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I generally don't fangirl out about this stuff - but I'd poo poo my pants in glee if Cassandra Cain gets a reference. DC's best new character in years, and her absence in the New 52 is yet another "Jesus Christ, does anyone know what they're doing over there?" moment. But the crazy thing is that someone like Cassandra Cain would work well with Arrow's styling of the DC universe.
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Oct 24, 2013 13:55
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I lived in Vancouver for a year and adore the many, many BC landmarks that pop up. As for the "Is Green Arrow like Batman?" argument, I think it depends on what version of the heroes you're running off of. Batman's modern characterization really changed in the 90s, with a bunch of writers emphasizing how much of a dick Batman is. M everything from Tower of Babel to Infinite Crisis is one big honking reminder that Batman's a paranoid delusional boy pretending at being hero. There are SOME writers who chose to downplay elements of that characterization (Greg Rucka wrote a Batman who was down to earth and grounded but still gave in to his darker paranoia), but at this point Batman's defined largely by his placement in the DCU. Along with Superman and Wonder Woman, batman is the face of superheroics in the DCU. I don't think anyone got their characterizations quite as well as the Justice League Unlimited folks. There's a fantastic running gag about Batman being both a founding member and never formally joining, giving him the flexibility to opt out of anything while simultaneously funding and basically running the longterm plan for the team. Meanwhile, Ollie is the guy who joins because he wants to a) get laid and b) save people. He makes a lot of noise about the wrong directions the team heads in, but he always makes those noises WITHIN the team itself. TLDR version - go watch Justice League.
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Oct 26, 2013 22:17
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Holy hell. This won't mean anything to non-comic fans, but the Russian guy in the cell next to Oliver? That's freaking KGBeast!
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Oct 31, 2013 19:53
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So what season do we think Slade will show up as a Big Bad? Then again, Deathstroke is a character that could conceivably grow to be an antihero, so who knows?
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Nov 2, 2013 00:42
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I really do respect that Roy isn't suiting up and hopping on rooftops yet. The writers are absolutely right that showing a rookie kicking rear end would take away from Oliver's own five year training journey.
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Nov 2, 2013 03:05
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I came at the "sara is alive" twist from a very different direction. If they had just shown her getting sucked down a whirlpool like in the pilot and that was it, the reveal would have felt cheap. But the entire point of Laurel's mother coming back was to place the seed that Sara was still alive. I walked away from those episodes going "they're laying track to bring her back if they want." Its not the most elegant of foreshadowing, but it felt like they were playing fair. And I think Lazarus pits could work, if they tone them down. I've ALWAYS hated the idea that in the entire DC universe, its Batman who has a villain that literally has a "I can bring back anyone from the dead whenever I want" card. If they amplified strength or even slowed down aging, I could see it slotting nicely into Arrow's world.
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Nov 3, 2013 09:37
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I'd certainly agree that Arrow's first season was by no means a perfect piece of work, but I thought the first half of the season had enough interesting elements to keep me entertained. Best of all, the show had a great sense of when to tweak the formula. Diggle's banter with Oliver became an early highlight, and his role was drastically expanded. Felicity gave the show some much-needed levity, and quickly became part of the Arrow team. And while Tommy was insufferable in the first few episodes, they very quickly moved him away from the "rear end in a top hat best friend" trope. Looking at wikipedia's list of episodes, I'd reckon that the show found its groove relatively early. Malcolm showed up in episode 9, the kinda midseason finale. That's the one that ends with Ollie laid out in a hospital bed. And I remember watching that and going "Whoa, I'm actually curious to see where they go from here." ---- By contrast, even Agents of SHIELD's best episodes are basically passable monster-of-the-week plots. The show has a distressing lack of serialization or ANY ongoing plot whatsoever. But here's the thing - the networks are full of fun and entertaining procedurals. But Agents of SHIELD has only delivered a few decent 40 minute plots, that only pop when the guest stars turn in great performances. The core cast of AoS is the largest drawback to enjoying the show. There is absolutely no one I give a fig about in that entire group; even Colson seems to lose any allure when surrounded with such bland characters. It's not insurmountable, by any stretch. But even the Whedon shows that struggled (Buffy, Dollhouse) had intriguing elements that weren't being put together well. ---- But christ, trying to judge Agents of SHIELD against Arrow's second season is a bloodbath. This string of great Arrow episodes isn't even really happening because of all the new players bouncing around. The Arrow writers have done an outstanding job at shifting all of its surviving season one characters into new (or new-ish) roles. Oliver's certain he still wants to save the city, but he's not sure how to proceed now that his primary motivation (The List) has been shunted aside. The city's gone straight to hell, objectively worse than last year. And on top of that, he's trying to keep to a new moral code and run his family's company. Diggle and Felicity are no longer letting Oliver bullshit them with vague comments about his past - they're aiding him instead of just helping him this year. Thea is no longer stuck in a weirdly sterile Gossip Girl riff, Moira is atoning for her sins and certainly holding the keys to the season's next big arc, Roy is giving us a human face on what's happening in the glades, Detective Lance is no longer acting like a dumb rear end in a top hat... even Laurel's material is much improved. And then you throw in Brother Blood, Summer Glau, everything with the Black Canary... No contest.
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Nov 13, 2013 18:27
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This is slightly veering away from Arrow, but I really do despise the myth that serialization = low ratings. USA network pulls GREAT numbers for the majority of their shows, and most try to blend a slight serialized story with tightly paced procedural plots. And its incredible how well that formula works. Just spending seven or so minutes in a given forty minute episode on an ongoing thread generates online buzz and fan interest, PLUS the mystery of the week is usually strong too, since it doesn't have to fill every single minute of screentime. I'd lose my drat mind if every television show tried to ape Sons of Anarchy/Scandal/Arrow's devotion to long-form storytelling, but bland procedurals aren't the ratings goldmine they used to be either.
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Nov 13, 2013 19:57
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For reference's sake, here's the newly revamped Amanda Waller from DC's latest reboot.  Goddamn do I hate their redesigns. I'm just happy that Arrow seems to have retained her personality, if not her looks. Narcissus1916 fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Nov 14, 2013 |
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Nov 14, 2013 22:40
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Slightly offtopic, but does anyone else hate Lazarus Pits? Comics have enough of a horrid reputation with cheapening death, but the Pits outright nullify mortality. The fact that they're tied into the mythology of Batman, one of the most street-level characters in the DC stable, has always baffled me. That said, I'm admiring the slow buildup Arrow has been doing with superpowers. I'm totally fine with a "this guy took a serum and punches REALLY Hard" power boost.
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Nov 19, 2013 05:58
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Holy hell, that's fantastic casting news. It also allows me to recommend http://www.dccomics.com/graphic-novels/batman-death-and-the-maidens Reasons to check it out - Greg Rucka was a crime writer (his novels are well worth your time too) who ended up writing for DC starting in the late 90s. He's pretty much my favorite comic book writer ever; he actually writes dialogue that sounds realistic instead of the stilted prose that shows up in most DC and marvel titles. His first graphic novel was a murder mystery set in the arctic; his most critically acclaimed comic series was basically Law and Order: Gotham, focusing on what it'd be like to be a detective or beat cop in a world where guys like Mr Freeze and Firefly hang out together. And Death and The Maidens was meant to be another big push forward - moving Batman into a new phase with the character, and putting certain demons to bed (literal, figurative, you name it). Of course, DC ignored all of that and mistreated Rucka so bad that he's pretty much sworn never to work for the company again. Nyssa was intended, from the ground up, to replace Rha's place in Batman's rogues gallery. Her origin story is unbelievably harsh. She's the sort of character who instantly popped, oozing with potential. And then some other writer decided to ressurrect Rhas Al Ghul (probably on editorial fiat) so Nyssa was killed off in the most anticlimactic way possible. This is like getting a do-over in the most awesome way possible.
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Nov 20, 2013 10:03
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Goddamn, somehow I didn't connect the dots as fast as usual. Dollars to doughnuts that Slade will be the fast to receive a new fancy version of the supersoldier serum, similiarish to the comics. Except way more awesome, because Arrow knows when to junk old ideas and do their own thing. I never thought I'd be watching a legitimately great show where Nanda Parbat is an important ongoing plot point. I do hope that Brother Blood isn't in league with the League of Assassins though; the show already skirts a little too close to Batman Begins. Also, I'm deliriously happy that the show didn't give Oliver an easy way out regarding the Count. I was expecting a lame Dexter deus ex machina to fly in and remove the hard choice Oliver had to make. I'm sad to lose the Count, but drat - one hell of an exit.
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Nov 21, 2013 06:28
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I also think the writing DRAMATICALLY improved from early episodes. I think their plotting has always been better than the average serialized show - but Amell and company had to deliver some very stilted lines. I introduced a friend to the pilot a few weeks back and was shocked by how weak some of the dialogue actually is. Even the best of actors struggle with turning turds into sunshine.
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Nov 24, 2013 08:37
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Yeah, I haven't picked up a DC comic in over a decade but I still have a decent knowledge of their universe just through things like Young Justice, the Batman movies, Teen Titans, etc. And while I've tried to veer away from "event X always makes character Y into Hero Z" spoilers, the creative team at Arrow delights in subverting expectations AND playing with characters who already have a variety of interpretations. Slade himself has been a straight up mook, a deadly assassin, a redemptive antihero, a cackling supervillain - and he's never been a consistent part of any character's rogue gallery. Getting spoiled for things suck, I agree. That's why when I'm writing about Arrow for non-viewers I tend to keep things very vague - "Whoa! A major piece of Batman's mythology is popping up on Arrow this week!" is about as specific as I'll get.
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Dec 2, 2013 21:54
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Just so we're clear, i get that we should move comic-centric discussion to the BSS. But what if I'm writing up my thoughts on the next episode and 90% of my post is talking about the show, but at the end I go "Also cool to see the reference to Amazo with the boat." Is that still kosher or is it a very literal NO DC UNIVERSE rule?
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Dec 3, 2013 02:01
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As per the rules, I've no real knowledge of Barry Allen - I grew up in the 90s where it was all about Wally West. Is Allen's origin always been a key part of his character, or is this from the New 52? As for the actual episode, dayum. Grant Gustin is a great casting coup. The CW does a great job of finding very pretty people who can still act.
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Dec 5, 2013 06:18
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So, is the particle accelerator going to be where Barry gets his powers? I'm also hoping that Sebastian Blood is our midseason villain and goes out next week - that mask of his is hilariously goofy and way too much of a Scarecrow knockoff. At this point they have so many plates spinning that any one of them could take hold and smash the narrative into something new and exciting - this is the first midseason finale where I honestly have no earthly idea what they're going to do. Also also, I liked that Oliver was kinda a dick to Barry. Across all media, Ollie's always been a bit of an rear end in a top hat. Glad to see that's popping up here and there. Rickards was especially good tonight, too.
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Dec 5, 2013 10:31
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Did Moira know about the yacht planning to crash? I remember Malcolm ordered it, but can't recall if she had a direct hand in it or not.
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Dec 6, 2013 09:46
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I greatly enjoyed Barry and Felicity's flirtation - it's a longstanding tradition that superhero team ups involve the visiting guy being a hilarious dick and romancing the hometown hero's love interest. Here's a particularly fun one from the Superman/Batman cartoon crossover. Skip to 2:15 if you want to see Bruce taunting Clark in the most assholish manner possible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe0gt60rNHI
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Dec 7, 2013 00:11
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I'm someone who prefers grounded superhero stories to the more outlandish high science fiction that occasionally becomes popular in the field. (Man of Steel was a proudly SciFi film - and suffered mightily for it) And certainly, I think its valid to get squeamish at the show heading into uncharted waters, even if those uncharted waters are precisely the reason this season has been so engaging. A few friends of mine have voiced the "I want the show to remain grounded!" concerns, and I usually end up defending the show decision to introduce superpowers. And my reasoning is a pretty simple one - We've never seen it before. In the comics, Batman stories usually take place in a world completely devoid of superpowers or one overflowing with craziness. That actual transition between "mobsters with guns" to "lady who controls Plants" has never really been attempted in an ongoing form whatsoever. A lot of great Batman literature is about that transition - Long Halloween comes to mind. But they've all been limited series, meant to slot into that accordion of mythology. Smallville actually started out with nice boundaries and organic explanations for powers - I'll defend the meteor shower as one of the few smart additions their creative team made. But the show so completely botched expanding the world out farther, into Metropolis and beyond. I'm rambling here, but I hope this isn't entirely incoherent.
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Dec 9, 2013 13:11
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Andy Greenwald over at Grantland really got at the heart of Agents of SHIELD's problem - "What's worse, an exploration of the Marvel U's most fascinating corners — like Wakanda, say, or the Savage Land — is also unlikely. Why burn something on a random Tuesday night in October when there's a chance of blowing people's minds with it on a summer weekend in 2019" What's impressed me about Arrow is that its not just throwing their storytelling dick around the DC universe willy nilly. Deathstroke has been a major DC villain for decades and I can't recall the last story that made him a compelling figure. I'm not a big fan of Barry Allen, but I understand why they wanted to go with him - because he fit the world that Arrow is building. And jesus, what a drat complicated set of story arcs they've deftly set up in this half (half!) of the season. Tonight's episode benefitted from bringing everything back to Brother Blood, even if it meant underplaying other characters. Barry got his BIG!GREAT!MOMENTS! last week, for most of tonight's runtime he fades into the background. I tend to focus on the show's pacing, particularly the show's love of throwing big reveals right before you expect them to. In isolation, it shouldn't be a shock to see Slade strolling around Star City. It doesn't take a great detective to discover Black Canary's identity. But these moments work not only because of their timing, but because of the sheer amount of compelling ongoing story strands the show plays with. An old writing teacher always asked us to rewrite a scene between two characters - by adding a third. This inevitably opens up new dynamics and possibilities, and really made the writer think who needed to be in a scene, either for color or tone or plot necessity. And Arrow is doing much the same, but by developing so many arcs that occasionally brush up against each other. Frankly, it's not surprising that Blood is a pawn of Slade's. But I didn't even think of that because I was too busy obsessing over how the writers were going to intertwine the League of Assassins and Blood's agendas. The show's basically set up two polar centers of conflict - Brother Blood (and now Slade) and the League of Assassins (which includes Canary and Barrowman). But orbiting them are an astonishing amount of potential places for story development. ARGUS is biding its time, no doubt to make a grand reappearance once we've established the new status quo with superpowers. HIVE has been teased, for deployment at a later date. Summer Glau's character is... around. Much as I adore this show's pacing, I should applaud their economy as well. The adventures of Sin and Roy and Thea should grate on me. But because they've been isolated to B and C plots, I've actually enjoyed checking in on them. Barry Allen doesn't become the Arrow's savior. He gets Oliver up and running before the opening credits, and then waits his time until he can be sent back to Central City (and his future show.) And that would be infuriating, except that Arrow already has another storyline ready to boil over.
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Dec 12, 2013 11:25
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On the one hand, Smallville helped mainstream comic book heroes years before we got to the Marvel Cinematic Universe, The Dark Knight Trilogy, etc. On the other, I've a bunch of friends who won't give Arrow a chance because "Oh, its from the same people as Smallville." Which it isn't, at all. But same network, I guess.
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Dec 15, 2013 07:41
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I wrote up an article about Arrow's similarities to the Batman films a little over a year ago - http://glipho.com/steven/the-cw-s-arrow-bat-clone-or-bat-successor Not trying to self-promote or anything, I don't even write for that site any more. And The Huntress episodes weren't the worst thing ever - the only part that really soured me is the completely wasted talents of Tahmoh Penikett. Though at least he got to do more than James Callis, who was part of the dullest Arrow episode ever. What was it again? A thief who, like, has a stun rod or something? Oy.
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Dec 18, 2013 17:26
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I've always enjoyed Willa Holland (mainly from her stint on The O.C.), and this season has really done wonders for making her likable. She's allowed to criticize Roy's recklessness without making her sound like a nagging shrew. That is very, very hard to do. Just ask Skyler on Breaking Bad how thin of a line there is between "You're risking your life for something stupid" and "NAG NAG NAG We can't write females worth a drat"
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Dec 22, 2013 04:52
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At the risk of defending Smallville, I really liked how they portrayed the Flash's speed in the first episode he appeared in. I haven't seen it in years, but I liked that they made him faster than Superman. I think The Flash loses a lot of what makes him awesome if Superman is "The best ever at everything, always".
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Dec 28, 2013 13:53
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The wierdest thing about the Super-Roofie is that Bryan Singer thought it was such a good plot point that he used it as the basis for Superman Returns. Goddamn, Superman should not be that hard of a character to get right.
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Dec 29, 2013 01:02
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Superman isn't even the hardest major character to write in the main DC stable. Wonder Woman is notoriously difficult, partially owing to the myriad interpretations and the lack of any central Wonder Woman "Canon" that writers and fans can point to. Much as Arrow has had fun reinventing large chunks of Oliver Queen's world, its pretty easy to point to the stories they took inspiration from. There aren't a ton of Great Green Arrow tales, but if you walk into any comic ship they'll probably point you to Quiver, Longbow Hunters, maybe Winick's run.... All of which, taken together, feel vaguely coherent. While I'd imagine its tough to consistently throw major threats at Superman in an ongoing series (Hey, Smallville!), a Superman movie should be a grand slam. Instead, we've gotten Bryan Singer's masturbation to Donner's version of the character. And Man of Steel didn't even feel like a Superman movie... a conversation I really don't want to get dragged back into. If anything, I think Oliver Queen's best comparison is Daredevil. Because they're both B-list characters, creators are given WAY more leeway to build up their own version of the character. I've seen a lot of "Marvel comics is strangling Agents of SHIELD" posts, but I think DC comics would be just as bad if the CW had a weekly show about Batman.
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Dec 29, 2013 04:39
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Man of Steel's largest problem is that it relegates Superman into a passive role for the ENTIRE FILM. First he's subservient to his father, then his space-father. Then Zod basically says "The only way to beat me is XYZ" and Clark just goes "Yeah, okay, I'll do that." And while I like some of the pieces in isolation (Lois' involvement is great), every subplot further turns him into a supporting character in his own story. I just got done rewatching Batman Begins, and the one thing they absolutely nailed to the wall is how that entire film is Bruce's movie. Everything ties back to him, he's at the crux of nearly every scene. As for the other MoS stuff... I would've cared a lot more about Metropolis getting wrecked if we had SEEN or spent any time there beforehand. The Dark Knight trilogy, even at its weaker moments, always takes pains to give you a good sense of what Gotham is like and why we should care about it. Man of Steel just goes "Oh yeah, metropolis gonna get hosed up!" without investing a single second of screentime to making the audience care. To tie that back to Arrow, I love how this season has really done more to show us the state of Star City. Instead of isolating half the cast to the cavernous Queen mansion, everyone is off in different sections of the city showing us more and more facets.
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Dec 29, 2013 12:05
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Manu Bennett killed that monologue - he's similar to Barrowman in that the writers don't really give them great lines, but they do give them some great scenes to chew on.
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Dec 30, 2013 06:23
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The only person who could pull off the Van Dyke look is probably a hipster, sadly.
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Dec 31, 2013 23:06
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Its hard to say "Laurel has no chemistry with the cast" when we never see her interact with 90% of the cast. They at least involved her with Roy and Thea, so there's progress there.
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Jan 10, 2014 03:02
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So, anyone want to speculate on where the show will be going in the next few weeks? In particular, I'm curious when the show will pivot back to the League of Shadows. I assume brother blood will only last another episode or two - if he stays any longer he'll be taking the focus away from Slade.
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Jan 14, 2014 03:42
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Joss wrote SHIELD's pilot - that's basically the end of his involvement. He's way too busy with basically running and coordinating the entire Marvel Cinematic Universe, focusing mainly on the Avengers film. He might have a phone call or two with Jed and Tancheon about SHIELD every now and then - but every account I've read basically makes it sound like this is a "Joss whedon" product in name only.
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Jan 15, 2014 11:01
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Here's the thing - I'm 80% certain that Barry Allen won't come out of that coma until his pilot. On the other, Arrow's entire joy is placing revelations a good 5-10 episodes before anyone expects them to happen.
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Jan 22, 2014 09:47
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As written on the page, there really isn't much to Sebastian Blood. Lots of clunky lines that indulge in Arrow's worst habit - character's announcing what they're feeling without a hint of restraint. But drat, Alejandro has really been selling it.
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Jan 23, 2014 23:12
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Always interesting to hear a different opinion, and I do think that this season has thrown an ungodly amount of plates in the year. I'm enjoying the rapidfire pacing too much to care, but I can see why some people may not enjoy it. And I do agree that Brother Blood's mask is stupendously awful - such a blatant Scarecrow copy its kinda sad. Alejandro has done a good job with the material, but I still can't quite get over the initial theft.
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Jan 26, 2014 21:34
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I think this season of Arrow has been balls tighteningly fantastic, but I think its also fair to say "I liked the show when it was closer to reality." It reminds me a bit of when I stopped watching Lost in season 2 because the show shifted from a drama about these characters to a drama about the Island's Spooooky Mysteries. And although that may have creatively been the best choice for the show to make, it wasn't a journey I was interested in following.
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Jan 27, 2014 08:41
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Anyone know if there's a website detailing all the Arrow shooting locations? I attended UBC a few years back but haven't really seen a ton of super-obvious Vancouver sights (Like BSG which made no effort to hide anything).
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Jan 28, 2014 02:08
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Awww, now I'm all nostalgic for my time up north and eating an ungodly amount of Vera's with Red Racer beers. I used to head over to the downtown area on the burrard bridge; not surprising that they've filmed around Stanley Park. Also happy to have it confirmed that they probably used some ritzy store and restaurant fronts in Gastown. A bit sad that they haven't made their way over to UBC - Fringe and a few other shows seemed to be filming there every other day. TLDR - Vancouver is pretty drat awesome, just sayin'.
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Jan 28, 2014 04:01
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| # ¿ May 15, 2024 23:01 |
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The CW's ratings can't really be compared to other networks. If Gossip Girl aired on literally any other network it'd be cancelled in a heartbeat - but the CW has set up an entirely different business model. 1) CW execs talk a lot about how their shows have smaller viewerships but crazy passionate fans who buy LOTS of memorabilia. 2) I don't know about Arrow, but the CW markets and has a much better sense of where to air episodes abroad. Nikita had awful ratings in the states but lasted multiple seasons almost entirely on all the money they made internationally. 3) Because the CW has less to program, they generally will stick by a failing program much more than a CBS can afford to. 4) A lot of people are beginning to see Arrow as the marquee CW show - though I'd probably reckon Vampire Diaries is the more indicative show. 5) They're giving Arrow a spinoff. The show will be on for at LEAST another year or two.
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Jan 30, 2014 04:51
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