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This game does look beautiful. One of my favorite details so far is that the people actually seem to be the right height for the period, something that is almost never done. Booker is very tall (his Pinkerton card said he's 6'1") and it feels that way. My theory is that there's some sort of time-travel going on, and it's the sort that spawns alternate timelines. Booker is deliberately sent back to this particular day, when Columbia is set to invade America, to prevent that from happening. Or maybe prevent them from winning twenty years later in his timeline. All stories like this tend to get confusing. Wild speculation is that going back in time might end up causing people to inhabit different bodies. Thus the twins could actually be the same person (shades of Heinlein in the bar), and even Booker himself could well be the girl he's trying to rescue. Or perhaps better said, she's this timeline's version of him. What isn't yet clear is how much is understood by the people in Columbia. If there are alternate timelines, are they aware of them? I though there have been references to both favorable and unfavorable outcomes of Wounded Knee, and perhaps those are just differing viewpoints or they actually mean things changed in the past. Is this how they can recognize Booker (by branding him in the future?) I also wonder what Comstock was doing in the first painting with Lincoln. He seemed almost curious, and even when I saw it before the later BoC images I was struck that someone who set up Columbia would want to position himself in there. Unless in this timeline he actually had a cabinet position, but then he'd be extremely long-lived. edit: Forget to mention that with some of the themes and the PI background for Booker, I'm sort of hoping for a Dirk Gently reference at some point. Kangra fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Aug 29, 2013 |
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Aug 29, 2013 18:11
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^^^^ Or there is a 'currently active' dimension that she can open up a portal to. We don't know yet if she can control where exactly it goes. It might be Paris because she wanted to go there, or she paints Paris because that's what she sees on the other side. The idea of alternate dimensions was thought about in fiction as early as the 30s, with Murray Leinster's "Sidewise in Time" (in which battles are fought between peoples from different timelines). Borges's "Garden of Forking Paths", which has the idea of branching timelines and alternate versions of oneself making choices in a different manner, was published in 1941. This was several decades before 'Many-Worlds' became more formalized in QM, but it wouldn't be that out of place if people of this time managed to discover some way to harness the power and control it. Then again if time travel is involved, then it's entirely possible that the apparent anachronisms are simply the future leaking through into the past; all of the required science for this may come from the 1980s or later.
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Sep 7, 2013 00:57
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I don't pretend that this particular line of discussion has gotten a bit out of hand, but really, this is speculation from people who don't know about the game. Shutting it down by saying "this is wrong and the reason will be obvious later" is the worst response to it. It is speculation, based only on what we've been shown so far. Of course much of what is said will be wrong. I don't see how it should be expected to not be. The point is to talk about the questions that are being raised by this particular playthrough; the same questions that we'd have if we were playing it. The fact that we might not have seen something (even if it was theoretically available and 'missed' by Sundowner) reflects on the game, not on our faults as speculators. And we have at least some examples of dissonance: one mother says a girl shouldn't be a scientist despite the fact that the most celebrated scientist in Columbia is a woman. Women are on the police force (including a woman issuing commands on the loudspeaker) without it being much of an issue, and there are the possible examples on the beach or other locations with women being unescorted. Exactly whether this is inconsistent with American society of 1912, or in the game simply to cater to modern sensibilities, or something that will be confirmed/denied by later developments is a valid topic for thought, at least to this point.
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Sep 12, 2013 20:21
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Bruceski posted:That said, I consider my threshold of "books that exist as a mouthpiece for religion/author's philosophy" to be the Narnia series, particularly the later books. That's a pretty high bar to pass, and I think the only other books I've willingly read that passed it are the Golden Compass trilogy, where one character stands up on a soapbox and monologues about everything that's wrong with the Catholic church. I'm sure you know this, but Pullman did this deliberately as a sort of response to the Narnia books (and his criticism could well have been aimed at the Anglicans as well as the Catholics). I think the best (at least most entertaining) Twilight analysis is this series on Livejournal. It was mainly meant as a broad criticism of the books and not on the Mormon connection specifically. But as it is written by an ex-Mormon, she is able to elaborate a bit on the conscious or unconscious elements Meyers included, without trying to argue every point. One of the strongest things I see is the Voltari (or whoever the 'old' vampires are) are located in Italy and stick to old ideas, while the Cullens represent a newer, fresher, maybe even more American style of vampirism, and that aligns pretty well with how the LDS Church views the Roman Catholic Church. As for this game, it doesn't seem to be taking on Mormonism in any way as much as, say, Bioshock tackled Objectivism. It's just a convenient way to work in historical figures with the American Exceptionalist cult that is Columbia.
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Oct 8, 2013 17:01
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Bruceski posted:No, I didn't know that. Did he intend it as a satire or "you think you can write a heavy-handed essay of your dogma disguised as a children's story? Check THIS out!" Because it doesn't really work on the former count. In fairness, maybe I should not have said 'deliberately' because he probably wouldn't claim it himself. On the other hand it's hard to rely on just what he says — he rejects the supernatural and accepts the label of 'atheist' and yet one could find a certain spirituality and supernatural hints in other things he's written. What is clear is that he really hates the Narnia books and to some extent Lewis as well, and it is hard not to see his own series as a response given the vitriol he has for them and his awareness of how beloved they are. But I do think it's more of 'two can play at this game' than a satire on them.
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Oct 9, 2013 01:36
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Viola the Mad posted:Slate says at one point that Comstock will take more than just his soldiers' past victories--he'll take their bodies too. I don't quite remember the line, but I think Slate fears being turned into a cyborg like the Handymen, which seems pretty horrifying to me. If Slate's company had waited for Comstock's attack, they would have been used for parts. It still doesn't do much to explain the unprovoked attack on Booker. I have to agree with Gen Havoc that the whole Slate section feels thin and his motivation is lacking outside of 'he's crazy'. It's additionally jarring to be fighting automatons right at the moment when Slate is railing against them. Surely he's not so hypocritical as to be the one sending them at you, so it must be mere coincidence, and it all feels a bit lazy compared to most of what's gone on before. I'm also a touch disappointed in Elizabeth's reaction to what happened with Slate. I think it would have been great to have her realize what kind of man Booker is and then be more and more disgusted and horrified at his actions, while still comprehending that she is stuck with him as her only ticket out. It would also bring up some nice complications if she does turn out to be Booker's daughter. I don't think the game has lost the thread, but it feels like there have been some missed opportunities. That said, the combat at the end truly was the best I've seen so far. It almost makes up for any other weaknesses from earlier. That was easily the best fight and really shows off how fantastic it can get when they give you room to work. Including the ending -- nicely dramatic, Sundowner.
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Oct 15, 2013 03:25
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Some of the details have been mentioned in the thread already, but Slate referred to Custer again before he died. General Custer was in charge of the 7th Cavalry when he was killed at Little Bighorn. The 7th ended up being the unit that perpetrated the Wounded Knee Massacre, when Booker and Slate both were in it. It is possible that given his age Slate had been in the 7th at the time of Little Bighorn as well (Booker seems pretty unlikely barring time shenanigans, as it was over a decade earlier). Contrary to what many think, the 7th was not destroyed at Little Big Horn – Custer's battalion was wiped out and there were heavy losses in the rest of the regiment, but the unit survived. Indeed, the way the battle proceeded was roughly Custer saying to one battalion, "You attack, and I'll go around and get them from the other side." The first attack was quickly repelled, as Custer had greatly underestimated the size of the opposing force. When Custer went in there was no hope of success; in fact it's possible Custer was aware of his situation and decided to charge hoping to disrupt the enemy rather than let them surround him first. Either way it didn't work out. Possibly there are meant to be some parallels to Slate's actions and Custer but it doesn't seem all that likely. Interestingly enough, roughly the same number of soldiers earned the Medal of Honor at Wounded Knee as at Little Bighorn, despite the rather distinct difference between the "battles". (Of course, all these facts are moot if this is an alternate timeline.) Also something I noticed in the video: One of the songs played is Scott Joplin's "Solace (A Mexican Serenade)", which was written in 1909. But the version played starts in the middle of the piece, and is at a very slow tempo, pretty much exactly in the way Marvin Hamlisch arranged it for the 1973 movie The Sting, which is probably the most commonly-heard version of it. Here's a piano-roll version for comparison.
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Oct 15, 2013 18:51
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Looking at that map now, and knowing a bit about Columbia, it's actually really really strange that it doesn't go out to the West Coast, and that the farthest west stop, even if it is on a rail line, seems to exist maybe only as a tourist stop. It seems the timeline is more different from ours than was originally thought. As for the last update, I did find it kind of odd how poorly Booker is able to tell a lie to Elizabeth. And it doesn't come off as him not knowing what to do, it comes as forced in order to prompt her reaction. Most of what she says about him she ought to have already figured out by now. Kangra fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Oct 22, 2013 |
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Oct 22, 2013 02:27
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Dr. Buttass posted:Nah, Pinkertons were an actual thing. Booker also definitely has a card identifying him as a Pinkerton (shown early on among his effects, and it also gives other personal details).
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Oct 29, 2013 23:58
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Possibly there is something meaningful about Columbia avoiding the West Coast and having an apparently important role in the Boxer Rebellion that is specifically related to their (or Comstock's) views on the Chinese. It does seem odd that even in Finkton Lin would be advertising with his name like that, though. You'd expect him to just say 'Gunsmith' but perhaps he's using it to filter out people who don't want to deal with him because he's Chinese. Kangra fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Nov 3, 2013 |
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Nov 3, 2013 01:46
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America was personified as the female figure Columbia well before Comstock came around. (Something particularly interesting in that article is a cartoon depicting Columbia protecting a Chinese worker in 1871).
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Nov 3, 2013 07:04
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I don't know how this one is going to turn out, but the Bioshock twist also seems to involve an intentional tweaking of traditional gameplay. The original did it best how much of a role does the player actually have when the plot constrains them?, and the second one is a bit weaker what is the proper role of an NPC and I'm hoping this one does something similar. As for the name itself, the original conception seemed to focus a bit more on the mutations and changes to the bodies of the splicers instead of just effectively giving them superpowers. I think it still makes sense, though. And as long as we're talking about history, the concept of the audio diary filling out the story originates in System Shock and has carried through to all the games (and into others). In my opinion it has the best execution of the idea of arriving just after the recordings were made, too.
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Nov 6, 2013 20:10
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Arglebargle III posted:You're completely wrong about what Bioshock infinite is commenting on, and you should delete this spoiler despite being so wrong. Are you saying I'm wrong about Bioshock 2, denying its status as a sequel, or wrong about Bioshock Infinite? If it's the last one I haven't actually speculated anything about what I think could happen. At this point I'm only hoping it goes in a particular direction and have no idea whether it will. In case you've confused my spoiler for this game, not Bioshock 2, I'm aware that each of them has borrowed similar ideas from the other and that's not the only thing going on in that game. And even with respect to BS 2 I don't even think it quite succeeds, but I'd argue that's some of what they were going for.
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Nov 7, 2013 03:46
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Wild speculation: I'm starting to think that at the end we'll reach a point where Booker will jump back to the start of the game. Given that some tears lead to another time, he may well be stuck in a stable loop. I kind of doubt they'd do this from an endgame gameplay standpoint (if this is the case, I'd expect something more like Looper), but it would be pretty cool if that actually happened. Also, it would explain the Luteces and the R & G Are Dead reference to some extent. Actually, that raises another question: Are the anachronisms because the alternate dimensions are simply mis-aligned sidewise in time, or are they actually capable of jumping to different time points in the same dimension? It would seem to be the former, although it could be the case that it ends up not being important (i.e. you can jump to the 'same' dimension, but it changes once you enter and therefore isn't really the same). Kangra fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Nov 14, 2013 |
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Nov 14, 2013 07:34
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"I dreamed I saw deWitt last night, alive as you and me." I really liked Daisy's speeches in this section. Her delivery is pitch-perfect. <spoilers for update just posted> Thank goodness you hopped on board that zeppelin, killed everyone on it, and then destroyed it. Those things are dangerous. Now, on to finding an airship so you can get away from Columbia. Things are getting crazy, and you need to get out as soon as possible.
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Nov 26, 2013 19:49
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Is the evacuating barge driver not supposed to be Comstock? I thought it was a nice touch to show how he'd been reduced to fleeing with whatever he could grab, but then I watched it again and the subtitles just say 'Driver'. Are we supposed to pretend that we don't recognize him there, or is it just lazy use of voice actors?
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Dec 15, 2013 20:41
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Samovar posted:Ok... was NOT expecting them to use the whole time/death duality thing that way, but it's clever - I like it. Although, it does give rise to the question; why don't the twins suffer from a similar condition? They were digging up persumably their own graves... hell, why doesn't EVERYONE in this hellish sky-city suffer from it? If Lizzie can access any point in any universe, then it stands to reason that there's a universe where that person is dead... unless I'm missing something. The difficulty with multiple dead versions only seems to affect those around the tears, so not necessarily everyone. Not that it's entirely consistent, though, from what we've seen. Animating Lady Comstock's ghost seems to have been something Z. Comstock was able to manipulate Elizabeth into doing, maybe. I imagine the dead hand as a key is a homage to System Shock (where a severed head was used in a retina scanner), but they managed to make something interesting out of it with the sudden ghost.
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Jan 23, 2014 21:01
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I still think there's a good chance that the game ends with an endless loop: We might get an explanation, but the outcome never changes. I'd like to see the game pull it off, too. It is possible to make a story like that interesting (cf. Twelve Monkeys). Even if the Luteces are 'twins', there still seems to be the possibility of any other character being a time-shifted version of another. It may well be the case that Daisy in the alternate reality literally is the same as Comstock. That is something I really hope isn't the case, though.
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Mar 3, 2014 02:23
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I know where Booker came from, but where did all you Bookers come from? One thing that is bothering me a bit really is how far-reaching the changes from one timeline/dimension can be to another. We saw the statue change, which implies either a tear opened up close by, or that something else changed it. Possibly that was just the Luteces, who are screwed up somehow, but now I think there may have been other things being altered within the current timeline.
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Mar 5, 2014 07:05
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I gather that it was old Elizabeth and not Father Comstock who made the 1983 invasion, meaning we still haven't seen who started the 1930 invasion. The game was also way too coy with the audio logs in that section; it's practically a given that cryptic and vague references are not referring to what the player (or at least Booker) 'thinks' they are. And if not, they'll just be needlessly avoiding a twist for the sake of setting it up. But I do agree the atmosphere is fantastic in that section. Iceclaw posted:Which makes it very ironic for the residents of Colombia to refer to the other countries as Sodom, considering their stance on the poor and needy. Careful with the spelling there. The South American nation has about a third of its citizens in poverty and a fairly high Gini coefficient, but has improved quite a bit over the last few decades. Kangra fucked around with this message at 23:56 on May 2, 2014 |
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May 2, 2014 23:53
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:
Whenever it was that Booker was first told "Bring us the girl" and he saw Columbia attacking New York. I don't think we have a specific date, other than that it's post-Chrysler Building and Empire State. Sometime in the 1930s may be a better way to put it. It seems like 1930s Booker was sent back to try and save 1912 Elizabeth to prevent her from coming to power. But presumably if he doesn't get to her after being captured, the 1983 invasion occurs; if he does get her out, maybe Comstock initiates the 1930s invasion anyway. I went back to find that scene and also noted that 1912 Comstock was aware of what Booker was told, meaning that Comstock must have had some information from that timeline. I prefer to imagine each timeline as being separate, but interlinked. That means you don't ever go through a tear back or forward on the same line, but sidewise to another one, even if the other one is located at a different point in time. Although to make the plot work it could be the case that passing information into another timeline (either by going through it or drawing on observations) causes one or the other timelines to branch.
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May 3, 2014 02:52
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What 1930 invasion are you talking about?
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It's true that we don't know if it was or wasn't. I'm taking it as real, or possibly jumbled bits of something that was real. "Bring us the girl" seems to be something that was real at least, unless we go down the route of the game being half-hallucination.
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May 3, 2014 02:59
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Booker's baptismal vision is at least different than the 1980s attack, since there was no stock ticker on the building or large billboards. Everything about his office strongly suggests a pre-1950 date, and pre-1940 makes sense just to avoid confusion with World War II. Unless the idea is that this it's part of World War II. Anyway, there are two attacks we've seen, although the reality of one is uncertain.Giggs posted:I thought what you posted was a typo so I made this whole thing but it wasn't a typo and now I don't know what it's for but here you go. Enjoy, someone, anyone. It's your creation. Is it real? (Loved the song at the end on the victrola.)
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May 3, 2014 08:13
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Onan gets just as baldy mangled - he was actually just pulling out ("spilling his seed on the ground") and not doing what is commonly imputed to him, except in an extremely broad sense of 'wasting'. In his case, there was a law that if a married man died without any children, it was actually the duty of a brother to take the widow as a wife, in order to provide her with heirs. Onan didn't like that fact that the children wouldn't be considered his (but apparently didn't seem to mind going to bed with his dead brother's wife). The 'pillar of salt' thing can also be tied to the fact that with changing water levels in the Dead Sea, there can be actual pillars of salt that form.
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May 14, 2014 03:30
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Given the other comments Rosalind makes, it seems like the King Lear reference is a question of determinism vs. free will. Her brother thinks that the events they don't want to happen can be wiped clean, while she is on the side of fate.Gloucester posted:O you mighty gods! And, only slightly relevant to that matter, but somehow fitting to the game, there's this: King Lear posted:Now, all the plagues that in the pendulous air
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May 23, 2014 20:31
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The Booker-Comstock connection was practically being shouted at the player in the last few episodes, and it wasn't too hard to speculate on even earlier. I wasn't expecting Rapture to show up. We need to keep going, on to Citadel and Tau Ceti V. And then a version of Rapture with insect-men. The best ending would be a complete breakdown of the game structure into something like Blazing Saddles. Maybe Booker and Elizabeth break into a variety of genres which the player has to complete as minigames.
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Jul 10, 2014 16:30
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As much as the plot and character motivations break down at the end, one thing that I really like about the game is the metacommentary on game design. Just as all the millions of Bookers end up being forced into the path of heading to Columbia, meeting Elizabeth, and in the end killing Comstock, so too there are millions of players who do the same thing. The question is raised of how different really is the experience of players who all perform actions in slightly different ways, and even make alternate 'choices', but in the end are all forced into one eventual path by the constraints of game design. It would almsot be worth it to add an online component to the game, where when you see the Lighthouses Between the Worlds you would actually see other players experiencing the same scene. I'm also wondering, based on the hint that Comstock had native ancestry and might have had sympathy with them when no one else did, and later goes on to write incendiary racist speeches, if this isn't somehow meant to be a reversal of what Asa Earl Carter did.
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Jul 25, 2014 16:42
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