|
 Log Horizon What is this show? Log Horizon is an anime adaption of a novel series of the same name by Mamare Touno, the author of the Maoyuu Maou Yuusha novels. Players are returning to the MMORPG Elder Tale after a new expansion was released, but find them selves unable to log out. Yes it is another "players get trapped in an MMO" story, but seeing as it is by the same guy who made Maoyu, arha in the Fall thread had this to say: arhra posted:It'll probably end up getting into the political/economic aspects of what happens when hundreds of thousands of people are suddenly dumped into a game-world-made-real with no real pre-existing power structures. For those expecting another Sword Art Online, this does not seem to be anything like it so far. For instance, the main characters are already max level and in the first minute of episode 2 we learn that if you die you just revive at the church which removes that "drama" from SAO. Log Horizon is more "gamey" then SAO, it has popular MMO class structure of tanks/healer/damage dealers instead of whatever SAO was. Characters   Shiroe is the main character. His class is an Enchanter, which is a support class. Before getting stuck in the game he was the "Strategist" of a small party that was famous for being able to clear bunch of Raids.  Naotsugu is the Tank class of the game, Guardian. He is the light hearted/comedy relief large guy of the show.  Akatsuki is an Assassin, which I guess is a DPS/DD class. Despite being the obligatory small-framed female character she's not played for the "creepy" aspect. She seems to somewhat role-play being a Ninja. Why should I watch this? Because DATABASE, DATABASE, I'M LIVING IN THE DATABASE Or as another user in the Fall thread said, the main character is not just an adolescent's idea of a cool dude. The combat, what little of there is so far, seems to be more teamwork based and not "hit the guy a bunch with flashy moves and hope for the best" like in SAO. Demicol fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Oct 12, 2013 |
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 16:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 7, 2024 22:28 |
|
|
 Demicol posted:Or as another user in the Fall thread said, the main character is not just an adolescent's idea of a cool dude. The combat, what little of there is so far, seems to be more teamwork based and not "hit the guy a bunch with flashy moves and hope for the best" like in SAO. I gave this show a lot of poo poo in the Fall thread, but I'll grant you this: it's better than SAO. Not a high bar, but it cleared it. Demicol posted:Log Horizon is more "gamey" then SAO, it has popular MMO class structure of tanks/healer/damage dealers instead of whatever SAO was. SAO had more of an EVE-esque skill based system going on, I think. Though EVE isn't really classless, so much as your class depends on what you're wearing at the time and  I'll stop there.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 16:51
|
|
|
This show has a lot of promise as a dorky and low key show about MMORPG players doing MMORPG kind of things. There's a part in the second episode where they encounter a group of bandits and then have a drawn out battle where they over explain their tactics and what powers they're using and stuff like that. There wasn't anything particularly brilliant they came up with, but treating these encounters the way sports shows treat games could end up working once they encounter something more interesting. That's a lot of 'if's, however. The dorky charm will probably wear off eventually, so hopefully there's something good here.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 17:09
|
|
|
Autonomous Monster posted:
Hmmm... not yet. This show hasn't developed much in terms of plot and conflict. Since everyone just revives when they die a lot of story potential is gone and needs to be made up by something else, but we have no idea what that is yet. Instead they wasted time hammering us over the head with MMO explanations. I like that combat in this show is strategic teamwork instead of BULLSHIT SUPER MOVE and I like that this show will focus more on the political drama, but there just no plot yet.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 17:17
|
|
|
I want to see some quad-kiting wizards and have a group do some massive point-blank area of effect groupings. Summoning and riding the griffons had a distinctive World of Warcraft flavor to it. I think the show can be fun if they do it right. For one, they need to ensure "players" get a goal to shoot for pretty soon. SAO had that right off the bat. Defeat the game and everybody gets to go home and back to their real lives. This "game" doesn't have anything like that yet.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 18:02
|
|
|
Dan7el posted:I want to see some quad-kiting wizards and have a group do some massive point-blank area of effect groupings. Summoning and riding the griffons had a distinctive World of Warcraft flavor to it. I think the show can be fun if they do it right. For one, they need to ensure "players" get a goal to shoot for pretty soon. SAO had that right off the bat. Defeat the game and everybody gets to go home and back to their real lives. This "game" doesn't have anything like that yet. Not having a goal actually seems to be part of the plot currently, so that is being addressed even if only in acknowledging the current lack and players reactions to it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 18:13
|
|
|
Autonomous Monster posted:I gave this show a lot of poo poo in the Fall thread, but I'll grant you this: it's better than SAO. Not a high bar, but it cleared it. Yeah. I think it just needs to stop infodumping so much and just give its characters room to breathe. The main character ain't much so far but he's a million times better than the mary sue self insert wankery that was Kirito. But again, that is some really faint praise. The fight in the new episode kinda showcased the writing problems considering how they infodumped the information during the battle, and then repeated it after the battle for good measure. Saying stuff like "I put this guy to sleep using a sleep spell. This is the name of the sleep spell and it puts people to sleep" makes it sound like your characters are reading from a D&D manual. I'll give it a few more episodes, maybe when (if) it stops infodumping it could turn out better? I just want to believe that sooner or later a show with this premise can be passable.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 18:15
|
|
|
Srice posted:The fight in the new episode kinda showcased the writing problems considering how they infodumped the information during the battle, and then repeated it after the battle for good measure. Saying stuff like "I put this guy to sleep using a sleep spell. This is the name of the sleep spell and it puts people to sleep" makes it sound like your characters are reading from a D&D manual. The production values are nowhere near SAO's, though. That horse anatomy almost made me burst out laughing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 18:28
|
|
|
MadHat posted:Not having a goal actually seems to be part of the plot currently, so that is being addressed even if only in acknowledging the current lack and players reactions to it. Wait...that's the game goal! The info dumping is overdoing it, for sure, but I'm okay with that as long as it stops soon. I think they're trying to establish the milieu. It's a sleep spell to put him to sleep because he's an Enchanter and they can put people to sleep with ... er... things like sleep spells. Most games have a "control" class that casts some sort of stun or mez or sleep, so I can give them some leeway to describe the classes abilities some. If you've played WoW or EQ, you know what a tank is, but if you haven't then they might need to be more descriptive. Maybe? What I find most interesting is the makeup of their little three-person group. A "rogue" class, a tank, and an enchanter. If they don't get a healer class soon, they won't last long. I predict either the girl they're going to save is a good healer, or one of the characters we see while the ED is playing will join their little troupe and be a great healer too.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 18:31
|
|
|
Thread needs a link to the music video for the full version of the OP song.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 18:31
|
|
|
Paracelsus posted:The production values are nowhere near SAO's, though. That horse anatomy almost made me burst out laughing. Oh God yes. Is that a horse or a horse-llama hybrid? And then the griffons have the neck thing going on too. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 18:38
|
|
|
Dan7el posted:The info dumping is overdoing it, for sure, but I'm okay with that as long as it stops soon. I think they're trying to establish the milieu. It's a sleep spell to put him to sleep because he's an Enchanter and they can put people to sleep with ... er... things like sleep spells. Most games have a "control" class that casts some sort of stun or mez or sleep, so I can give them some leeway to describe the classes abilities some. I could not make it more than halfway through SAO or Accel World. I hope this turns out better.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 18:56
|
|
|
grrarg posted:The excessive infodumping is probably due to the show originally airing on NHK-Educational in the afternoon/evening. That will get a much broader audience than the typical late-night anime watched by otaku that are already familiar with MMOs. It is also likely just part of the Authors style, Maoyuu Maou Yuusha can be super info dumpy as well. Will see if they get better about it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 19:07
|
|
|
The first part of Sword Art Online was dumb as hell but slick enough to be watchable. Then it got really rapey in the second half.  Anyway, so long as this doesn't fall into that trap it'll probably be better.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 20:39
|
|
|
The infodumping probably isn't so bad for those who aren't horrible poopsockers and actually need an explanation of game mechanics. MMOs can be pretty insular with lingo and mechanics that we take for granted. One thing I appreciate is that these guys aren't the typical wide-eyed ignorant newbie protagonists that have to discover everything for themselves and win their battles through pure fighting spirit. This party knows the game inside and out, even if they don't understand exactly what's happened with the world, and when they win, it's because they're good at the game.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 22:00
|
|
|
Disappointed that the thread title isn't "Log Horizon: Living In The Database" And yes, MAN WITH A MISSION wear those masks for every public appearance.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 22:19
|
|
|
Nipponophile posted:The infodumping probably isn't so bad for those who aren't horrible poopsockers and actually need an explanation of game mechanics. MMOs can be pretty insular with lingo and mechanics that we take for granted. Yeah I was thinking about it this way too. For someone who does not actively play MMO's calling a guy with a shield a "tank" would seem pretty weird and for those people this was probably not an "info dump" but actually helpful to understand the way the game works. I'm interested what the Japanese term for that is though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 23:30
|
|
|
If this show ever gets terrible, I'll just watch this for 20 minutes while looping the opening theme. Would still be better than a lot of 'trapped in a game' anime.
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2013 23:33
|
|
|
grrarg posted:The excessive infodumping is probably due to the show originally airing on NHK-Educational in the afternoon/evening. That will get a much broader audience than the typical late-night anime watched by otaku that are already familiar with MMOs. Nipponophile posted:The infodumping probably isn't so bad for those who aren't horrible poopsockers and actually need an explanation of game mechanics. MMOs can be pretty insular with lingo and mechanics that we take for granted. Demicol posted:Yeah I was thinking about it this way too. For someone who does not actively play MMO's calling a guy with a shield a "tank" would seem pretty weird and for those people this was probably not an "info dump" but actually helpful to understand the way the game works. Y'see, where this line of thought fails for me is that I don't think it's necessary even in that context. Imagine this was just your generic or garden variety fantasy show- would we be spending this much time detailing exactly how and why the wizard can throw fireballs? ... Well, alright, probably, but I don't think it'd seem quite as defensible. Really, all you need to know to appreciate the action is that the mage guy can snap his fingers and tie someone to the ground, and that is communicated perfectly adequately by having the mage guy snap his fingers and tie someone to the ground. The subtlest piece of MMO-think in the whole thing- that Naotsugu is the "tank"- I think is actually signalled pretty well just by the fact that he's the one who's always upfront taking the punishment, while the others roll around throwing out force-multipliers and ludicrous alpha. That fight against the vine monster at the beginning I thought was actually pretty good at (silently) establishing the roles of the three party members: it's the platonic ideal of an MMO fight. You could argue that they wanted to introduce the terminology so the viewers wouldn't be left behind when the characters used it, but... they don't use it. Not even Shiroe is thinking in those terms when he's strategising. And, on top of that, there's a long and proud tradition of authors just straight up inventing new slang and jargon and just throwing their audience into the deep end, unsupported. Look at A Clockwork Orange or Brunner's Stand on Zanzibar. And it works- the human brain is great at working this stuff out from contextual clues, for obvious reasons. It's hard to say, I guess, what information a perfect neophyte would find useful in this situation, and what delivery methods they'd see as intrusive or obnoxious. And the only MMO I've ever spent much time with is EVE, so my points of reference are going to be skewed. But I think a lot of the information in this episode would be more useful to someone who wanted to play the game than to appreciate the story as a story. EDIT: And I am beginning to regret posting that gif, it is incredibly distracting.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2013 04:12
|
|
|
The thing is, would someone with no experience with MMOs, or even RPGs, be able to reason out those details? You can't just assume that everyone who watches is going to know what kind of party role each character plays. To the majority of us it seems like basic, instinctual knowledge, but that's because we've known that world for a long time.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2013 05:22
|
|
|
I think if a person who has never played a video game in their life sees a scene where a person falls asleep and a guy nearby says he used a sleeping spell, they could figure out what just happened. Log Horizon on the other hand takes a brief moment to explain the exact name of the sleeping spell used, and then it gives the full description by repeating the fact that yes, this sleeping spell that the main character used is in fact a spell that puts people to sleep. It's quite redundant! Same with the spell that the main character used to bind an attacker. They showed that she was constrained and could barely move around, but again the action stopped and explained something that was shown. It's fine to have some infodumping but you gotta know when to show and when to tell. I'm not even talking about the information that is exclusive to MMOs, this is just something that can apply to fantasy anime in general. I mean I wouldn't be surprised if in this show someone would just cast a fireball and spend half a minute talking about how the fireball will do damage in the area it hits and will burn people in the area and etc etc. I think the show does have some potential, but it does feel like it's just being a literal adaption of the light novels and is suffering for it (after all, the time it takes to read spell descriptions and other such infodumps is a lot quicker than the time it takes to speak them). Srice fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Oct 13, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2013 05:40
|
|
|
As someone who didn't think SAO was the worst thing to ever exist but acknowledges it's issues, much more the idea that the second 'season' was a clusterfuck of incompetence from Original Author to Dood who delivers the tapes (a dangerous, often frustrating experience), I get where Log Horizon is going with this. And it's from the Mayou dood and lord knows that Satelight can't gently caress up worse than the idiots who animated Maoyu did. ConanThe3rd fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Oct 13, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2013 07:29
|
|
|
Just saw this thread and decided to pick this show up. I'm really liking it so far and I think you goons are overplaying the infodumping. Yes it's there, and if it stays at the same level with the same basic MMO concepts for 25 episodes it'll be bad, but I'm pretty fine with it for now. One thing I noticed, not sure if it'll be positive or not, is that Shiroe is basically a self-insert for the "hardcore MMO" audience. He's the male protagonist who made himself a bit more manly/taller, and he's done everything - every raid or special event - and has all the unique items. So he's a guy who has played the MMO a long time and accomplished a lot of things that no one who joins after can do, which is typical of hardcore MMORPG gamers. Then he finds the female player he can show his experiences to, and she clearly looks up to him and they both at least acknowledge that attraction between them is possible. This is essentially what a lot of the shut-in NEETs playing MMOs want to do; they want to be the guy who gets chicks because his character in an MMORPG is so awesome and has all the rare things. That being said I'm probably being unfair and nitpicky, but it stood out to me and no one mentioned it. Desuwa fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Oct 13, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2013 11:08
|
|
|
Desuwa posted:That being said I'm probably being unfair and nitpicky, but it stood out to me and no one mentioned it. I could certainly see how they could have played this up to an annoying degree, but I mostly found his character to be the same as anyone else who happens to be good at something. Think Natsuki from Tsuritama or Arata from Chihayafuru. He's not boastful about it, and Akatsuki's adoration is one part genuine and one part role playing. It's what I like about this show, the dork who's good at MMORPGs is just the dork who's good at MMORPGs. It's a little weird that it happens to be important to be good at MMORPGs in the story, but it hasn't gone to his head yet.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2013 15:58
|
|
|
Honestly, at least there's a basis for some sort of attraction there that fits with their established personalities, as opposed to Sword Art Online where Asuna's character changes a quarter of the way through the show just because they realized they needed her to be in love with Kirito.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2013 16:54
|
|
|
This episode felt like watching an MMO Let's Play, and we all know they are the worst Let's play's to watch... I wasn't that miffed by the infodump as some other posters here are, I mean anime was always terrible at exposition and the one here was hardly one of the worst, but I still wonder why someone who does not know the MMO terminology would be even interested in watching this in the first place. Like I said, the scenes that were not just animes being awkward around other animes were like watching someone else playing a bland MMO. I like the idea of immortality though, and the only reason I would stick with this is to see where it plans to go with it. I hope that by the end everyone will be driven completely insane by being trapped in a grindy MMO and society will devolve in a perpetual orgy of gore and murder.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2013 17:27
|
|
|
Rexides posted:I like the idea of immortality though, and the only reason I would stick with this is to see where it plans to go with it. I hope that by the end everyone will be driven completely insane by being trapped in a grindy MMO and society will devolve in a perpetual orgy of gore and murder. With that said, I think the whole idea of PvP is being downplayed too much in Log Horizon. I don't know about you guys who've played MMO's, but PvP, in my opinion, is the most fun you can have in a game. Ganking (see defintion 3.) and being ganked is a lot of fun. If I found myself in a game like Log Horizon where I knew my PvP actions would only lead to some person being rez'd in a church with perhaps some item and cash loss, I would likely be part of the ganking teams. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the world didn't turn into some major PvP teaming with PvE (player vs environment) run at a minimum -- especially if most if not all the players are already at max level. I've played PvP in Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, Dark Age of Camelot, and WoW (on a PvP only server), and it's the best. Log Horizon seems to downplay this part of gaming or make it seem despicable. It's really not. Unless, of course, you had an SAO situation. Then, it would be.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2013 18:13
|
|
|
Dan7el posted:Truth is, I think there are a lot of people enthralled by the idea of being "stuck" in an MMO -- and one that doesn't have a permadeath at that. For sure, it would get old rather quickly, but still, the general idea is somewhat enticing. Really live that fantasy life you've always dreamed about. Book series have been written about this kind of thing where people get stuck in a Dungeons and Dragons game, etc. Well there is a difference between being behind a screen doing PvP and actually, physically doing PvP. I don't think they've made it clear if getting attacked hurts or not, but it would presumably be terrifying to suddenly get stabbed or beaten to death, even though you knew full well that you wouldn't actually be dead. For the first few times at least anyways.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2013 19:21
|
|
|
I thought everyone is still pretty leery about dying because they've all seen SAO and are waiting for the other shoe to drop. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2013 19:30
|
|
|
Not to mention that we've had no indication that any of those people actually want to participate in PvP. A lot of people will roll on PvP servers to play with friends, or for better populations, not necessarily because they want to get ganked all the time. Even regardless of whether you actively do want to participate in PvP, having Xxsephirothxx the level 9000 Chaos Warrior one-shot you with his Epic Flaming Chainsaw-Axe of Destruction when you're trying to pick flowers on your level 10 Cleric is generally pretty frustrating.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2013 19:31
|
|
|
Being unable to die is functionally indistinguishable at this point from having, say, 50 extra lives that never replenish. Waking up in a cathedral after death once or twice wouldn't completely reassure me.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2013 19:43
|
|
|
At least they aren't stuck inside a game of  . I may love the game to death, but I sure wouldn't want to live it, what with all the Darkwraiths that would be running around since there wouldn't be anything else to do other than PvP. And that's not even getting into the Forest.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2013 20:50
|
|
|
Dan7el posted:With that said, I think the whole idea of PvP is being downplayed too much in Log Horizon. I don't know about you guys who've played MMO's, but PvP, in my opinion, is the most fun you can have in a game. Ganking (see defintion 3.) and being ganked is a lot of fun. If I found myself in a game like Log Horizon where I knew my PvP actions would only lead to some person being rez'd in a church with perhaps some item and cash loss, I would likely be part of the ganking teams. Not everyone enjoys PVP as much as you evidently do, though. Japanese players in particular, from what I've seen, tend to be more likely to be team-oriented PVE players (and looking at the MMOs the Japanese market has produced would seem to reinforce that impression - does FFXIV even have PVP?)
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2013 21:42
|
|
|
Desuwa posted:One thing I noticed, not sure if it'll be positive or not, is that Shiroe is basically a self-insert for the "hardcore MMO" audience. He's the male protagonist who made himself a bit more manly/taller, and he's done everything - every raid or special event - and has all the unique items. So he's a guy who has played the MMO a long time and accomplished a lot of things that no one who joins after can do, which is typical of hardcore MMORPG gamers. I see what you mean about this actually, and I hope it doesn't become full-blown, but so far he seems kind of, I dunno, ordinary? And I'm okay with that. While he has a little ninja girl servant, he seems to recognise that she just really likes roleplaying, and largely leaves her to it. On that note, I'm hella pleased that the comedic relief perverted guy keeps it just to non-targeted comments and stops when asked/kneed in the face. I wish real MMO players were so gracious.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2013 22:04
|
|
|
I assumed the reason she "role plays" so seriously and took to the organic control system like a fish to water is that she's a real ninja or something. But maybe not. If they're trapped in the game the whole time it's hard to see how that would be relevant. Sindai fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Oct 13, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2013 22:38
|
|
|
 There's a "prostitute" sub-class. And a bard is a "weapon master"?  Fair enough, I guess.Also: words for a person employed to prepare or copy documents: Scribe Copyist Scrivener Amanuensis 
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2013 13:53
|
|
|
Autonomous Monster posted:
Sounds like it's probably a Geisha subclass, which would be somewhat more varied than sex.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2013 14:15
|
|
|
Best translation might even be "consort" or "escort", that way.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2013 15:48
|
|
|
The Chef subclass is going to be so pissed that the food tastes like cardboard.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2013 15:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 7, 2024 22:28 |
|
|
Autonomous Monster posted:
It's funny that two of the subclasses this translator had so much trouble with are both used by the main characters and got perfectly fitting translations in the second episode.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2013 16:22
|
|