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Rising Sun: ASL Module 13 came in the mail Monday, so it (and Tekopo's prodding) have gotten me thinking about discussing Advanced Squad Leader: Advanced Squad Leader is a heavyweight. It's kind of absurd, really. The full rulebook is hundreds of pages and filled to the brim with legalese, exception cases, and military jargon. Really though? If that was it, that this was a game with a big rulebook, that wouldn't be the strange part about ASL. The strange part about Advanced Squad Leader is how good it is. Even for me, who is more likely to enjoy euros than war games; I think this game is fantastic. There are other weird things about Advanced Squad Leader. That huge rulebook and giant core module are preceded by a tiny starter kit that shows you about 75% (maybe more) of what ASL is all about. The loving starter kit rulebook condenses ASL into eleven pages. The point here is that Advanced Squad Leader, at its core, is not as complicated as its sprawling text makes it out to be. Hell, I'll even explain the system in brief in the next paragraph: The game is played in turns, each turn divided into one turn for both players (game and player turns respectively). The player turns are divided into eight phases (heal troops, attacker's first fire, movement, defender's fire, attacker's second fire, retreat, slow move, close combat). The most important phases involve moving and defensive firing, for ASL is about positioning. The game works in such a way that the active player will have weaker firing opportunities than the non-active player, so the game can boil down to advancing troops to the objectives you need to get to in such a way that you always have a strong shooting opportunity outside your turn. The system works, and works well. It doesn't have the flash of card-play like Combat Commander, but playing ASL has made me realize how enjoyable it is to have very basic components turn into a sprawl of mechanics. You don't enclose your chance to fire at a moving target in the luck of a card draw, you don't count cubes on an initiative track; it's just two dice, some boards, and a small selection of counters from an obscene pool of chits. I don't think I'm alone in this sentiment. Advanced Squad Leader is older than I am yet still has products being released for it to this day. The only major rules-overhaul came from the move from Squad Leader to Advanced; that the system has yet to be restructured is somewhat telling of how solid the play is. Yes, the rulebook is daunting, perhaps even unreadable as anything but a reference. If you're interested in ASL, the starter kit is much better at explaining the game than the full rules, and there are tons of videos online with people ready to teach the game. I'm buttering up my 2-player wargame friend to this system, while learning from a more experienced ASL gamer in the area. Hopefully I can report to you my thoughts on the games as I play them more.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:18
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I get the impression that ASL's girth is from optional chrome modelling of every tiny nuance of period weapons, but I'm not sure if that's true. What kind of play times are you clocking?
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Sep 26, 2013 02:14
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A bit late, but I played some Cuba Libre with some people on #boardgoons, and it was very very good. I'm still new at card-driven games, and they are certainly on the heavier end of the spectrum for games I've played in general (having just gotten my feet wet with Twilight Struggle). All in all, good fun. Played the 26th faction, kidnapping people and raising terror. Had no idea what I was doing, but still a very enjoyable experience with a very compelling amount of depth. If it were only 2 player (not the modified 2 player in the book) with just 2 of the factions, I could see it being a little lighter than Twilight Struggle; with 4 people you have to pay attention to so much (not a bad thing).
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Sep 26, 2013 05:12
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Yeah, that was my second game of CL and it was WAY more fun as the first. As the Syndicate, I was wheel and dealing, asking for bribes and blackmailing. Relations with Tekopo's Cuban Government were at all time high... before they reached an all time low 
Dre2Dee2 fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Sep 26, 2013 |
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Sep 26, 2013 14:25
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Playing as the Government/Syndicate is a real mexican standoff in that game. The best part was when you played an event that screwed me out of a province, only for like three of your casinos to get shut down, eventually ending on a 'well let's forget that every happened' because fighting would screw us both over. I really enjoy the interactions within Cuba Libre a lot more, although it has slightly more defined sides there's still a lot of scope to break out of the traditional alliances. I'm gonna do a massive effortpost in my blog sometimes this week about CL/AA and their differences.
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Sep 26, 2013 14:33
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Paper Mac posted:I get the impression that ASL's girth is from optional chrome modelling of every tiny nuance of period weapons, but I'm not sure if that's true. What kind of play times are you clocking? Yes and no? ASL doesn't go into super-nuance of each weapon (necessarily), but what it will do is try to cover pretty much everything that could happen in a WWII skirmish. Wind spreading fires? Got rules for that. Buildings collapsing from said fire? Got rules for that. Oh wait, were there men in the sewers under the collapsing building? Welp, we've got a rule for that (they die). It's still mostly chrome, but it's chrome in a way that's not trying to go super deep as much as super wide. And reading the rulebook you get a sense that every interaction with another rule in the game has been cross-referenced and clarified (thus making all the edge cases). As far as playtimes, it depends on what scenario is being played and who you're playing with. Playing with the guy who is experienced with the game, a medium-length ASL map takes three hours or less. Playing a starter kit intro scenario with someone completely new to the game? Six hours or more. Then there are monster scenarios that are weekend killers (the historical modules especially have maps like this).
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Sep 26, 2013 18:52
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I'm rather new to the whole wargaming scene, and have a question about Advanced Squad Leader that's been bugging me for awhile: How does one even get a copy of it? Most retailers I've found (including the MMP website itself) are telling me that various printings of the rulebook, the first starter kits, etc. are out of print, and this has been the case for months. Do most people play ASL via Vassal or is there actually some way to get a physical copy of it without greatly inflated prices?
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Sep 27, 2013 05:16
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Wargaming companies usually print in runs: even 'big' companies like GMT can't afford to be continually printing like mainstream other boardgaming publishers. I've got two local shops that stock wargames: one of them has a decent selection of GMT/Colombia/MMP (including some ASL) and the other one is probably the best shop I've ever seen and even stocks the VPG 'plastical wallet' games. I guess it's a case of being lucky and finding a local shop that stocks the stuff: even if it's 'out of print' the market is small enough that specialised retailers should have copies in hand from the last run. I haven't tried the secondary market for wargames so I can't really comment on that.
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Sep 27, 2013 10:16
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RationalTangle posted:I'm rather new to the whole wargaming scene, and have a question about Advanced Squad Leader that's been bugging me for awhile: How does one even get a copy of it? NWS has 2nd Ed for $50.. sounds pretty normal to me? http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/adsqleru2nde.html Starter kits are supposed to be back in this year but who knows.
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Sep 27, 2013 10:38
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If you are interested in playing ADP right NOW, hop on #boardgoons on synirc.
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Sep 28, 2013 22:37
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drat, missed it! Did you guys play it?  Also if any of you wanna try that or finish any of our ongoing COIN games, I'd be free tomorrow
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Sep 29, 2013 04:53
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Hope I'm not annoying you guys too much with stupid newbie questions: Are there any well-loved online retailers for these sorts of games, as well as any good brick-and-mortar stores in the western Wisconsin/Eastern Minnesota area?
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Sep 29, 2013 23:36
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RationalTangle posted:Hope I'm not annoying you guys too much with stupid newbie questions: Are there any well-loved online retailers for these sorts of games, as well as any good brick-and-mortar stores in the western Wisconsin/Eastern Minnesota area? For online, CoolStuffInc sells a decent amount of war games. Aside from that, publisher's websites are your best bet (GMT has a great pre-order system). Other than that, there's not one singular "WAR GAME STORE" to my knowledge (although you could probably find a lot of trades for obscure stuff at ConsimWorld
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Sep 29, 2013 23:45
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RationalTangle posted:Hope I'm not annoying you guys too much with stupid newbie questions: Are there any well-loved online retailers for these sorts of games, as well as any good brick-and-mortar stores in the western Wisconsin/Eastern Minnesota area? Google searching the game can often find it on some of the more obscure online stores. I can give you the run-down on Twin Cities stores if you want, it could be helpful depending on where exactly in WI/MN you are
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Sep 30, 2013 00:35
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RationalTangle posted:Hope I'm not annoying you guys too much with stupid newbie questions: Are there any well-loved online retailers for these sorts of games, as well as any good brick-and-mortar stores in the western Wisconsin/Eastern Minnesota area? If I'm looking for something I can't find locally, I usually check NWS, Coolstuffinc (mentioned above), and World at Play, between the 3 of them one can usually find most in-print things. BGG marketplace is sometimes useful.
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Sep 30, 2013 01:31
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Crossposting from the general boardgames thread, didn't realise this one existed: I've managed to get a reasonably complete copy of Fields of Fire on a garage sale, wich in Spain is nothing short of a miracle. It's missing the rules (available online, so no problems there) and the player aids, but has the mission booklet. I assume some counters are gone too, but who cares when there are 800+ more in the box? As far as I can tell from a couple of games, the only thing really missing that I can't find online is the table with the probability of finding different types of cover in an urban environment (strong/weak buildings), which for some reason isn't in the manual. Is there anything else in the player aids that's missing from the rules and will be indispensable as I go through the campaigns? By the way, this playlist is a great way to learn the game. It's a 4-hour walkthrough of the first mission of the Normandy campaign.
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Sep 30, 2013 10:28
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It's one of those things that are present only in player aids. Buuuut, you can download the official Vassal module and write the player aids down. Note that you probably want to watch these videos from BGG, since in a true :fieldsoffire: fashion half of comments there is rulestalk, complete with OP doing a few mistakes in his playthrough. Lichtenstein fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Sep 30, 2013 |
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Sep 30, 2013 13:06
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Lichtenstein posted:It's one of those things that are present only in player aids. Buuuut, you can download the official Vassal module and write the player aids down. My though process: 1) Silly Lichtenstein, I already tried that! That table isn't in the module! 2) Let's give it another shot anyway, Lichtenstein is the one 3) Wait, was there a drop down menu here last time I checked the module? As in, yesterday? 4)  Lichtenstein posted:Note that you probably want to watch these videos from BGG, since in a true :fieldsoffire: fashion half of comments there is rulestalk, complete with OP doing a few mistakes in his playthrough.
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Sep 30, 2013 13:33
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I too blame Lichtenstein for making me want to buy FoF. And Red Winter. And probably whatever you showcase next (finish showcasing Red Winter btw  ).So, ADP: we gave it a trial go and got about half-way through. It was better than I thought it would be but it feels very different from other games and slightly more complex than AA/CL. The latter two tend to be very direct, since working out how to hurt someone is easy, but ADP does make it harder, especially if you are the coalition. It's actually pretty hard to balance helping the government without just giving the game away to the Govt. Govt, on the other hand, has a easier time to outright decrease support (and thus hurt the coalition), which helps feeds it patronage anyway. So far the dynamic (at least to me) works thus: coalition and taliban are in outright conflict, the warlords are the usual green-faction mercenary side (it doesn't align itself to anyone as closely as the syndicate aligns itself with govt in CL), but the govt has really the choice of working with either warlords or coalition: there are two main ways to gain patronage. One pisses off the coalition, the other warlords. I think there's actually quite a strong alliance available between the coalition and warlords as well. Overall, pretty weird. Really need to complete a game to know what I really think of it.
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Sep 30, 2013 19:34
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Me and Tek are streaming boardgaming. https://www.twitch.tv/panzehTV
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Sep 30, 2013 19:50
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Tekopo posted:finish showcasing Red Winter btw I actually will! It just turned out I needed Uni to begin anew to have time for anything.
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Sep 30, 2013 21:20
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Blackmongoose and I are playing Dai Senso! On stream. http://www.twitch.tv/panzehtv
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Oct 2, 2013 00:14
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I gave CC:E a try and I'm not quite sure which of CC:P or CC:E I like more (although I think they are both pretty good games). I found it frustrating that in CC:E you could get routed so easily (most of my losses were due to getting routed rather than getting shot at) and that recovering was equally random. On the other hand, breaking within CC:P doesn't seem as much of a problem because the revive cards give guaranteed rallies. I'm not sure which I prefer, to be honest.
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Oct 4, 2013 11:57
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You were applying terrain bonuses to your morale rolls, right?
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Oct 4, 2013 16:33
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Whoops, we did not. That would certainly have made the units less fragile. I enjoyed the more random recovery in Europe, it evened out in the end and made breaking more dangerous. I might have to get this game but I know I'll hardly ever get to play it 
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Oct 4, 2013 18:08
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So cover saves add to your morale for the purposes of routing/rallying? Wow, well, that changes a lot. I do like the game a lot in that it encourages you to hug the terrain since going out in the open is veeery dangerous. I really can't wait to give it another try!
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Oct 4, 2013 19:10
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It makes attempting to rout your opponent a rather unattractive proposition for elimination or retreat unless they're in the open or on a road. Routing can be good to burn an otherwise useless card from your hand without discarding or to run the clock faster.
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Oct 4, 2013 19:36
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Yeah, I can see that, especially since it turns an almost certain rout (with 6 morale for most Russian troops) into an 8, which you aren't as likely to make. The game seems more deadly that CC:P in a way: the game between me and Morholt started with him running a squad just a single hex into the LOS of a HMG, which promptly cut down both a squad and a leader. It really made it a difficult proposition to run out in the open.
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Oct 4, 2013 20:30
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Moving house and no internet means that I've decided to buy a solitaire wargame which in this case turned out to be Thunderbolt and Apache leader! I've had a brief look over the rules and it looks to me to be a much more interesting take on '* Leader' games than, for example, Phantom Leader, which didn't seem to give much of an option in terms of how you attacked the target (there always seemed to be at least one approach that you pretty much had to choose). Has anyone tried it? There's a lot of choice in how to setup a squadron, do 'gimmicky' squadrons work (fex an all A-10 squadron)?
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Oct 21, 2013 09:25
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I'd recently become interested in solo wargames as well when I read about Carrier. I watched the negative calandale review of it and ended up thinking it sounded pretty decent, actually. I looked at the rulebook and it doesn't look crazy but it's pretty procedural, it's hard for me to tell how "dry" I'll find it ahead of time, without some play experience. There seem to be a fair number of interesting decisions to make throughout the turn resolution procedure, and combat looks like it's appropriately sudden and bloody, and it's possible to be surprised by "AI" task forces. I'm actually as much or more interested in submarine warfare during that same period, but something like Silent War seems like an unimaginably tedious chore (playing against a statistical model of patrol outcomes for hours a day days-weeks-months on end to play the campaign).
Paper Mac fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Oct 21, 2013 |
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Oct 21, 2013 14:22
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Yeah I got Steel Wolves but the game itself is a tedious, boring chore that has very little in the way of meaningful choices. I should probably sell the game. I have Phantom Leader on my iPad so I sort of knew what I was getting myself into but there's so much more to Thunderbolt + Apache Leader, it seems like a much more refined game. I'm really interested on how The Hunters from GMT pans out, since managing just single U-Boat seems much more fun. Has anyone played U-Boat Leader from DVG? I wonder what that one is like as well. I might get my copy of Cuba Libre in the next couple of days: I'm really excited since I want to have a look at the Playbook/Design Notes/Strategy sections. Anyone had a chance to read them yet?
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Oct 21, 2013 14:27
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Been going through old classics and just bought Arab Israeli War and Blitzkrieg. Blitzkrieg is like the first "monster" game made and it's a loving great time. Fictional countries fighting each other with infantry, armor, and air support (depending on the complexity of the rules you choose). Each city you capture adds to your supply of unit factors that you can support, and invading minor countries gives you fun things like attrition and city capture tables. So you're fighting the game trying to grab these minor countries while trying to set up a good offensive or defensive front, perhaps invading beaches somewhere else, while also trying to keep your air units within good operational range. It's from 1965 and we use the original "Tournament" rules. Arab-Israeli Wars is just different and awesome. An evolution of the Panzerblits/Panzer Leader system, it depicts the wars from The 50's, 60's and 70's with the option to make your own scenarios. The game comes with a huge amount of scenarios and there's an article of The General with a programmed instruction to get you into the rules one scenario at a time. It's a different kind of hex and counter game, in that you have ranges and can actually attack across the board. You've got a weapons effect table for type of weapon vs type of target at certain ranges, you've got your classic avalon hill stuff, and you've even got a Suez Canal table. Also a modular system with four board segments that you combine to make different maps.
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Oct 22, 2013 02:22
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Blitzkrieg does sound pretty interesting but I've always been afraid to revisit some of the older Avalon Hill classics since when compared to modern wargames some of the mechanisms for them seem so (endearingly or otherwise) clunky. For example, I got the game called Luftwaffe for my dad since he remembers playing it when he was young and we played it once and the game felt pretty badly designed. The entire thing was a mess of record keeping: I had to, as the american, show where every single bomber formation attacked which particular cities, which meant writing on a pad criss-crossed with lines. We also played Rommel in the Desert and even though it has a similar level of book-keeping, the game felt much smoother. Trip report for Thunderbolt Apache Leader: I like it quite a lot, even though the first campaign I did was a loss after the very first day. As suggested by the game, I tried the Iraq 1991 scenario using Surge, which meant I had to destroy two battalions in the first day or lose the scenario. My line-up was a Thunderbolt, 3 Apaches and 2 Cobras. I decided to attack an artillery battalion (it makes you lose Special Operations so I wanted to get rid of it quickly) and a Tank Leader (they setup in the friendly transit area so I wanted to get rid of them quickly). The first attack involved an A-10A, an Apache and a Cobra and it went extremely well: I destroyed the SAM sites before they could do anything and only received a single lasting damage on the A-10. I managed to clear the board for extra XP as well. So far, so good. The second mission was a disaster. The on-target event meant I got two less loiter turns and along with a crappy dice-roll for my scout, it meant that I only had 4 turns over the target before my planes would go bingo on fuel. The enemy setup was pretty bad as well: the two AAA covered each other and would likely rip anything to shreds since the central part of the map had pretty much no ridges. I decided that I would strike the AAA first but as soon as the mission started, one of the AAAs dived for the cover of the ridges, which screwed up my plans since now I couldn't do a stand-off attack. The attack on the other AAA failed which meant that one of my Apaches now faced 6 minor hits, doing a bunch of lasting damage, structure damage and adding some stress as well. The mission went downhill from there and I was pretty much forced to gtfo, losing the campaign. TAL provides a bunch of improvements on the formula that really make the game much more interesting than its predecessors. The map makes all the difference, since you have to make use of the ridges and work out what's the best path to the enemy. I also like how the planes and pilots are now two separate entities, with planes getting various permanent damage that needs to be repaired. Special Operations also work better since in most scenarios you get a certain amount of them per day, which means that you can continue using ordnance to your heart's content. Weapons also use ordnance points now as well, with 10 ordnance points equalling one special operation. The battalions also work well, since the battlefield feels more organic (enemy can advance so there's pressure on you to get rid of them). Overall the game is a blast to play and feels much more fun to play than Phantom Leader. I might look for an iPad app to do the bookeeping since that's the most annoying part of the game but overall I would seriously recommend it if you are interested in a game that simulates CAS operations.
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Oct 22, 2013 16:06
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I think I need to look at that if only for the campaign engine bit. I've been working on a set of 15mm skirmish rules that would track your company over time, generate sensical objectives when you play a game against an opponent, etc, and it's pretty tricky to do halfway decently.
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Oct 22, 2013 23:58
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Tekopo, Blitzkrieg is relatively streamlined especially for advanced rules in an AH game. You track supply and units at sea and that's about it. The combined arms aspect is great and The General offers articles on strategy and variants.
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Oct 23, 2013 03:39
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Is there a Vassal module for it? I wouldn't mind giving it a shot after I've had a chance to read over the rules. Still need to finish my TK and AE games though, they were just about to get interesting. The prices for those games are crazy though, I went to my local (well-stocked) shop and they had a copy of Dai Senso for about £90 pounds. I like the game but not that much, and I can imagine that it's a complete pain to play IRL in comparison to using the relatively good Vassal module. Can't wait to get internet back so I can start playing wargames online again (also considering during an LP of TAL because it should be pretty easy to run if I use Vassal).
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Oct 23, 2013 11:33
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There is indeed a vassal module. Although I'm kinda more interested in learning one of these new fangled twenty firsty-like century wargames ya'lls playin.
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Oct 24, 2013 01:41
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I suggest you hit up #boardgoons on synirc if you want to get some more modern games going. We usually play most CDGs/No Retreat/TK-DS-AE/Combat Commander and plenty of other stuff. Still wanna be able to finish a game of Andean Abyss/Cuba Libre/A Distant Plain as well.
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Oct 24, 2013 10:05
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Some news from the guys from GMT: No Retreat: North African Front should be coming out in the middle of November, and they just announced both No Retreat: Polish/French Front (I'm guessing that it is based on No Retreat 3) as well as No Retreat: Italian Front (did the VPG version even come out?). I'm really looking forward to these. As well as that, they are finally reprinting Combat Commander. Anyone interested in trying out the new No Retreat: North African Front Vassal module that has just been released?
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Oct 25, 2013 09:33
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Definitely, but it would have to be next week. I'm pretty hyped about a No Retreat Poland game as well, it's likely a "bonus" like the Crete (or was it Malta?) scenario in GMT's NR2.
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Oct 25, 2013 10:55
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