bought their house, they were told that a �notorious neo-Nazi� lived here. Since then, they have become the minority. �It�s very tense,� Lohmeyer said. �My husband and I are the outlaws here.

�We are insulted, we are threatened, we are sabotaged in various ways. People drive their cars in front of ours and force us to brake. There is damage to property. Our postbox has been labelled with Nazi stickers and been stolen.

�There was a sticker saying, �No place for neo-Nazis�, and it was altered to read, �No place without neo-Nazis�.� The Lohmeyers have refused to be driven out. Lohmeyer said: �Our house is everything we wished for. No one will take it from us, neo-Nazis or anyone else.�

Some in the village insist there is no threat. One Jamel resident, a shaved-headed man whose back was covered in the Nordic-style tattoos favoured by the far Right, said: �Everyone is happy. Everybody�s friendly here, does everything together.�

Five miles up the road from Jamel, the constituency office of the NPD shares a building with the business address of Krueger�s firm, Krueger Demolition. A poster outside illustrates the vision of communal life offered by the NPD; there are white, Aryan-looking children taking part in a sack race, images of a torchlit parade, and shaved-headed youths beating military-style drums.

The fences are topped with razor wire and there is a prison camp-style watchtower. The NPD claims it is at risk of attack by Left-wing groups.

The building appears empty, but is evidently under surveillance; within minutes of outsiders arriving, a car pulls up with two heavy-set men inside. One of them rolls down a window to shout: �Get back to the west!� The car sweeps past again minutes later.

Except for cities such as Berlin, Dresden and Leipzig, eastern Germany has not shared in the economic success of the west since unification, creating fertile ground for extremists. A report last year said unemployment in the eastern states stood at 10.3 per cent, compared with six per cent in the rest of Germany. The east�s output per capita was less than three quarters that of the west.

The NSU, the tight-knit group to which Ms Zschaepe allegedly belonged, was based in Zwickau, in the eastern state of Thuringia.

Simone Oldenburg, a Left-wing politician who helps run a youth club near Jamel, said: �For 10 years the criminal acts of the NSU were not discovered. The state was asleep. It was dismissive. One had become blind to these crimes, and through this laxity, opened further the ground for Right-wing thinking and crimes.�

In places like Jamel, the far Right offers a message which combines an emphasis on communal activities with a defensive attitude to the outside world.

Koester, the regional MP for the NPD, said: �Many people want a different kind of politics. A politics which is social, family-friendly. Other parties don�t pursue these policies. The NPD offers an alternative.�

Across the east, the population is forecast to decline. In Germany as a whole, migration has halted this demographic decline. But migrants � particularly highly educated young people from southern Europe � have been drawn to the affluent south and west of Germany rather than the east.

Koester said his region was heading for a �population catastrophe�, adding: �In 1990, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern had two million people. If forecasts are correct, by 2050 we�ll have one million.�

When asked about Krueger, the NPD politician is guarded. �I know him, of course,� he admits. �He is the landlord of my constituency office. He committed a crime and must face the consequences.�

Asked about Jamel, Koester described it as �quite a normal little village�. He added: �Many of the occupants have their own views, and don�t want to pretend about what views they have.�

In Jamel, near where the signpost pointing to Hitler�s birthplace used to be, is a painting of a signpost which is equally designed to provoke: it points the way to Breslau, once in Germany but ceded to Poland, and Koenigsberg, now part of Russia.

�These places belonged to the German Reich,� said Uwe Wandel, mayor of the Gaegelow district which includes Jamel, standing by the painting.

In a democratic society, there is little than can be done to stop members of the far Right buying private houses, the mayor says, even if it leads to the creation of a neo-Nazi enclave. He is opposed to banning far-Right parties.

�We have to engage with people. And if they commit crimes, they should be prosecuted,� Wandel said.

The mayor says that he �wishes dearly� that the neo-Nazi problem would go away.

�But it won�t. There will always be people who think this way. There will always be National Socialists.�

Germany is in no way immune from what's happening in the rest of Europe.

Edit: and Angela Merkel and the ruling party are in no way friends to LGBT people.

http://www.advocate.com/politics/marriage-equality/2012/12/05/german-chancellor-angela-merkel-says-no-equality-gay-couples

Advocate.com posted:

Angela Merkel Says No to Repairing Inequality

n this photo taken by the AFP, German Chancellor Angela Merkel holds up a voting card on Tuesday and sides with those in her party, the Christian Democratic Union, who decided against treating same-sex couples the same as straight couples under tax law.

The Australian reports that Merkel had said she opposed equal treatment because she "sees marriage directly linked to the family and both are under the special protection of the state." Instead, her party considers only marriage between a man and a woman as protected by the country's constitution.

The Irish Times reported that more progressive elements of Merkel's party (which ended up reelecting her during the conference as its leader) proposed this evolution on the issue and argued it would be key to regaining waning support in urban areas. But Merkel opted to avoid angering more conservative supporters. With the nomination secured, Merkel now faces a general election in nine months and is seeking a third term as chancellor.

The country's top court is expected to weigh in on the constitutionality of tax inequality before the end of 2013.

Pesmerga fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Aug 10, 2013

# ¿ Aug 10, 2013 14:40

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

MeLKoR posted:

Right. Maybe it's a bit premature to start back-patting the German yet, though? Wait until Germany is experiencing over 25% unemployment in general and over 50% youth unemployment in particular and then we can tell if their memory remains as fresh.

Why would the german people be sliding into fascism? Things are still working out comparatively well for them as it is. When there is no more to squeeze from the periphery and their masters turn on them, then we shall see if that vaunted opposition to non-democratic "solutions" remains or is washed away in the torrent of anger and impotent liberal tears.

Actually, there's substantial evidence to suggest that the eastern and more deprived parts of Germany are slipping into fascism. Not at the level of state officials (at least, not yet), but as a growing movement, it's there. And just like with Golden Dawn, the same people who dismissed them as being a bunch of rag-tag morons years ago will be asking how this could have possibly happened. There are numerous stories here: - http://www.spiegel.de/international/topic/right_wing_extremism/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bMw_2nMzqE - this is also worth watching.

# ¿ Aug 10, 2013 14:54

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Civilized Fishbot posted:

No, a group could certainly act against fascist groups in both violent and nonviolent ways. My concern is that acting against them in violent ways could prove to accomplish less than it would empower fascist groups through allowing them to claim oppression/violent repression - which could cause their own followers to become more radicalized and those on the fence to lean toward the supposedly-oppressed fascist group.

If anti-fascist groups could accomplish a string of Battles of Hayes Pond, then that would work well - thanks for linking that article! It's an inspiring story that I didn't know about before today. The issue is that it would be really difficult to outnumber the Golden Dawn by 10:1, which happened in that retaliation. It seems like the Lumbee men were able to basically send away the entire area's Klan presence in a single night, and I'm not sure that could be done with today's European fascist groups.

They're already claiming oppression and repression, it's one of the tenets of fascist discourse. You should watch the YouTube video I posted earlier. Attempting to reason with people swayed by fascist discourse is inherently limited, because the very act of appealing to various senses of liberal reason, non-violence and tolerance are diametrically opposed to what their belief system stands for. Leftists, 'liberals' and other groups are on the hate list as well. How much luck do you think the average Turkish immigrant in east Germany, or Roma in half of Europe has saying 'please, let's just discuss this rationally and reasonably, and you'll find I'm NOT the source of your social and economic problems, now could you please stop kicking me in the face?'

# ¿ Aug 10, 2013 23:35

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Omi-Polari posted:

Why can't you just use the state's law enforcement and intelligence forces to monitor fascist parties? Someone said earlier that Germany is the country that's least likely to see the fascists gain any sort of influence at the political level again, and it's my understanding that the German state has a pretty intense apparatus set up for monitoring and controlling them.

We have all of this surveillance technology and tools for keeping tabs on people. Why not allow fascist parties to advertise and stand for elections, but make it so they're effectively only pretending to be a real party?

If you check the links I posted earlier in this thread on page two or three, the monitoring of fascists by the police in Germany hasn't prevented them from gaining in popular support and committing violent acts against people, in part because there are suspicions that members of the police force sympathise with these groups.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2013 08:59

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Mind Loving Owl posted:

It's true that Greek blood has advantages, the amount of olives in Greek cooking make it unappetizing for vampires. And I think this thread is assuming there are only two extremes in anti fascist measures, hand wringing nothing or instant violence, nothing in between. And that all instances of fascism require the same response.

So what sort of middle-ground are you advocating exactly? How can what is happening in Russia, Hungary, Germany, Romania, the UK in a more insidious form, etc etc be combated?

Oh, and since when do vampires hate olives? :aaa:

# ¿ Aug 11, 2013 12:10

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

No, but guys, guys, if we do nothing, don't worry, the fascists will totally stop!

The Guardian posted:

Cameron rejects Stephen Fry's call for Russian Winter Olympics boycott: PM says campaign against new Russian anti-gay laws best served by participation at Sochi 2014 Games

The prime minister has ruled out a boycott of the Sochi Winter Olympics, claiming that anti-gay prejudice will be better tackled by participation rather than absence.

In response to an intervention from broadcaster Stephen Fry calling for the games to be moved from Russia, David Cameron said he had shared the "deep concern" about the abuse of gay people in Russia.

But writing on Twitter, the prime minister said he believed Britain could more effectively challenge prejudice by attending, rather than boycotting, the event.

Fry urged the prime minister to support protests about Russia hosting the 2014 Winter Olympics over concerns about anti-gay laws passed in the country.

The broadcaster, writing in an open letter on his website, compared the situation to the decision to hold the 1936 games in Nazi Germany and said President Vladimir Putin "is making scapegoats of gay people".

He said: "An absolute ban on the Russian Winter Olympics of 2014 on Sochi is simply essential. Stage them elsewhere in Utah, Lillehammer, anywhere you like. At all costs Putin cannot be seen to have the approval of the civilised world."

Cameron's comments follow similar remarks by President Obama. "I do not think it is appropriate to boycott the Olympics," Obama said on Friday, while adding that "nobody is more offended than me by some of the anti-gay and lesbian legislation".

Cameron wrote to Fry on Twitter: "Thank you for your note stephenfry. I share your deep concern about the abuse of gay people in Russia. However, I believe we can better challenge prejudice as we attend, rather than boycotting the Winter Olympics."

In his open letter, Fry said Cameron was "a man for whom I have the utmost respect".

He added: "As the leader of a party I have for almost all of my life opposed and instinctively disliked, you showed a determined, passionate and clearly honest commitment to LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender) rights and helped pushed gay marriage through both houses of our parliament in the teeth of vehement opposition from so many of your own side. For that I will always admire you, whatever other differences may lie between us. In the end I believe you know when a thing is wrong or right. Please act on that instinct now."

The message comes after politicians in Russia's lower house of parliament, the Duma, passed a law imposing heavy fines for providing information about homosexuality to people under 18.

Last month, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) said it would "work to ensure that the Games can take place without discrimination against athletes, officials, spectators and the media".

It said: "To that end, the IOC has received assurances from the highest level of government in Russia that the legislation will not affect those attending or taking part in the Games."

So, look, you're in good company. David Cameron thinks that if we turn up and pour money into games being held by a fascist regime, we are in fact helping to condemn that regime. No need even for boycotts, the best answer to fascism is silence.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2013 14:46

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Er Pernacchia posted:

Yet another pseudo anti-"fascist" DD circle-jerk full of bash the fash heros (there are literally thousands of fascists gathering in most football grounds in Italy every single Sunday. No bash the fash hero on sight...might that have something to do with bash the fash heros only attending 10:1 marches?)

...and as always no-one ever asks why do people CONTINUE to go that way? How can the left fail SO MISERABLY again and again and again so much as not be seen as the natural harbour for discontent?

How can it be that "Fascists" (you are very unattentive about fascism if you make a thread like this) are now mayors? (Mayor of Rome and other cities and towns scattered around italy).

For every fascist in existence you have the slap in the face reminder of the failure of the left. Every single fascist is a reminder of the bankruptcy of thought of the left.

Don't "bash the fash", bash yourself into oblivion, gently caress off forever and do everybody else a favour.

There are two fascist way of thinkings: the left and the fascists. At least the fascists know they are.

Any other slogans you can think of? If you'd actually read the thread, you would have seen frequent discussions as to why people tend towards fascist ideologies in times of crisis.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2013 15:51

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

SickZip posted:

http://www.france24.com/en/20130625-french-leftist-clement-meric-skinhead-paris

The story is kindof really funny and he was absolutely an idiot.

Yeah, hilarious.

So, to contribute something useful, what is your view on the rise in fascism in Europe, particularly Russian policies towards homosexuals and minorities, and groups like Golden Dawn?

# ¿ Aug 11, 2013 16:57

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

crowfeathers posted:

I suppose if the Russians actually do follow through and arrest a bunch of gay athletes during the Olympics it might make people actually pay attention to the problem, but otherwise not boycotting the Olympics won't accomplish anything apart from proving further that David Cameron is a piece of poo poo.

Speaking of which, Britain is an important lesson about the power that fringe groups can hold on national politics: UKIP and the BNP got remotely popular and so the Tories are able to do things like run vans around the country literally telling foreigners to "go home" while still portraying themselves as reasonable compared to the radical right.

Incidentally, I saw an interview on the subject (can t find it now, I'm on my phone) where the government shill explained the van program wasn't like the BNP because "it targeted illegal immigrants of all races, whatever their skin color." Yep.

Just like the 'completely random, but somehow only stopping black and asian people, but definitely not racist' stops in London.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/03/immigration-spotchecks-racist-home-office

The Guardian posted:

Immigration spot checks not racist, says Home Office

The Home Office has denied that officials broke the law by carrying out "racist" spot checks on suspected illegal immigrants on the basis of their skin colour. The denial by immigration minister Mark Harper came after the Equality and Human Rights Commission launched an investigation into the immigration checks for possible discrimination, and anti-racism campaigner Doreen Lawrence also questioned the apparent focus on non-white people in operations being carried out in and around train stations.

Harper said the choice of London tube stations for spot checks was driven by intelligence, and that individuals were targeted on the basis of their behaviour rather than their physical appearance. The UK Borders Agency's enforcement instructions and guidance reveal that immigration officers have broad discretion to carry out spot checks, with behaviour deemed to be suspicious including: hanging back from a station barrier, avoiding eye contact, a sudden change in walking direction or pace, and seeking to avoid confrontation with someone perceived to be a threat.

The minister revealed that no details of the ethnicity of those questioned were recorded, with officers noting only the nationality, name and date of birth of those they spoke to. Some 17 people were arrested on suspicion of immigration offences at two tube stations where operations were carried out. Data on the numbers stopped for questioning will be released in due course, he added.

"We are not carrying out random checks of people in the street and asking people to show their papers," he told the BBC's Radio 4 Today programme. "That's absolutely not what we are doing. We wouldn't have the lawful authority to do that.

"The operations carried out at two tube stations were based on specific intelligence about concerns that we had about those particular locations and about the times when we conducted the operations. We weren't stopping people based on their race or their ethnicity. We were only stopping people and questioning them where we had a reasonable suspicion that they were an immigration offender."

Harper said the operations were targetting people who "behaved in a very suspicious way". This appears to be a reference to section 31.19.5: basis to stop individuals, which states a person could be justifiably targeted if they seek to avoid immigration officers at a train or tube station as this could be classied as "having an adverse reaction to an immigration presence".

Labour's shadow immigration minister, Chris Bryant, told the Today programme that the recent immigration crackdown had led to a climate of moral panic. He has written to the home secretary, Theresa May, demanding details of the number and ethnic background of people stopped for questioning.

"If it feels as if what is basically happening is that they are going to some parts of the country and stopping every person with a black face, then that is totally unacceptable," he said.

"What we really need from Theresa May � and I think this is a matter of urgency now, because we have had a sort of moral panic that's been created by all of this over the last 10 days and I have a hateful fear that this is what the general election is going to be like � is precise numbers of where these stops and searches were being done, what the percentage was of people who were arrested."

Almost 140 suspected illegal immigrants were arrested on Thursday, in raids that the Home Office controversially publicised on Twitter and condemned by users of the microblooging site as "dystopian" and likened to "UK Hunger Games".

The EHRC, which is responsible for policing the Equalities Act, to which all public bodies are bound, is also investigating the controversial anti-immigration advertising campaign targeting racially mixed areas of London. The government campaign has used mobile billboards warning illegal immigrants to "go home or face arrest".

An EHRC spokesman said on Friday: "The commission is writing to the Home Office about these reported operations, confirming that it will be examining the powers used and the justification for them, in order to assess whether unlawful discrimination took place.

"The letter will also ask questions about the extent to which the Home Office complied with its public sector equality duty when planning the recent advertising campaign targeted at illegal migration."

The UK's gradualist approach to these issues in some respects is more worrying than the outright hatred demonstrated by groups like Golden Dawn.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2013 17:11

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

SickZip posted:

It is. Also a valuable lesson that if your going to take it to the streets and resort to violence, you should probably not be made of fine china.

I thinks it's highly overplayed. Fascism is basically the whipping boy of modern liberal society and a joke. A bunch of negative traits get called fascist to otherize them and pretend they aren't mainstream, innate, and preexisting to fascism. A bunch of rightwing parties, some palatable and some not, get labeled it to discredit them. It's all alot of sound and fury and antifa activists are wasting their time on a bunch of lowlife scum who will get picked up by the police the moment they do something out of line. Meanwhile the people actually harming their country, and the groups the antifa's are ostensibly protecting, are not the one's getting bashed.

So, did you actually read any of the stories posted in this thread? When what is happening in Russia is being openly supported by authorities including the police, how exactly is this 'doing something when they do something out of line'? What about Jobbik, a party that has advertising campaigns like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1TV10CNz90

How the gently caress is the rise of parties that advocate ethnic cleansing to preserve the pure blood of that country not fascism? Or are these just a few negative traits that people have that we're just using to otherize them? Here's a hint: there is otherization going on, without a doubt. Except it's the fascists that are doing it.

Edit: so, if your problem is with 'modern liberal society', would you care to give details on what sort of society you'd prefer?

Pesmerga fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Aug 11, 2013

# ¿ Aug 11, 2013 17:15

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Chamale posted:

Go ahead and try to define fascism in a way that's coherent enough that it can't be used as an excuse to crush legitimate, although unpopular political opinions. I would like to see a useful definition, but it would be too easy to corrupt the political process by condoning violence against any one ideology.

How about advocates for ethnic or racial purity as a governmental policy?

# ¿ Aug 11, 2013 19:54

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Chamale posted:

Have fun barring 14% of Americans from voting.

Who said anything about banning people from voting? I'd ensure that a party that advocated legislation banning inter-racial marriage was banned though.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2013 20:00

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Chamale posted:

Frankly I think a party that advocates banning inter-racial marriage has a right to exist despite its despicable viewpoints, and this comes down to the old problem of granting too much power to bar groups from politics.

Thus perpetuating and legitimizing the views of those who would consider violence against inter-racial couples (or hey, lets look at Russia) actively attacking, torturing and murdering homosexual couples with the complicity of the state.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2013 20:03

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

ThirdPartyView posted:

What would stop an informal coalition/caucus to exist via 'independent' elected representatives/senators/MPs coalescing together on several issues (such as miscegenation, for example) to push through such legislation through the legislature? You can ban parties/official organizations that represent such beliefs, but you're not eliminating the beliefs themselves unless you literally make it a thoughtcrime to even believe in stuff like miscegenation.

You can never eradicate ideas, eugenics among them. But when a political representative, whether part of a coalition or otherwise starts advocating for it as a policy, checks and balances should be in place to immediately remove that person from a political position.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2013 20:11

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Unluckyimmortal posted:

So which are we talking about here, the US or Russia? Because that sort of thing has been going down in the US for quite some time, and no parties were banned to achieve that effect.

As far as Russia goes, are you a Russian oligarch? Is anyone else in this thread? Because it's pretty loving silly to keep talking about what we're "allowing" the fascists in Russia to do, if nobody is. People keep posting about dis-"allowing" the actions of foreign governments but no actual action has been suggested besides boycotting the 2014 Olympics (which I personally think might be a good idea, but realistically isn't going to actually force the Russian government to do anything, just embarrass them a bit).

Name one state that's taken any official action over Russia's recent laws. They give more of a poo poo about Snowden being there than they do about the torture and execution of homosexuals or other 'undesirables'.

Besides, with the voting system currently in place in the US, unless the Republicans decide to go all-in fascist, it's pretty unlikely that a party with that ability will get into power.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2013 20:12

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

NikkolasKing posted:

Well I'm not a racist for one. I'm a total mut of different ethnicities and I lived the first half of my life in Detroit. Apparently people can still be racists even in giant melting pots like that but I don't see how. I know I couldn't manage it.

I'm also not very patriotic. American history and politics bore me. Back when I was on the Left I loved Russian history. Now I'm more interested in Germany and Romania. I always wondered what Amerian fascists in WWII must have thought? Maybe they rationalized it as they were doing their country a service by supporting the Germans.

As for why I'm more sympathetic to Fascism, it's because I have no faith in humans to do the right thing on their own. Petty Self-interest is all most people care about. Fascism's most fundamental premise is doing away with that. You live for the State, you die for the State. You live for the common good, you die for the common good. I was on a board called RevLeft many years ago (before they banned me for admitting my change of heart) and I remember all sorts of arguments about how Communism was just so inevitable. That, whether it was through State Capitalism like Lenin attempted, or the Anarchist route, everything would eventually fall into place. It was at this time, as I grew up, that I realized that human beings are not so inherently noble. THe only way to bring out some great end is for everyone to be directed towards said end by a powerful fore.

If I can speak more personally though, I'm not really part of any political ideology anymore because politics was just one way I wanted to make myself feel....special I guess you could say. It sounds cliche I know but I wanted a higher purpose in my life. I switched from Communism to Fascism because both are regimes in which you are a part. YOu are a part of a great, sweeping change that promises to roll over a nation or the entire globe. You feel = I felt - that it was a calling worth pursuing because it made me grater than I am.

But I realized some time ago that politics are fallible and that's because they are devised by fallible human beings. Politics and faith in politics won't make me feel like I'm doing something worthwhile with my life. As such, I'm looking more towards religion right now. I'm studying a variety of faiths ranging from Taoism to my own Roman Catholic roots, and I hope to find some meaning in my life there. I know it's not exatly hip to be into religion so much when you're a young cynic on the internet but...I might as well give it a shot. At the very least I'll learn something.

It sounds more like you're desperate to feel a sense of belonging to something, and you're reaching around for whatever that may be. It might be an idea to drop the fascism, and consider counselling.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2013 18:33

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

fatherboxx posted:

Some russian news on the topic:

The 8th of September was a "united election day": a number of mayors, regional and municipal councils got elected. As usual, Putin's United Russia won pretty much everywhere, most importantly, at Moscow Mayor Election - to much disappointment of "non-systemic" liberal opposition. The curious exception is Ekatirenburg ("Capital of The Urals"), where the mayoral elections ended with the victory of Evgeni Roisman, a representative of Civil Platform - political party founded by Mikhail Prokhorov (billionaire, owner of Brooklyn Nets among other things).

"Smoking marijuana is the first sign of male homosexuality" - mayor of a 1,3m Russian city

Roisman is the leader of City Without Drugs - a controversial organisation that routinely uses vigilante tactics in its activities. Such activities as:
1) Raids on crackhouses; akin to the fancy neonazi gents in OP, thugs go into CWD to "legally" punch addicts and low-rent pushers, preferably of non-Russian nationality. Of course, Russia had not lived through any kind of state-funded War on Drugs, so people genuinely believe that such actions will clean up the cities.
2) More interesting stuff - forceful rehabilitation. CWD has several centers that completely reject replacement therapy and medical methods in general. Employing same kind of thugs that go into raids, centers round up addicts from crackhouses and those that are dumped by their families (who obviously can't afford actual rehab). Treatment consists of beatings, starvation and handcuffing during withdrawals. In his interviews, Roisman doesn't make a difference between drug traders and drug addicts - they are evil scum that needs to be punished and cleaned away from the society.

Roisman served time in the 80s for robbing women that he seduced; his lieutenants have juicier biographies: rape, murder, hate crimes. The folk hero does not deny that he got help at starting his business from Uralmash - Ekatirenburg crime syndicate that operated in the 90s.

So here you go - in the dire economy and the abscence of competent policework, power fetishism takes place and ultra-right ringleader gets elected against fierceful resistance of the ruling party.

Thanks for this, Guardian reporting on this is loving appalling. They seem to have fallen into the 'Putin bad, opponents of Putin therefore MUST be good' line of reasoning. Here are the two stories mentioning this guy.

"The Guardian posted:

Russia local elections: Putin's opponents gear up for poll challenge

They are not about to take the Kremlin or get a toehold in national government. But Russia's opposition � hounded, scattered, prosecuted and airbrushed out of political life � will this weekend mount its most vigorous electoral challenge since Vladimir Putin took office 13 years ago.

Three vociferously anti-Kremlin candidates, including the scourge of the ruling party, Alexei Navalny, have suddenly found themselves in an unusual position: on the ballot sheet, on the stump and gathering enough support to show that antipathy for Putin and his party of power remains strong, in metropolitan Russia at least.

While Navalny, freed pending an appeal after a farcical trial that culminated in a five-year jail sentence in July, is running for Moscow mayor, ousted opposition MP Gennady Gudkov is standing for governor of the Moscow region. A thousand miles further east, Yevgeny Roizman, an anti-drug activist, former MP, poet and off-road racing champion, is taking on the governor's protege for mayor of Yekaterinburg and perhaps has the best chance of all three to win.

It's not quite a democratic spring. Ruling party candidates, with their access to financial and administrative advantages including state-controlled television, remain in pole position in virtually all the races this weekend.

"These are not fair elections," Navalny, who made his name as a street protest leader and anti-corruption activist, said at a meeting with foreign press last week. "They are competitive, but not fair."

The Navalny campaign plans to mobilise 11,000 observers to try to prevent the ballot-stuffing it expects on Sunday. When asked what he would do if incumbent Sergei Sobyanin wins, Navalny said he and his supporters "won't be silent".

"I'm not planning an Orange Revolution, but I'm also not planning to congratulate Sobyanin," he said.

But if Navalny gets a million votes, or about 20% of the electorate, it will bolster Russia's flagging opposition movement and show that "relatively fair" elections are possible in the capital, according to well-known political analyst Dmitry Oreshkin. An independent poll at the end of August showed that Navalny has the support of 18% of decided voters.

"That will ruin the narrative that the opposition is marginal � That will be a scandal, that means Moscow doesn't like the regime," Oreshkin said.

Gudkov believes that the very fact that candidates from the street opposition movement have been allowed to participate in the elections shows a new trend towards greater competition. "The regime had to compromise like never before. They were forced to not remove us [from the elections] in Moscow and the Moscow region," he told the Guardian.

Meanwhile, if Roizman wins in Yekaterinburg, it will mean that a political "renewal" is possible outside of relatively progressive Moscow, Oreshkin said.

"If he wins at least 30% of the vote, it will be the first regional city of a million people where it's possible to have a heavyweight politician who is not entirely part of the system, not entirely subjugated to the regime," he said.

Putin moved in 2004 to roll back democracy in Russia, scrapping mayoral elections in Moscow and St Petersburg and all elections for governors in Russia's 89 regions. But then-president Dmitry Medvedev restored the regional elections last year in what was seen as a concession to the 2011-12 mass protest movement.

In June, acting mayor Sobyanin called the early vote and helped Navalny register in what was seen as an attempt to gain legitimacy and political status by beating the opposition leader.

But at the same time, other opposition candidates elsewhere have not been allowed to run. The six other gubernatorial races and 16 regional legislative elections scheduled for Sunday include candidates that pose no real rhetorical or electoral threat to Kremlin-backed candidates.

Gudkov, Navalny and Roizman all face significant obstacles to winning or holding office. A recent survey by a state-run pollster predicted Gudkov would garner only 5.5% of the vote in Moscow region, where most agree he doesn't have enough time (the snap election was called only in June) or resources to gain ground against the Kremlin-backed acting governor.

Meanwhile, both Navalny and Roizman have come up against Russia's notoriously politicised legal system.

Navalny was only allowed to run after unexpectedly being freed pending an appeal against his five-year prison sentence for embezzlement, and Roizman has faced criminal investigations related to his controversial techniques for fighting drug addiction and alleged ties to organised crime.

The recent claim by the tax administration of Montenegro that Navalny registered a firm there in 2007 has added fuel to critics' claims that he himself could be guilty of some of the corrupt practices he campaigns against, allegations repeated by Putin in an interview with the Associated Press and state-controlled Channel One this week.

"This is not a case of an opposition leader simply being seized because he criticises the regime, here there is something for a court and law enforcement organs in general to think and talk about," Putin said without referring to Navalny by name, as is his wont.

Navalny has also drawn criticism for his openly nationalist views and his neoliberal economic programme, and some even see him as a Kremlin project to build a new loyal opposition.

Yet, Navalny has already changed Russian politics with his innovative campaign, which has reintroduced many of the features of western elections: a well-organised volunteer campaign, town hall-style meetings with voters and even high-flying fundraising dinners (Navalny recently presented his economic policy ideas to investment bankers during a �150-a-plate dinner at Moscow's Ritz Carlton hotel). His aggressive street campaigning, not seen in a major election here since the mid-1990s, has forced his opponents to hold their own meetings with voters. Most notably, Sobyanin recently met with voters at a metro station on the southern outskirts of Moscow and, in an apparent response to Navalny's frequent accusations, began his remarks with an explanation of what he had been doing to fight corruption.

In addition, almost 200 businessmen, many of them internet entrepreneurs, have openly supported Navalny by signing a "social contract" with him, bucking the tendency for business to shun public politics following the imprisonment of former oligarch Mikhail Khodorkovsky in 2003.

During his punishing schedule of campaign stops, Navalny has eloquently tied residents' everyday problems to widespread corruption. In a recent stump speech to a small crowd of voters on the northern outskirts of Moscow, Navalny went down a laundry list of issues � problems with utility costs, healthcare, education and traffic � rooting each in the kind of shocking corruption statistics that have long been his calling card. (He also didn't hide his "moderate nationalist" platform seeking to drastically reduce immigration.)

"He's a historic person," said local pensioner Boris Morozov after the meeting. "Everything is already decided (in this election), but this meeting will at least open people's eyes a little bit to what is happening."

And then, after the win: -

"The Guardian posted:

Putin's nose bloodied by Russia's rival mayoral candidates

Russia's opposition movement recorded its most telling electoral result in 13 years of Vladimir Putin's rule on Sunday when candidates for mayor in two of the country's largest cities pulled off impressive results against incumbents.

Opposition leader and anti-corruption activist Alexei Navalny won 27.24% of the vote for the Moscow mayoralty, but he immediately disputed the result, saying it was marred by "many serious violations".

He said in a statement: "We consider the official election results to be deliberately falsified."

Official results on Monday morning gave Kremlin ally Sergei Sobyanin, the acting mayor, 51.37%, enough to clear the 50% threshold needed to avoid a second-round runoff.

The Alliance of Observers, however, counted 49.7% for Sobyanin and 28.3% for Navalny.

Navalny's result � achieved with none of the financial, administrative and media advantages that incumbents enjoy � was interpreted as a clear sign of disaffection with the ruling elite.

In Russia's "third capital" of Yekaterinburg, anti-drug activist Yevgeny Roizman appeared to have beaten his opponent from the ruling United Russia party in the mayoral race.

The head of the Yekaterinburg electoral commission said on Monday morning Roizman had won by a margin of more than 3%, but that this result was still being finalised. Several exit polls on Sunday showed Roizman had won by a slim margin. Such a result would also be an embarrassment for the Kremlin.

In the lead-up to the Moscow election, many experts had said 20% would be an impressive result for Navalny, whose rating was in single figures when the early mayoral vote was called in June.

The opposition leader's unexpectedly high result, which he attained after tenacious street campaigning, appeared to mark an important turning point in Russian politics. For the most part, previous elections have been dominated by candidates from parties loyal to the Kremlin.

"The old political system is dead," said liberal political figure Leonid Gozman on the opposition-leaning TV channel Dozhd. "What happened in Moscow and Yekaterinburg � is related to people who are not associated with any party" in the Kremlin-controlled political system.

As the vote counting dragged on, both cities appeared poised for a tense couple of days. One picture circulating on Twitter showed riot police deployed outside the seat of the Yekaterinburg government.

The Moscow Electoral Commission had promised a final result by midnight thanks to newly installed electronic voting machines, but late on Sunday night delayed the announcement of the final result until 10am on Monday.

Speaking to journalists, Navalny said the delays in announcing official results were an indication of the "clear falsification" of votes. He said Sobyanin's results remained above 50% only due to ballot-stuffing outside polling stations, such as when counting votes cast from home. "We demand a second round. We ask Muscovites to come out to the streets if Sobyanin violates their right to vote," he said.

On Sunday afternoon, the Navalny campaign was already planning a protest rally for Monday night.

In July, Navalny was given a five-year prison sentence for extortion in a highly politicised trial. If his appeal against the verdict is unsuccessful, he will be ineligible to hold office in Russia.

Opposition candidate and former MP Gennady Gudkov fared less well in the Moscow region gubernatorial race, where the United Russia candidate Andrei Vorobyov reportedly won with over 70% of the vote.

Election observers in Moscow reported numerous minor violations. In the runup to the election, analysts predicted that falsifying votes cast from home (citizens can request electoral workers to make home visits) would be the most likely method of cheating, but the percentage of such votes was reportedly small.

Yelena Maliyeva, an electoral observer who said she supported Navalny, said she had discovered no irregularities at her polling station in south-central Moscow. However, she said she was prepared to stay all night to prevent violations, as she did during last year's presidential vote.

"In the presidential election, all the dishonest stuff happened after the polling place was closed. Then there were attempts to falsify votes," she said.

Voter turnout was, as expected, low across the country (besides the Moscow mayoral election, seven gubernatorial elections and 16 regional legislative elections were held on Sunday). In Moscow, it was reportedly under 30%.

Many saw the Moscow vote as a referendum on competitive elections. Alexander Lebedev, the Russian banker who owns the Independent and the Evening Standard, tweeted that he would vote for the first time in years: "I'm headed to the polling station. I have to, there's an actual choice."

Even Maria, an election observer and Sobyanin supporter who declined to give her last name, admitted that Navalny had made the election interesting. "That's his one plus," she said.

Sobyanin had ordered ruling party municipal deputies to give Navalny the signatures necessary to enter the race in what many saw as an attempt to lend his victory legitimacy and improve his political status. But the strong result for the opposition candidate calls into question Sobyanin's political rise, which some had speculated could go as far as the prime minister's chair.

Several officials, including Sobyanin's campaign manager, praised the fairness and competitiveness of the elections in an apparent shift in rhetoric. "Do I understand correctly that the official statement about the 'most fair elections' is an admission that the rest were 'not the most fair'?" tweeted socialite and television host Ksenia Sobchak.

Speaking at a United Russia meeting, prime minister Dmitry Medvedev said United Russia's victory in the majority of regional elections showed it "is able to work under in conditions of competitive elections."

So, the one reference is to his beating 'Putin'. Reporting on these people is the worst of cheer-leader politics.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2013 18:16

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Here is the latest from Greece: -

"The Guardian posted:

Greeks protest against Golden Dawn attack on Communists

Thousands of Greeks took to the streets of Athens on Friday to protest against a violent attack on Communist party members by black-shirted supporters of the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party which left nine people in hospital with serious injuries.

In what was described as a murderous attack � and the most serious violence since the extremist group was elected to the country's parliament last year � about 50 men wielding crowbars and bats set upon leftists as they distributed posters in a working-class district of the capital late on Thursday.

In a statement KKE, the Communist party of Greece, said: "The way in which they acted and the weapons employed � are evidence of the murderous nature of the attack. Among the Golden Dawners, some of whom had covered their faces or wore helmets or [party] shirts, were their leaders, well-known fascists and thugs."

With the Communist party preparing to stage a youth festival in the coming days, Thursday's midnight assault comes amid mounting fears that the far right is trying to cultivate an atmosphere of civil war in Greece. Prominent members of the virulently anti-immigrant Golden Dawn have openly predicted that the debt-stricken country is heading towards civil war.

Dimitris Psarras, a writer who has chronicled Golden Dawn's rise over almost four decades since the collapse of military rule, said: "Their agenda, clearly, is to create a climate of civil war, a divide where people have to choose between leftists and rightists."

Psarras argues the attack in the dock-side district of Perama � a Communist stronghold where Golden Dawn has made considerable inroads in recent years on the back of anger over austerity measures � was indicative of that strategy.

"It was very well organised and the most serious incident yet," he told the Guardian. "They are no longer only targeting immigrants in the middle of the night. They are deliberately increasing tensions, expanding their agenda of hate, by going for leftists."

Earlier this year, the Muslim Association of Greece received a letter bearing the insignia of the group and an implicit threat that its members would be "slaughtered like chickens" unless they left the country. Marking the anniversary of the September 11 attacks this week, the party posted a vehemently antisemitic diatribe on its website denouncing "world Zionism [as] the architect of global terrorism".

Greece, whose political faultlines were entrenched by a bloody civil war in the wake of brutal Nazi occupation, is mired in a sixth year of recession that has seen poverty and unemployment soar as it navigates its worst crisis in modern times.

Recent opinion polls have shown that no other party has managed to capitalise on the growing levels of desperation and despair as effectively as Golden Dawn.

Surveys released by the pollsters Public Issue and Pulse in recent days confirmed that the extremists � who recently blasted people attending a "Greeks only" food handout with the official anthem of Nazi Germany � were the nation's fastest growing group and, at 13% and 15% respectively, its third biggest political force.

The main opposition party, the radical left Syriza, topped the ratings with 29% of support, marginally ahead of prime minister Antonis Samaras's centre-right New Democracy party. Many worry that Golden Dawn, which won 18 seats with almost 7% of the vote last June, will further boost its share of votes when local elections are held next year.

According to analysts, Thursday's attack demonstrates Golden Dawn's growing self-confidence and ability to spread its appeal. They point to the inroads the party is making into middle-class neighbourhoods of Athens.

With prominent clerics also voicing support for the group, commentators have begun to ask whether the ruling conservatives should join forces with Golden Dawn, whose views on issues of public order are strikingly similar.

"It is a particularly worrying turn of events that we should now have a debate suggesting that Golden Dawn be brought in from the cold," Psarras said. "Talk that it should end its isolation and link up with New Democracy is dangerous at a time when Greece is going from bad to worse."

Mainstream political parties � like foreign embassies � currently have no official contacts with Golden Dawn.

Leftists rallying near the spot where the attack took place called on authorities on Friday to "finally take action" and "erase" the fascist group.

History is repeating itself. Conservative groupings suggesting alliances with them because they have more similarities than differences (probably mistakenly believing they can control them, as these parties are wont to believe), members of the clergy openly supporting them...this is seriously scary stuff.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2013 10:40

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Incidentally, does anyone know of any academic papers on the link between austerity and the rise of extreme right movements?

# ¿ Sep 14, 2013 15:40

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

I've just found out a friend of a friend has been killed in Greece.

http://roarmag.org/2013/09/pavlos-fyssas-killed-neo-nazis/

Leonidas Oikonomakis, in ROARMAG.org posted:

For Pavlos: the antifa rapper killed by Golden Dawn

Last night, Greek activist and artist Pavlos Fyssas was stabbed to death by a gang of neo-Nazi thugs. Leonidas Oikonomakis pays tribute to his friend.

Eyewitness reports on Pavlos� murder are available here.

For Pavlos,

I still remember the last concert we gave in Athens as Social Waste back in 2005. It took place at the legendary �An Club� in Exarchia and we shared the stage with Rhymeshot, the new band at the time of Killah P.

� �We are not ready Pavlo, we�d better not perform, we haven�t done rehearsals for a long time.�

� �No, no! In our first concert I want you guys there! C�mon!�

At the time Pavlos was 26 years old, and I was 23. We had met at Freestyle Productions, a socio-political hip-hop production team that was formed around Active Member, the country�s biggest hip-hop band. As we shared similar political beliefs and respect for each other we became friends, and we remained so even after we both left Freestyle Productions.

Pavlos was from a working class suburb of Piraeus and, like all the kids born and raised there, he was a fan of Olympiakos (�..and Proodeftiki!� he would add!) � another thing we had in common and that brought us close. I remember we always used to hang out in the demonstrations being organized in Athens and elsewhere at the time, often marching together in the same formation. Pavlos was always present in the social struggles of his time and his generation, and he tried to contribute to them through his music and lyrics as well.

Time passed. I left Greece and now when I return I very rarely spend time in Athens. We lost contact but I was always learning his news from common friends. I heard he had opened up a small taverna in his neighborhood and I kept following his songs and activities from abroad.

And last night, after watching the game of my � and Pavlos� � favorite team over the Internet, I kept browsing the web when the news came up: �Antifascist stabbed by neo-Nazis in Amfiali. It all took place after the game of Olympiakos-PSG�. I kept following the thread as the news slowly kept coming in, and then I read it:

�The antifascist young man is dead. His name was Pavlos Fissas, known in the hip hop circles as Killah P�

I froze.

I don�t even know why I am writing these lines right now� Or maybe I do know. Because a young man died tonight, a young man who happened to be a friend of mine, stabbed to death by a neo-Nazi squad whose members today are inside the Greek Parliament and who seem to be enjoying great popular support. And all this has a reason: the rise of fascism in Greece is a direct result of the austerity policies that have driven the people here into extreme levels of poverty, marginalization and insecurity, providing fertile ground for the neo-Nazis of Golden Dawn who promise them national glory in place for economic security.

The neoliberal austerity policies that have brought Greece to this condition are being imposed by the Troika of foreign lenders: the ECB, the IMF, and the EU, and implemented by the servile government of this country.

Both the Troika and the Greek government have chosen to turn a blind eye to the murderous actions of Golden Dawn. They know about it � it�s not that they don�t. But as long as the austerity measures are voted through Parliament and the debt is repaid, the Troika is happy. At the same time, Antonis Samaras� ruling right-wing party views Golden Dawn supporters as �their own people�, and even the Prime Minister himself regularly adopts Golden Dawn�s hate speech, especially when it comes to matters of immigration.

None of this is new. It has been going on for three years now while the social and economic conditions in the country steadily worsen, sending more and more people into the violent arms of Golden Dawn. Neither is Pavlos the only victim of this murderous squad. Just one year ago, a 27-year-old Pakistani immigrant Shehzad Luqman was also stabbed to death by these neo-Nazis, while numerous others have been seriously injured in the past years. And the police � many of whom are Golden Dawn supporters � are turning a blind eye as well. Now, after the immigrants�, it was Pavlos� turn. And tomorrow? Whose will it be?

And how much longer will you be turning a blind eye?

Goodbye Pavlo.

And be sure� No Pasaran!

Leonidas from Social Waste

And here are the eyewitness accounts mentioned in the above link: -

ROARMAG.org posted:

A report by Pavlos� father (via Occupied London):

Pavlos� friends made a remark against Golden Dawn inside a caf� where they were watching a football match. Somebody from a nearby table overheard them and made a phone call to Golden Dawn members. Golden Dawn squads arrived almost simultaneously with DIAS motorbike police. Pavlos tried to help his friends evade the scene, but he was ambushed by another Golden Dawn squad and surrounded. Then another Golden Dawn associate drove with his car opposite in an one-way street, stopped and stabbed him to death, while the DIAS policemen did not intervene. One girl asked them to help but they didn�t. They only approached afterwards to arrest the man with the main suspect.

From eye-witness report (via Indymedia Athens):

Around 24:00 a group of 15-20 fascists, wearing black T-shirts and military pants and boots, was deployed on P. Tsaldari street. During that time, Pavlos (a.k.a. Killah P) was walking with his girlfriend and another couple when he was spotted by the fascists shouting �what are you looking for here, you know there is no place for you in this hood�. The fascists hunted the two couples down P. Tsaldari street towards Gr. Lampraki avenue, where from another street, a new group of around 10 fascists came out and surrounded the guys. At that time, a car drove opposite in an one-way street, stopped, the driver came out and stabbed Killah P once in the heart and once in the abdomen (the stabbing on his abdomen had an upside-down �L� shape).

The whole scene took place in the presence of DIAS motorbike police, who only afterwards and only as soon as most of the fascists had already dispersed, arrested the murderer (according to some witnesses Killah P, while still in shock, kept pointing at the murderer and this is how the cops arrested him � a 55-year-old holding a knife, described by other eye-witnesses as a known Golden Down associate). The ambulance took 35 minutes to arrive and Pavlos was pronounced dead at Nikaia general hospital.�

A call for a gathering on the spot of his assassination was made for today, Wednesday 18:00, on 60, P. Tsaldari street (from Athens, via public bus B18 from Ralli-Salaminas, or Γ18 from Gr. Lampraki, from Piraeus via public bus 824 or 826). There are also calls for demonstrations in Thessaloniki: 10:00 in the teachers demo, 16:00 in Physics dept. in AUTH university campus, 18:00 demonstration from �Kamara� on Egnatia street. In Mytilene, Lesbos island, 18:00 on Sappho square, in Patras, 10:00 on Olga square, in Larissa 10:00 in the 1rst Lyceum and 10:30 in the teachers� demo, in Komotini and many other towns there also demos on 18:00.

It is hardly surprising that the Greek police once again did nothing to prevent Golden Dawn�s fascist violence (Golden Dawn is largely supported by the Greek capitalists, the government and the church, as a willful thug against militants, workers and the poor, and more than half of the police vote for this openly neo-Nazi party) if not actively participating in or covering the organisation of what looks as a death trap for a well-known radical, member of the metalworkers union and antifa hip-hop artist in a working class district, near the spot where a few days ago eight members of the communist party (KKE) were also brutally assaulted by Golden Dawn neo-Nazis.

The silence of the mass media, which are kept alive with the government�s vast loans and benefits, is hardly surprising. They either decided to describe the assassination as a �fight after an argument about football� or not to mention it at all. They are the same mass media that promote every misanthropic Golden Dawn activity as an �opposition to the system�s flaws�, and lately as a realistic government partner for the future. They are of course the voice of their owners, the same few families of capitalists, owners of a shitload of tanker ships, banks and hotels that support the right-wing government and its thuggish little counterpart on the streets, the Golden Dawn, in what they see as a Golden opportunity to get rid of workers� rights and turn Greece into a proper labor camp under the nationalist and religious kitsch.

It is worth noticing that this is a hard time for the government and their nazi counterparts, as even after their full scale assault on anarchists, squatters, and workers� struggles, the movements seems to find again its momentum, with the current struggles of the teachers, the hospital workers, and so on.

Pesmerga fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Sep 18, 2013

# ¿ Sep 18, 2013 16:38

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Just got off the phone with a friend. Situation there is crazy, and it seems the alleged killer's wife has just been arrested for destroying evidence. Golden Dawn have been trying to disassociate themselves from the man in custody, and apparently the wife was tasked with destroying anything linking him to the party.

Amnesty International are now commenting on the situation in Greece: -

Amnesty International posted:

The Greek authorities must do everything in their power to prevent further politically motivated violence after a far-right supporter killed a musician and anti-fascist activist in the capital Athens this morning, Amnesty International said.

Pavlos Fyssas � 34 and well-known for his anti-fascist views � was stabbed to death early on Wednesday. Police said that eyewitnesses identified his attacker, who was arrested at the scene � the 45-year-old man, who said he is a member of the far-right political party Golden Dawn, has reportedly confessed to the crime.

Golden Dawn has denied any involvement in the attack but the police moved to search some of the party�s offices. Several demonstrations are due to take place this evening to protest against the murder of Pavlos Fyssas.

�Politically motivated violence of this kind is unacceptable anywhere, and history has shown the grim consequences if it goes unchecked. The Greek authorities must send a clear message that attacks like this will not be tolerated, and the individual or individuals responsible must be brought to justice,� said Jezerca Tigani, Deputy Europe and Central Asia Programme Director at Amnesty International.

�Amnesty International has repeatedly expressed concerns over how intolerance and violence have been on the rise in recent years � manifesting themselves in public acts of xenophobia and racism, which have been met with a weak response by the authorities.

�The Greek authorities must stem this dangerous tide before it leads to further human rights abuses, which pose a serious threat to individuals� safety and ability to exercise their right to freedom of expression. People must be able to express their political beliefs without fear of physical violence.�

Just before his death, Pavlos Fyssas had reportedly had a verbal dispute in an Athens bar on Tuesday evening. Upon leaving the bar, he and his friends were ambushed, reportedly by a group of far-right extremists.

According to eyewitnesses, between 15 and 20 people were involved in the ambush, many of them wearing black t-shirts and military-style trousers � similar to the clothing worn by Golden Dawn supporters. The police said the 45-year-old perpetrator arrived at the scene a few moments later brandishing a knife, which he used to kill Fyssas.

The killing occurred after several years of austerity measures in Greece amid a serious economic crisis. Far-right views like those espoused by Golden Dawn have also gained support during this time � the party currently has 18 seats in the Greek Parliament.

Last week, Golden Dawn supporters reportedly attacked a group of Greek Communist Party members, leaving eight people injured and in need of medical treatment. Attacks against migrants and refugees in the country have also been on the rise in the past two years, with some resulting in fatalities.

�This surge in xenophobia, intolerance and politically motivated attacks in Greece is truly chilling � the authorities must act now to prevent such violence from spreading before it gets out of hand,� said Jezerca Tigani.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/greece-prevent-further-extremist-violence-after-activist-stabbed-death-2013-09-18

There are also some reports circulating that someone in Golden Dawn ordered this due to Pavlos being one of the most high-profile anti-fascist activists in Greece, but so far it just seems to be an unsubstantiated rumour.

Edit: - a friend's just told me that a Greek newspaper has claimed that the guy arrested is specifically on Golden Dawn's payroll as an enforcer specifically employed to intimidate and assault immigrants.

Pesmerga fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Sep 18, 2013

# ¿ Sep 18, 2013 18:56

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Peel posted:

Historically conservative elites don't like fascists, they just use them if they feel they have to. And since the EU has the Greek government's back, and has no desire to be seen getting into bed with fascists, they both need them less and have more reason to avoid them than their counterparts in 1920s Italy and 1930s Germany.

They'll probably tolerate (and have been tolerating) a background level of political violence against potential 'troublemakers' though, depressingly.

This doesn't quite gel with the very public musings of senior New Democracy members, journalists and even the clergy of bringing Golden Dawn 'into the fold', considering them a legitimate coalition partner. Remember, someone from New Democracy publicly stated that their views and Golden Dawn's views 'weren't so different'. If the ruling coalition is deeply unpopular, they may well seek to derive their legitimacy from the support of Golden Dawn. Whether recent events change this, or whether they're hoping that the initial outrage will quickly fade away, is difficult to ascertain at the moment.

# ¿ Sep 19, 2013 12:00

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

YF-23 posted:

Greek leftie that doesn't think violence is the answer here. Saying that non-violence just gets you killed doesn't really build up an argument in support of violence.

Anti-fascist violence is understandable, and as an act in itself is not necessarily a bad thing (as long as it doesn't lead to murder anyway). But you have to consider the bigger picture, you have to consider antifascist violence as a strategy, and its merits in that regard. What a lot of people here are doing is a knee-jerk "bash the fash" reaction fuelled by little more than anger. It's good for venting out, but it doesn't really provide a clear vision as to how to get rid of the fascist elements other than a vague promise of disintegration by virtue of the violence's (presumably successful) application.

And it's true that there's other examples of that happening before such as Cable Street. But the times since have changed. Yes the political situation has regressed and in many ways resembles the '30s, but there are points where the resemblance stops: Greece in 2013 is not Britain in 1936. You have a political system that feels threatened by the left and is eager to attribute to it any misbehaviour by non-conforming elements. You have a police that isn't merely lukewarm towards the fascists, you have a police that in large part overlaps with them. These are fascists with organisational experience, with means, with the backing of the establishment as a potential buffer against the left. "Unprovoked" violence against them thus would not serve to harm them, but to strengthen them (please note the quotation marks around unprovoked, I do find everything about the GD provocative). It would play right into the government's portrayal of SYRIZA as one of the "two extremes", and the Golden Dawn has grown enough that it can probably recover from a blow such as that.

This is not about maintaining a moral high ground so that one can feel good about one's self. It's about maintaining a moral high ground so that you cannot be vilified.

You do make some good points, and ones I've heard made by a few Greek friends now, some of who are active in the anti-fascist movement. One thing no-one can really figure out though is how Golden Dawn can be managed. People keep bleakly referring to the coming civil war.

# ¿ Sep 20, 2013 14:34

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

SedanChair posted:

That's cute, it sounds like one of the reasons that GD informer became disgruntled and quit is that the higher ups were more interested in collecting protection money from Pakistani business owners than driving them out. It's like he's his own little Tea Party!

But also interesting in that for him, the idea was to drive them out, not kill them. I would suspect a significant part of the Golden Dawn membership holds this position, with the central 'nucleus' having the pure fascists and organised criminals, and a larger body of desperate individuals searching out someone to blame for their troubles. It's the subversiveness of the movement that makes it dangerous, and the more people who have familiarity with the closed nucleus that can then spread this message to the Greek citizen who may sympathise with Golden Dawn, the more likely it can be delegitimised as a political movement.

# ¿ Sep 26, 2013 16:11

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Video interview in the Guardian about a woman attacked by Golden Dawn members with wounds that look like they were caused by a pen-knife.

"The Guardian posted:

How I was knifed by Golden Dawn supporters - video interview
A young Greek woman describes how she was set upon by two supporters of Greece's far-right movement Golden Dawn. The woman suffered cuts to her face and arms in the attack, which happened the day after the anti-fascist rapper Pavlos Fyssas was stabbed to death. She says she has not reported the attack to the police, because she does not have confidence that they will take action. The interviewee's voice has been disguised

# ¿ Sep 27, 2013 18:25

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

The way I see it, this can go a few different ways: -

1. The governing coalition and police are using this as a way of making it look like they're doing something, and quietly inform Golden Dawn leaders of this. They wait a suitable amount of time, hope that attention has passed onto other issues, and then quietly announce that there was insufficient evidence to convict anyone except the killer himself, Mihaloliakos plays up the martyr of the people angle, Golden Dawn support is maintained. Bear in mind that Golden Dawn MPs can continue to sit while waiting for their cases to be heard.

2. Golden Dawn is labelled as a criminal organisation and its leaders convicted. Golden Dawn spokespeople claim that the last time we saw arrests like this was at the end of the Junta in 1974. Claim of the attempts to silence the will of people (reflected in Golden Dawn support). Calls for uprising and overthrowing the coalition. Could either be successful if there's enough in the way of police and/or military support, or alternatively could be put down if the enforcement arm decides to stay with the status quo. Alternatively, demands (with veiled threats of violence) for new elections, potentially seeing upsurge in Golden Dawn support.

3. Golden Dawn is made illegal, but its leaders are not convicted, allowing them to create a new political party, say NotGolden Dawn.

Can anyone think of other possible reactions?

# ¿ Sep 28, 2013 10:56

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Temaukel posted:

Wait what? You are grateful that the GD will now probably get stronger?

Emden's a good example of an incredibly accurate red title. I'm worried that he may be right and this will galvanise support for Golden Dawn. Emden, in comparison, hopes for such a reaction.

# ¿ Sep 28, 2013 23:00

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Jedit posted:

Give Europe a thousand Breiviks in every country and more than two million innocent people will die. The idea is to prevent the next Holocaust, not to loving enact it.

Fascism can be defeated without pre-emptive violence. Woody Guthrie's guitar had "This Machine Kills Fascists" written on it, and it wasn't because he beaned them over the head with it.

This video by Zizek seems relevant here: http://youtu.be/XM9erS90gTE

# ¿ Nov 3, 2013 11:59

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 20:56

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Captain_Maclaine posted:

NPR had a bit about the European Parliament elections this morning, in which UKIP expects to do decently as it's obscure-enough of an election that only the motivated and/or nuts (ie: UKIP voters) bother to vote in it (plus there may be heavy rains, depressing turnout even further).

There are also local council elections in England which have so far seen UKIP gain 80 seats, bringing their total to 102, with many councils left to declare.

# ¿ May 23, 2014 08:12

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > A return of Fascism in Europe?