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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
Isn't this excessively laudatory since Megatron spent most of the film conspiring with Sentinel to enslave humanity, even referring to Carly explicitly as slave? Not to mention his complicity with the terror attacks against the civilians in Chicago. Isn't that a sacrifice for the greater good? Except Sentinel defines greater by numbers and rank, while Megatron chooses the greater good of a moral category of personhood. It's like in the Pacific Rim thread when you characterised Mothra's destruction of a city as a defense/assertion of christian morality IIRC. We're there innocents in that city Mothra destroyed? What about in Chicago? In both cases you fail to address the underlying pathology of an 'overly particular' and destructive action for the sake of supposed universalist ideals. So why should supposedly egalitarian love inflict the pain and degradation of slavery, terror and death on humans? Here I'll invoke the idea of ressentiment as an explanation for Megatron's actions. ”The ressentiment which results from want of character can never understand that eminent distinction really is distinction. Neither does it understand itself by recognizing distinction negatively (as in the case of ostracism) but wants to drag it down, wants to belittle it so that it really ceases to be distinguished. And ressentiment not only defends itself against all existing forms of distinction but against that which is still to come. …. The ressentiment which is establishing itself is the process of leveling...It must be obvious to everyone that the profound significance of the leveling process lies in the fact that it means the predominance of the category ‘generation’ over the category ‘individuality’.” -Kierkegaard Remember that Megatron lead a slave revolt against the aristocratic, godlike Primes. Sentinel says “We were gods once...All of us!” but he means only the Primes. Megatron lead a slave revolt of morality against exactly this specific privilege. But he didn't aim to level all others upwards to a level with Primes. He wanted to establish abjection as the state of normality and then morally (but not socially) elevate the formerly littlest ones to the highest ranking. To do this he must belittle and drag everyone else down into abjection. Even if it means enslaving humanity for the sake of the wretched Cybertronians, that's permissable for Megatron because it is the universalisation of the status of the littlest ones. To Megatron, no distinction is acceptable if it exceeds that of the wretched. So why does he insist on being in charge, after he has removed Sentinel from his former place and status? “...picture 'the enemy' as the man of ressentiment conceives him—and here precisely is his deed, his creation: he has conceived 'the evil enemy,' 'the Evil One,' and this in fact is his basic concept, from which he then evolves, as an afterthought and pendant, a 'good one'—himself!” -Nietzsce You're right that Megatron doesn't mind being a bitch. The degradation he suffers only intensifies his identification with abjection through the series. He goes from acting from a sense of mission to acting from a sense of personalised identity. In fact he comes to identify so totally with abjection that as Terry pointed out in the previous thread, he wants to be a unifying symbol for his people, an avatar of abjection, or as you put it, 'King Bitch'. This is why he says “I just want to be in charge”, even though it means replacing the Primes and reducing all others to a levelled state of abjection. If Megatron rules, there is a rule by proxy of the abject and wretched who are now are an example of the supreme moral standard, and the inversion of moral value against the class of Primes is completed. If we're going to continue the Christ analogy, then we view Megatron best as a Christ who differs from the religious figure by the fact that he gave into temptation while being tempted early in the film during his time in the archetypal desert by Sentinel (filling in for Satan, he even has a somewhat demonic appearance). Megatron is provoked by Carly's accusation of bitchood not because he doesn't see himself as a bitch but because he realises he has failed in his goal of revolt of moral inversion against the Primes by allowing Sentinel to reestablish every Deception as his personal bitch. Megatron is a Jesus figure who wants to bring the lepers and outcasts into the community but lacks the sole power to heal them first (denied to him in previous films), so instead he transforms (lol) by terror and violence everyone else, innocent and guilty alike, to extinguish all differences of moral category of personhood and prevent rejection by the community (Earth). Note how Megatron gives no indication of concern for the status of humans as bitches and slaves. To him, that is their proper levelled place at the conclusion of a slave revolt in morality- they belong among the wretched now. Megatron's initiative of an attack on Sentinel is motivated to prevent someone like Sentinel from towering (figuratively and literally, he does both for a while and casts out Megs from the same status, denying even the illusion of equality) above and having slaves and bitches. To Megatron, if anyone is a bitch or slave then everyone should now be a bitch or slave. It's like a dastardly re-interpretation of Eugene Debs- “If there is a soul in prison, then I am not free...so gently caress it just throw everyone in there...”. SuperMechagodzilla posted:But anyways, the point is this idea of willingly 'going to jail for love' in a film that's all about varying concepts of freedom. So, having being saved from the planetary imprisonment and involuntary subjection to Megatron's bizarro-christian love for the wretched, Turturro's character is providing ironic commentary on his, in this case, willing subjection to the autobot's oppressive and manipulative brand of love for humanity. It seems like a “He loved Big Brother” type of moment. In the Pacific Rim thread you argued that the jaeger pilots should have aligned with the abject kaiju against the alien and human overlords for the sake of universalist egalitarian solidarity against oppression. You're using very similar rhetoric here, but Megatron doesn't fit your characterisation. Critically, Megatron failed to align with the humans against their Autobot oppressors because he overlooks the contradiction between on the one hand, protecting and morally elevating the Deception wretched, and on the other hand, the necessity to his plans of reducing humanity to the wretchedness of abject slavery. And by not doing so he alienates humanity into the oppression of a perpetual war machine which will only destroy the things he wishes to protect. Fake Edit: Kinda venting in this post because I read SMG's posts in the Pacific Rim thread but can't address his reading except in a film I actually want to watch or a similar one I have already seen. Corsec fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Oct 1, 2013 |
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Oct 1, 2013 06:15
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| # ¿ May 5, 2024 19:59 |
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Sorry, I edited my post a few minutes before you replied. It's the second quote of you plus the paragraph afterwards. I think that there isn't any textual evidence that Megatron's epiphany from Carly's goading is from recognition of her personhood. Quite the contrary. Carly's goading doesn't even reference herself directly or the degredation of her treatment. She has been coded as a bitch, possession and trophy then taunted with slavery by Megatron, and nothing from Megatron gives any challenge or refutation of that either before or after her goading. This is a character who has treated human lives consistently with moral disregard. He comes to a realisation, emotes, then leaves. She's not even worth talking to any further, or explaining himself to. Implicitly she's still viewed as an insect by Megatron. As to the content of his epiphany, rather than addressing the humans in any meaningful way, especially Carly, he goes straight to Sentinel and Optimus. I've already discussed why he repudiates his association with Sentinel...Sentinel's thing is about being a god and master not of the humans but of the transformer underclass. Megatron wants to make sure someone like Sentinel never makes slaves and bitches of transformers, specifically. He's reminded that if Sentinel treats Megatron like a slave, he'll treat all remaining transformers like slave, especially Megatron's little children. It's hard to imagine Sentinel even noticing the humans under different circumstances. Megatron doesn't even notice humans after his epiphany, in the middle of a battlefield full of them. It's worth remembering that Megatron was once up there, on the tower beside Sentinel, till his pathetic begging for equalilty and partnership provoked Sentinel to drive him away in a brutal and humiliating reassertion of his old status in front of Megatron's followers. Remember that the terms of the truce Megatron offers condemns humans to the exact continuation of the objective violence you've identified as part of the autobot system. Who could be more aware of the nature of this system than Megatron? Does Megatron use the chance to barter for better treatment for Carly and the oppressed on Earth? In fact, as Terry points out, he even implies that his own leadership on nearby and not-yet-destroyed Cybertron will give Optimus the "powerful enemy to demonise and use as propaganda to subjugate the human race". So where in that is your fighter against this 'horrible state of affairs' on Earth if he is complicit in it's further intensification? Again, I'm co-opting your off-thread rhetoric about how the jaeger pilots should have allied with the kaiju against all oppressors. So if Megatron is fighing against objective violence, why did he fail to ally with the humans, expressing solidarity with Carly and the misguided soldiers, rather than going straight to make a deal with Optimus Prime? Corsec fucked around with this message at 10:36 on Oct 1, 2013 |
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Oct 1, 2013 10:22
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I think that Megatron's intentions towards humans in particular are really important for understanding his values/motivations in this film. Megatron's act of destroying the statue of Lincoln and replacing it with himself is an example of his ressentiment thinking. By destroying/displacing/usurping the place of a symbol of the rejection of slavery and assertion of freedom, Megatron isn't merely signalling the re-emergence of literal historical slavery but is symbolically engaging in inversion of value. As well as placing himself, and abjection by proxy, as the object of reverence, he is also asserting the non-contradiction between a new literal slavery and it's goals of service to the abject. His ressentiment collapses following his rejection by Sentinel because while slavery is still a viable plan with Sentinel's now-sole leadership, it is now no longer possible to establish a completed inversion of moral values within and above society. It is therefore Sentinel who destabilizes Megatron's ability to ignore the cognitive dissonance generated by the contradiction between his actions and his convictions, not his encounter with Carly. All Megatron's internal conflicts have been therefore been established when Carly forces him to fully confront them and goads him into resolving them. Carly doesn't provide a new source of internal conflict for Megatron, she is the catalyst to his internal conflict and proves that continued inaction is inconsistent with his moral convictions. I agree that Megatron then turns away from ressentiment, finds himself 'all too human', and then rejects his previous plans to fight oppression through establishing a justified oppression. I'd disagree there is textual evidence that he has committed himself to any postitive ethical duties to humanity, for reasons stated in my previous post and because Carly forces Megatron to look inwards, not outwards at her and her own status/treatment. While his attempt to reach a truce with Prime would have opened a better space for that to happen, I see little evidence for his interest in positive duty other than what stems from his attachment to and identification with the abject. Before his death he has only went so far as (possibly temporarily) respecting the negative liberty of freedom from slavery for humans, and was motivated to do so to protect his own people from slavery and detestable morality/values. Corsec fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Oct 2, 2013 |
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Oct 2, 2013 15:55
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