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Skyrim is a lovely and twodimensional game and no amount of modding is fixing it anyways. That being said, I am sure this will take off, as gamers have proven to companies in the past again and again that they are impulsive customers with too much money and very poor self control that'll pay gladly for unfinished tech demos, so this is the logical next step. I am also sure it will every bit as retarded as it looks like. I can only hope for software developers (you know, the people that actually make the games, remember them?) that they realize that mods are in some cases one of the reasons people buy the game because they know it'll be expanded and provide replay value through modding for free and when people see workshops full of price tags they might not bother with the game to begin with.
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Apr 24, 2015 11:42
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JerikTelorian posted:Yeah, this so what it boils down to. People will pay. The only hope is that in the long run it affects sales of TES6 and Fallout 4. Of course, in the long term people will also pirate mods, that is an absolute given I think which doesn't even need to be discussed. I would not even be suprised if you could download some of the now sold mods already somewhere. I wonder if it's going to be like it was for copy-protected games, where they once reached a phase where it was a lot more effortless to download the pirated game than to try to get the DRM-bogged original version running. I also wonder if mod creators that pretty much expect people to fellate them at every step and don't take well to criticism realize that the people's attitudes will change when they paid for something that is not working or not working well or even not working as expected. Especially when you consider what a minefield of incompatibility mods traditionally are. I heard Valve offers no-questions-asked chargebacks for 24h on these mods, but only into the steam wallet. Not even considering mods that are often dependent on the framework laid down by other mods. How is that going to be resolved? Also what happens when a mod creator rips content of commercial games off and nobody really notices until months later? (I have seen this a lot with New Vegas on the Nexus) That would create a situation of Valve charging (and earning) money with the works of some other company. They remove the mod and then? Chargeback? Refund? Legal consequences for the Modder? What if it turns out the modder was some 12 year old who wasn't really allowed to use the platform to begin with? All the while Valve is cashing in on the work of the modders without having to really do anything for it. I never used the Workshop for Skyrim when it first came out because I always had a bad feeling about Valve centralizing access to everything so much. They should probably rename "the Workshop" to "the Sweatshop" though. (as 25% of all profits sounds like a really lousy deal for all the additional responsibility and butthurt you will have to deal with) That all being said there now probably is a legion of people starting work on big mods on their game of choice with the hope they will be the next modding mogul. We have seen this already with the "Indie"-developer bunch. Police Automaton fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Apr 24, 2015 |
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Apr 24, 2015 13:13
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Also that thought you often have about games these days in order of "I guess they modders can fix that eventually so no biggie" will now always have the "but at what cost?" attached. Would anyone still play Skyrim if it wasn't moddable? I have my doubts. There are quite a few games that had their lifetime (and sales) extended by heavy modding, if this becomes prohibitively expensive people just might not bother with the game anymore and move on. It's not like there's a shortage of games to play. The question is if this really will impact sales on an older game or if nickeling and diming of the people still stuck with it will make more money. I wonder if we will see easily moddable game "platforms" with lots of graphics assets and other practical additions that are free to download but will produce their money through paid for mods. Remember second life? One good thing came from this though, I was about to have my yearly reinstall of Skyrim to see what modders have produced only to get bored after a few days of downloading mods in my sparse free time. I guess I'll skip that now. So, thanks valve! 
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Apr 24, 2015 14:17
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I can remember when Steam came up with Half Life 2 and people were pissed because they thought it is insane to register your game online or to not physically own the game you bought. People vowed to never use Steam. We can all see how well that worked. They will roll over for this poo poo too and slug all their complaints out with the mod creators who will have all the work for a pittance. That being said, some will probably also make a tidy amount of money. I guess Valve just created a new industry, wherever we like it or not. To be fair, modding with the whole community thought behind it has already been dead for a while, since all these ultraspergs like arthmoor got into it. Now they will get money instead of likes and some of them will maybe even make a job of it. That's modern gaming for you.
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Apr 24, 2015 14:38
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Pakled posted:This also really doesn't bode well for future Bethesda titles and I'll bet dollars to donuts that the next TES game is going to have some licensing thing that further increases the control Bethesda has over mods and that'll stifle modders even more. It's not even Bethesda titles, it's every game supporting the Workshop on steam (eventually). This will have big implications. A bizarre conclusion of all this is also that game companies now can passively make income by making their game moddable and leaving stuff out for the players to fill in.
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Apr 24, 2015 14:55
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Ash1138 posted:Well I just uninstalled Skyrim and like 20 gigs of mods so nope. Same. People who say it's silly to avoid certain developers should know that it's entirely possible to *gasp* just not play some games. Have been doing it for years. Crazy, I know. If it makes a difference - well, it does for me and my wallet, and yes, I do care about if I paid 2 bucks for something or not. It's not like skyrim was a stellar game or anything. The only thing that made it interesting was looking at neat mods for free go "huh nice" have the game crash eventually from mod overload and then never ending up playing it to begin with. This thread was way more active than the Skyrim game discussion thread, compare that to the Fallout thread where people kept philosophizing about the game for years. You wanna pay a few hundred bucks for that privilege? Haha, gently caress that. Let's be honest here, besides stuff like SPERG (which is a big special case) most mods really don't have any production quality, often are buggy and well... you just know you have a mod in your game. That level of quality is really not worth any money, and gokufan69 promising future versions and added features if you buy his mod at the low price of five bucks now is not really something very promising or something I'd rely on. Especially when he can pull the plug on his mod and keep your money at any time. Even if he doesn't, we all ran into situations where a mod first seemed like a good idea, and then it turned out it broke the game or the developer kept updating it into an unplayable state. You really want to put your money on the line for that? This would have gone over a lot smoother if they would have implemented paying for mods for the next Bethesda title from the get go. Why they decided to do this on a game that has been out for years boggles the mind. Seeing that they closed down discussion on this at steam tells me they were not really prepared for this reaction. Also it's amazing to me that their community managers there still think in TYOOL 2015 it is smart to try to shut down discussion on a particular issue. This always ends up just making people madder. It's not like you can tell the entire internet to shut up.
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Apr 24, 2015 22:29
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Cantorsdust posted:Bethesda puts out broken games. Modders release mods to fix the games. Now Bethesda gets a cut on both the game and the mods, so they actually have an additional profit incentive to put out bad games. They'll make up whatever lost sales with additional mod sales to fix the poo poo that was their fault in the first place! If this takes off this is what modding games will generally be like, not only for Bethesda titles.
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Apr 24, 2015 22:58
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KakerMix posted:Voting with your wallet is taking part in capitalism in it's purest form and I never understand when people try to shame others by doing it. It also killed Maxis and ended up making EA *slightly* less scummy. People are underestimating the effect of voting with their Wallet because it takes many months sometimes.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:19
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Collecting old cars is also an expensive hobby so gaming should be more expensive because reasons.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:23
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StopHangingDjs posted:I really can't wrap my head around how not buying something is never a reasonable decision? gotta have all them games
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Apr 24, 2015 23:41
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from cheskos reddit comment:quote:Real-time update - I was just contacted by Valve's lawyer. He stated that they will not remove the content unless "legally compelled to do so", and that they will make the file visible only to currently paid users. I am beside myself with anger right now as they try to tell me what I can do with my own content. The copyright situation with Art of the Catch is shades of grey, but in Arissa 2.0's case, it's black and white; that's 100% mine and Griefmyst's work, and I should be able to dictate its distribution if I so choose. Unbelievable. bwahaha
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Apr 25, 2015 00:26
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:So Valve has officially gone mad with power. Cool That stance makes complete sense though, as I think derivative work is covered in Bethesdas EULA as basically being owned by them. So the conclusion of this, if Valve/Bethesda (or any other company in the future with similar permissions) are willing to go that far is that they could take a bunch of mods for future games, put them out as DLC (or integrate them into it) and never pay the mod maker a single dime. The step of doing that has gotten significantly smaller now. It's kinda funny how they make EA look like a bunch of nuns trying to raise money for a childrens hospice like now. EDIT: ducking autocorrect Police Automaton fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Apr 25, 2015 |
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Apr 25, 2015 00:36
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It is reasonable for the customer, but the thing for the mod creator is just that you completely lose control over any kind of original content (meshes, textures) you make and hand it over to Valve/Bethesda. Forever.
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Apr 25, 2015 00:46
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Bifner McDoogle posted:It kinda feels like Beth could have sidestepped this shitfest and still made a load of cash by making a one-time additional payment forthe ability to use mods in their future games, they'd get lots of cash with absolutely zero effort and while most of us would certainly hate that it wouldn't introduce the mountain of legal issues that will arise from this. I'd buy it at least. Subscription to the Workshop? They can still do this on top of it. 
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Apr 25, 2015 00:51
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Dapper Dan posted:Sooner or later that company is going to exploit its position. Exactly, things like this are only possible because Valve having such a monopolistic position. That's why you always should throw the underdog a bone.
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Apr 25, 2015 01:14
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I'd be very surprised if there isn't already a torrent with all the mods out there right at this moment.
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Apr 25, 2015 03:31
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Scyantific posted:
I'll also call another thing. There will be communities around the pirated mods and there will be a "pirated mods" scene. Some few people will legit make good money off mods while most will be workshop "hundredaires" who would earn better money on the hour if they'd take up a part time job stocking shelves at the supermarket. The only one really profiting off this will be the companies behind it. Already now the skyrim launcher and steams insistence on loving around with the data folder is crap if you use more than three mods and 3rd party launcher are worlds better, making mods downloaded via torrent actually more comfortable to use. This might lead in the future for future games to some ham-fisted mod DRM which will only gently caress over legitimate buyers of mods while the people pirating mods will be largely untouched by this, like it often is the case for DRM of content.
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Apr 25, 2015 05:14
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there is!
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I already found the mod subreddit and there's pretty much every interesting mod already linked to download on there (including the ones steam closed down). I have lost all interest in Skyrim (it was pretty small to begin with and I just revisited occasionally to look at mods) but it is a very interesting thing to watch how people organize themselves online ad hoc when something like this happens. I don't know anything about reddit, don't they have a policy against pirating or is it pretty much fine?
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Apr 25, 2015 05:40
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As has been said earlier, as long as one company alone gets into a position where it pretty much can dictate what will happen in a particular market, you will have things like this happening. Companies don't really follow philosophies beyond "profit". I don't know why people think valve is their friend or something, they'll do whatever they can get away with to make money, just like any other big company in that industry, not better, not worse. You don't get this size by being nice and giving opportunities for profit away because they make you look like a meanie for a week. This does not mean other companies are any different, but as a customer who is somewhat aware of that you should always seek ways to support the underdog when possible, even if that sometimes might mean to not follow the absolute cheapest and most convenient way. That way the market will have something that it's often lacking in many things internet-related - competition. Competition is healthy, competition stimulates progress and lowers prices, competition is good for you as customer. People will probably take a poo poo on this post because nowadays it's uncool to care and we apparently live in a nihilistic vacuum where nothing ever matters or something, but well, it's what I think.
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Apr 25, 2015 08:11
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Strategic Tea posted:Not to mention that like 90% of extra armours and stuff are cobbled together from (or wholesale copy-pastes of) models from the Witcher 2. CDProjekt was always cool with it because they're a ridiculously reasonable company, but now that people are charging for their work...? I did some armor modding in New Vegas for a while and basically every armor I looked at which wasn't a composite of existing game armor was ripped off from some other game and either retextured or slightly changed. Every single one. I know this so well because I looked at the original armors from those games too and it was quite apparent. This already was infringement and even if the Nexus had rules against that sort of thing it was largely ignored I guess in parts because they really would have to take down pretty much every mod and nobody gained really a direct profit from and who cares, really. Now that there's money involved this will change, and I doubt it is much different for Skyrim and some of the "original" assets from some modders.
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Apr 25, 2015 13:59
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Shocking revelation: Corporations care primarily about profit. In other News: Politicians don't always tell the truth. News at 11.
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Apr 26, 2015 00:10
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Octal posted:(crosspost) Man, for the businesses involved that's chump change. I can't imagine this shitfest is worth it. Also this is probably the best the stuff will ever sell, it'll only taper off from this point on.
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Apr 26, 2015 01:49
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lmao steam banned people left and right. Jesus.
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Apr 26, 2015 02:01
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Ddraig posted:Paid will always be given precedent. So if you have a free mod that does the same thing, you're poo poo out of luck as it will never be allowed to compete with something that makes Valve/Bethesda money. Free market at its finest! I think most people just won't bother with buying mods and the only damage this will really do is destroying big mod communities and the long shelf-life of the games attached to them. Mods will probably only be done anymore by the likes of Arthmoor who have literally nothing better to do (he's unemployed) and are perfectly happy with getting the scraps of the game owner's table. If there's really absolutely no way to make mods outside the system of payment, I think most normal people that get into modding otherwise will just not bother with that particular game to begin with. Seeing how badly Valve reacted to the reaction by the players I think they really have no idea of their customer base in that particular regard. Also mod pirating. Lots and lots of mod pirating. Even if there might be mod DRM in the future, you think people won't get around that? Games are still usually cracked within days of release.
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Apr 26, 2015 02:11
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Lol the new SkyUI has already been leaked before it hit the workshop.
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Apr 26, 2015 02:50
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ETPC posted:how does that even happen when the only thing between a modder and putting something up is a computer. I assume either a beta tester (if they have any?) or even a Team member who doesn't approve leaked it. You know, in a way this is also great. I always detested how modding went from being a small hobby for people interested in games and game design and people "just screwing around with the engine" to these humongous and partially ridiculous mod projects as something to enlarge your e-peen and have that tiny little chance to make it big and work for one of the big studios. The Nexus amplified that lovely stuff x1000 by doing stuff like banning people who said negative things and that's why it is such a poo poo community. The quality of the Mods didn't really objectively improve because of that attitude either, it just made people who also had the capabilities/time not bother because they didn't want to deal with all that poo poo and leave everything to these hyperspergs like arthmoor. Now there are paid mods and they split the community and the worst of the worst off. Maybe we'll see more of that former modding again where people just do it out of fun. As long as future games let you even do that, that is.
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Apr 26, 2015 03:03
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Skyrim Modding/Troubleshooting: It's about ethics in Modding
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Apr 26, 2015 05:16
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graynull posted:Has there ever been any official word from Bethesda or any legal precedent as to who actually owns mods? I've read a few things about possible coverage as 'derivative works' and the publisher's claiming ownership and such, but nothing solid about where it definitely stands from a legal standpoint. Wasn't there a huge fuzz (back when the creation kit for Skyrim came out) that the EULA of it basically pointed out that Bethesda owns all derivative works? I have something like that in my memory. Which is also interesting because it is quite possible to make mods without the kit. (but I guess, impossible to upload them to the Workshop that way, nice thinking Bethesda) You people should just all play Daggerfall.
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Apr 26, 2015 05:19
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Dagerfall even has inbuilt nudity and skimpy clothing by default!
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Apr 26, 2015 07:43
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Even if you don't have any issue with paying for mods, there is this problem that mods contrary to DLC or games have absolutely no baseline of even implied quality assurance. They can literally be "whatever". In a marketplace that might one day be flooded with paid mods for a game, it's very possible that the whole thing becomes very opaque regarding if a mod is good or not (even more than it is already now). So, you buy a mod, don't like it, or the developer stops supporting it, or a patch breaks it.. and then? Then nothing. You as a customer (which you are when you have paid for a mod) have absolutely no recourse. Valve/Bethesda take the lion cut, but take absolutely no responsibility for the content THEY sell (and yes, they sell it, not the modder). There are absolutely not even the slightest guarantees and the mod is pretty much sold "as is", everything lies in the hand of some anonymous "unprofessional" mod maker which quite honestly, as a private person even by law of some countries would not be able to give such guarantees even if he wanted. The customer gets an incredibly lovely deal here. How many industries do you know where a company sells a thing it takes absolutely no responsibility for?
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Apr 26, 2015 22:11
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Wiggly Wayne DDS posted:I don't think anyone's pointed this out yet so I'll open up a can of worms. What is the legal status of NexusMods.com? Beforehand they were running a premium download service and accepting donations. Legally that can be dismissed as sustainability (server maintenance, etc), and it's a hobbyist site so realistically no one would go after them. I don't even play skyrim anymore but this whole thing is very interesting to watch. The internet is great for decentralization, but what do people do? They flock to one provider for everything out of convinience, then that one provider starts to do whatever he wants and people have no recourse because well, it's the only provider for that particular service left. If the mod landscape for skyrim would have been more fragmented than steam/nexus, this entire thing would have never been viable. People should learn to stop putting all their eggs in one basket. Also I am entirely sure steam will want to push the nexus off the face of the planet one way or another eventually. They are competition. Now more than ever.
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Apr 27, 2015 12:48
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iGestalt posted:Indeed - I could see this happening. I wonder if Nexus will try to charge for mods eventually but only take 25% of the cut? I wonder if they -could- do that? I don't think the Nexus/modders are allowed to take money for a mod (they don't do this now even, you pay Valve/Bethesda, not the modder. It seems like this difference doesn't matter, but it does). They could charge for a membership to the site maybe, but even there I don't know if that is possible. What the future will hold is subscriptions to games stored somewhere online anyways. Enjoy paying monthly for games. With some expensive applications this is already kind of happening.
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Apr 27, 2015 13:35
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Wylo posted:This is an unrealistic conclusion to draw. Even if Valve did decide tomorrow to take on the wildly unpopular and legally dubious Sisyphean task of stamping out every unofficial Skyrim mod distributor on the internet, they'd have to convince Bethesda that it's to their benefit to kill all the mods with nudity or licensed material that Valve can't or won't host on Steam. It is not going to happen tomorrow and it is not going to happen with Skyrim, but I am pretty sure that it is going to happen with future games by making modding outside of the Steam platform a problem. I am not going to say that it will be impossible to mod outside of steam (as making that impossible would be difficult, I'd wager) but we are going to see a much bigger forced integration of the modding tools into the platform. If mods are only going to happen/be legal (I have no idea how the latter could look, I am not a law-man) inside the platform, this will kill big sites like the Nexus. Weirdos like loverslab will always find their way (to titty elves) I guess. A Stupid Baby posted:They have ads and a "premium" membership model. Yes but the Ads have nothing to do with the accessibility of mods and the premium model is purely optional and doesn't give you any real and serious advantage in getting mods. Putting the mods behind something like a paywall is the thing I wonder about. Also there is no way they are gonna scuttle this model. Just wait a month, the overwhelming mass of people will just accept this as a thing and move on. Police Automaton fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Apr 27, 2015 |
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Apr 27, 2015 14:24
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flyboi posted:That seems like a pretty backwards stance when people that are listing mods for-pay on Steam have the option of sending a %age of proceeds to "service content providers" and Nexus being one of them. If a modder selects this option Valve takes a 5% cut of their own revenue and gives it to whichever service provider they specify. The split then becomes 25% modder, 25% valve, 45% bethesda, 5% nexus. So? Just because they do this now means they don't intend to eliminate competition in the future? The Nexus (and similar) is a place they can't control, when they try to earn money with selling mods of mod authors, it's not in their interest to have places outside that cause the workshop not to be used and have people offer content for free. It will of course probably always be possible to offer your content for free on steam, still it's in Valves best interest to have it all in one place - theirs. Especially if they expand further on the Workshop model, maybe by adding subscription-based things. The idea is to make money. Every dollar somebody donates to a mod maker on the Nexus is a dollar they don't profit off. They removed the donation links on the workshop. The idea is to get mod makers to sell their mods instead of offering them for free/donations. Police Automaton fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Apr 27, 2015 |
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Apr 27, 2015 16:27
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flyboi posted:That's pretty reaching and If I would have told you that they are going to charge for mods a month ago, you would have said the same. Thug Lessons posted:Yes, that along with the fact that it would be idiotic from every possible business perspective, strongly suggests they have no intentions to shut down the Nexus. I have never said they they will "shut down the nexus", but I am entirely sure they consider it competition and will try to center more and more around their workshop, making places like the nexus just "dry out". But yeah, I am sure Valve/Bethesda etc. only have the community and the people's best interest in mind and don't try to maximize their profit.
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Apr 27, 2015 16:50
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at best.
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At least the titty elves will always remain free.
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Apr 27, 2015 18:38
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I am very suprised they took this thing out and I am sticking to thinking they would have never ever done this. I guess somebody got cold feet, or this just completely undershot the numbers they were counting on in every way. But yeah, this will be back for other games. Maybe for other games it can be done in a more fair way for the customer. I mean, it's one thing to put stupid weapon meshes and hats into a game, (with giving the modder not the chance to screw up anything else) it's a completely other thing to have modders change the entire way how a game works like how it's possible in Skyrim. I can't imagine Valve could ever guarantee any kind of transparency and quality on the latter, meaning it would always be a gamble for the customer. The modder drama at least will be delicious.
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Apr 28, 2015 03:12
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You always will have to tweak ENBs anyways, I've not seen a single one that's doesn't do some stupid crap like adjusting settings to insane numbers where the author obviously didn't know what they even meant or effects counteracting against each other. From experience, the more minimal an ENB is, the better. The rest will look great in some still shots but will be absolutely unplayable, and I don't mean because of the framerates. Usually I take some ENB I like the looks of generally, and then rip everything out that's stupid. Don't be afraid of it. You can get some nice results, especially if you want to set a slightly different tone but it's really quite a bit of effort. I wanted to give this game another go after getting a R9 390 and being slightly disappointed with FO4 overall, and it turns out I just installed a few mods some weeks ago and then never played. So, the usual skyrim experience. But man it's nice how this game just flies on this graphics card and with a bunch of visual tweaks it looks better than many games out now. The only thing I miss is FO4 characters. They look a lot better. Can't wait what modders will do to that game.
Police Automaton fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Mar 13, 2016 |
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Mar 13, 2016 20:03
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I have the habit of limiting my framerate to 30 FPS and I also made the experience that this has adverse effects on script latency, because skyrims game logic is completely tied to how many frames your card can crap out for some absolutely ungodly reason. Carefully tweaking the Papyrus ini setting fUpdateBudgetMS to give the script more time to execute has fixed that issue for me. (1.2 is original, I set it to 1.5 - lowered the latency by about 100 ms to an acceptable ~63 ms on average) Don't set that to insane numbers because it'll affect your framerate badly if your game is too loaded down with scripts. I'd also skip out on mods (or only install very, very few) which check and apply things to NPCs on the regular as I've not only found them to cause stuttering sometimes but also occasionally make the game CTD if there are too many NPCs around. Mind you, it's not because the mods are badly written or technically unsound, it's just because the engine at the end of the day is not really made for that. Also seconding the Mator Smash thing, it's very good. Learn about bash tags and that program and how mods you install actually interact with TES5Edit. I lost the nerve to mod this game any further but I guess I'll see to it again in a few months. 
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Mar 22, 2016 18:09
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Squeegy posted:The community there is apparently far less toxic than the Nexus. Isn't it funny that weird sex perverts are the more reasonable and accessible people when compared to the Nexus. A few months have passed and it's time to attempt to mod and play skyrim again! I'll probably even play it actually this time as I figured mator smash out and it solved all my headaches. Why isn't that tool advertised more? I think this is the first time I don't have mods either conflicting out of my nose or spending hours upon hours solving conflicts in tes5edit which drained all interest in playing the game. Great Tool.
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Jun 5, 2016 14:32
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