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Josef bugman posted:-sotto voice- That or your women folk -sotto voice- The ones you kick around are also the ones who are really mad that the Lunar religion is completely sidestepping all their stupid gender rules.
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Sep 3, 2016 19:06
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Josef bugman posted:-sotto voice- That or your women folk -sotto voice- I mean, Dara Happans, strict Rokari, Fonritians etc. are good to have as designated assholes you don't have to feel conflicted about humiliating and/or fighting. reignonyourparade posted:On the other hand at it's most strict "Dara Happans Proper" is basically a portion of the cities within traditional Dara Happa (possibly not even a majority, just a plurality) and by sheer number in practice "Dara Happan" actually means Lodrili. You must be some kind of Arkati.
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Sep 3, 2016 19:38
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I will say, Red Sun Rising did a remarkably good job at presenting Dara Happans with some depth to them.
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Sep 3, 2016 19:49
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Haystack posted:I will say, Red Sun Rising did a remarkably good job at presenting Dara Happans with some depth to them. I've been meaning to get that. Is it any good? Does it actually do the almost impossible and make them sympathetic? And yeah Fonrit is easily the best place to just go on a "free the slaves and break the masters" trip.
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Sep 4, 2016 06:42
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Josef bugman posted:I've been meaning to get that. Is it any good? Does it actually do the almost impossible and make them sympathetic? The book does a great job of fleshing out and humanizing a (non-cannonical, guide-appropriate) Darra Happan city. The normal arrogant aristocracy feels much more grounded surrounded by its proper context. Although, it doesn't hurt that the PCs are lunar agents seeking to transform the city for the glory of the Goddess.
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Sep 4, 2016 12:50
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Brainiac Five posted:I mean, Dara Happans, strict Rokari, Fonritians etc. are good to have as designated assholes you don't have to feel conflicted about humiliating and/or fighting. I feel like, personally, the guide to Glorantha goes a bit too far with making the Rokari unsympathetic, to the point of tonally tripping over itself in places. Fonritians can go get eaten by a bear though.
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Sep 4, 2016 15:30
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Fonrit is a glorious place, because everyone in there is just loving awful. The horribly mistreated Veldang, the lowest of all possible slave classes...end up being just as messed up and awful as the people who keep the enslaved.
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Sep 4, 2016 18:54
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Jenx posted:Fonrit is a glorious place, because everyone in there is just loving awful. The horribly mistreated Veldang, the lowest of all possible slave classes...end up being just as messed up and awful as the people who keep the enslaved. Only because their messiah gets into bed with the actual child of a chaos goddess. Well I say "only", but yeah, I am actually suprised that Harrek of all people is the one to bring a bit of order to that cluster gently caress. NewMars posted:I feel like, personally, the guide to Glorantha goes a bit too far with making the Rokari unsympathetic, to the point of tonally tripping over itself in places. I dunno the whole "one god, one king, one faith" thing does kind of smack of a lot of the church councils I used to read about, that and Theoblanc being an unreconstructed toss pot always seemed likely.
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Sep 4, 2016 20:58
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The civil war in Fonrit is just an absolute mess. The second Harrek leaves, after having punched everyone in the face, people just kind of look at each other for a second and immediately go for the nukes. Both the Fonritians and the Veldang insantly just go "Whelp, time to bust out that Chaos magic" and don't even bother with anything else. By the time Harrek returns the place looks worse than Snakepipe Hollow. I imagine him just standing on his ship, raising his hands in frustration and going "I left for TWO MINUTES! What did you fuckers do to the place?!"
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Sep 4, 2016 22:47
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Jenx posted:The civil war in Fonrit is just an absolute mess. The second Harrek leaves, after having punched everyone in the face, people just kind of look at each other for a second and immediately go for the nukes. Both the Fonritians and the Veldang insantly just go "Whelp, time to bust out that Chaos magic" and don't even bother with anything else. The immediate thing I think of is all the chaos swarming everywhere then suddenly there is a very faint tapping sound. Eventually everyone stops to see where the noise is coming from and it's just Harrek on the deck of his ship tapping his foot on the deck with an increasingly irate look on his face.
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Sep 4, 2016 22:59
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Josef bugman posted:The immediate thing I think of is all the chaos swarming everywhere then suddenly there is a very faint tapping sound. Eventually everyone stops to see where the noise is coming from and it's just Harrek on the deck of his ship tapping his foot on the deck with an increasingly irate look on his face. Like most Harrek stories, this ends with "And then Harrek killed everyone."
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Sep 5, 2016 01:43
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Josef bugman posted:I dunno the whole "one god, one king, one faith" thing does kind of smack of a lot of the church councils I used to read about, that and Theoblanc being an unreconstructed toss pot always seemed likely. I don't mean their universalist rhetoric and the persecution of other sects, or the assholery of Theoblanc. What I mean is stuff like Rokarism being an explicitly populist reaction against Hrestoli philosophies that lead the Middle Sea Empire to it's ruin. And yet, it had to be imposed by a class of foriegn landholders? Landholders who are described as being oppressive tyrants to their subjects, despite the fact that half the city descriptions and pretty much all the stuff on the actual Dronari have them wielding a strong amount of political power, to the point of effectively puppeting the Talar class in many of those descriptions. A lot of the stuff about Rokarism and it's relation to the common person just seems really, really backwards from both how those things work in real life and in how it's depicted in the text in different places. Edit: More to the point there's a lot of stuff that just seems like leftovers from the days when the West was forced into being fantasy Catholicism and medieval Europe that is at odds with the highly urbanized indo-greekish society that was the original conception that is being expressed now. NewMars fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Sep 5, 2016 |
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Sep 5, 2016 19:01
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NewMars posted:I don't mean their universalist rhetoric and the persecution of other sects, or the assholery of Theoblanc. I never read it as a "populist" one, I always thought it was a reaction against the God Learners expressed in the worst possible way. I'll have to give it a re-read it's been some time since I read about the West.
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Sep 5, 2016 20:11
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Caste systems are weird because the pecking order is clear, but at the same time, there's a philosophical (and logistical) acknowledgement that each caste has a specific role that's theirs and theirs alone and every role is essential. It's very different from the modern western "meritocratic" class system because the near complete lack of social mobility means that people aren't judged by their ability (or failure) to advance in society. Belong to a higher caste doesn't make you "successful" and belonging to a lower caste doesn't make you "lazy" or unworthy of respect. The Dronar/Dromali can't rule because it's not their place too, but neither can the higher castes till the fields. The higher castes have a religious and social obligation to treat drones that fulfill the duties of their caste with dignity and respect and the drones have the same obligation to obey and defer to those above them who fulfill the duties of their castes. Of course, that's the ideal, but in practice, the dynamics of power still play out. The nobles, warriors, and wizards can punish the drones for failing to meet caste obligations (or for no reason at all), but the drones can't hold their betters to the same standard, so things can get oppressive very quickly. However, what the drones do have is numbers and closer relationship to the means of production. They can't lead, but they can use that power over the land, the people, and the economy to influence who does lead by supporting those high-caste individuals who treat them with respect against those who do not. I picture this working somewhat like it did in ancient Greece or Rome (and all too frequently in modern republics) where the nobles that gain the support of "the mob" are able to seize power from those who lack it. The plebs get to choose the face of their oppressor and perhaps even renegotiate the terms of their oppression, but, if they fail, things just get worse for them and they can never wield power themselves, because they're plebs.
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Sep 6, 2016 23:55
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Duckbag posted:Caste systems are weird because the pecking order is clear, but at the same time, there's a philosophical (and logistical) acknowledgement that each caste has a specific role that's theirs and theirs alone and every role is essential. It's very different from the modern western "meritocratic" class system because the near complete lack of social mobility means that people aren't judged by their ability (or failure) to advance in society. Belong to a higher caste doesn't make you "successful" and belonging to a lower caste doesn't make you "lazy" or unworthy of respect. The Dronar/Dromali can't rule because it's not their place too, but neither can the higher castes till the fields. The higher castes have a religious and social obligation to treat drones that fulfill the duties of their caste with dignity and respect and the drones have the same obligation to obey and defer to those above them who fulfill the duties of their castes. Even the ideal is a pretty bad gig, though. I mean, you could see things end up like Tokugawa Japan where warriors overtake nobles as the preeminent class and then are supplanted by the mercantile segment of the peasant class (I mean, in some ideal world where the PCs forestall all the really big apocalypses and the Hero Wars end up with Orlanth and Sedenya becoming BFFs)... but this in turn requires a myth that centers around the power of money, and a reinterpretation of Malkionism to justify this. That is to say, the introduction of industrial and late capitalism to Glorantha. Give me Joy anytime.
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Sep 7, 2016 02:54
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The power of money idea falls flat when you realize that the samurai class basically said "we don't have any debts anymore, and if you try and collect we'll just kill you" several times. It turns out that being the only people with any weapons or soldiers tends to make you in charge no matter how much money you owe.
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Sep 7, 2016 03:13
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wiegieman posted:The power of money idea falls flat when you realize that the samurai class basically said "we don't have any debts anymore, and if you try and collect we'll just kill you" several times. It turns out that being the only people with any weapons or soldiers tends to make you in charge no matter how much money you owe. Historically, this didn't change the shift in power towards merchants. Samurai continued to become more and more dependent on chonin money to fuel their lives through the eighteenth century. Indeed, this was one of the main internal factors driving the Meiji reforms- the growing sense of the wealthy peasantry as the enemy of both samurai and common peasantry.
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Sep 7, 2016 03:28
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The thing about the Malkioni caste system is we already have an example of a "perfect" version of it - The Brithini. With those guys the caste rules are obeyed so rigidly that people are ageless because of it.
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Sep 7, 2016 07:06
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Jenx posted:The thing about the Malkioni caste system is we already have an example of a "perfect" version of it - The Brithini. With those guys the caste rules are obeyed so rigidly that people are ageless because of it. Aren't they also amoral and eventually side with the Rokari during the Hero Wars? Which then gets them (hopefully) mullered by fighting the reborn Arkat's?
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Sep 7, 2016 07:22
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Josef bugman posted:Aren't they also amoral and eventually side with the Rokari during the Hero Wars? Which then gets them (hopefully) mullered by fighting the reborn Arkat's? They are amoral, yes, because morality is irrelevant in the Malkioni system - your only concern is fulfilling your caste role to the best of your ability. Also the Brithini who live on mainland Genertela in a few enclaves might have sided with the Rokari, I am not sure. Certainly the larger portion of their population is still on Brithos, wherever that is after the disasters at the end of the second age.
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Sep 7, 2016 08:11
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Jenx posted:They are amoral, yes, because morality is irrelevant in the Malkioni system - your only concern is fulfilling your caste role to the best of your ability. Also the Brithini who live on mainland Genertela in a few enclaves might have sided with the Rokari, I am not sure. Certainly the larger portion of their population is still on Brithos, wherever that is after the disasters at the end of the second age. Oh no I meant later, as in the later hero wars when Brithos is rediscovered, the Weartagi return and they both decide to support Rokarism it may have been in one of the "hero wars" boxes in the guide.
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Sep 7, 2016 08:37
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One of the things about the Brithini and Rokarism is that Rokari tend to see themselves as throwbacks to the golden age, which the Brithini deny fervently. Interestingly, for a reactionary movement, if the Logic of going back to Malkionism's roots is followed, it can lead to some interesting conclusions. The Brithini you see, live in republics: their rulers are elected by the citizens of all castes, but only from members of the Talar caste, this being based upon the Law of the First City. This is Known, as the Great Republic was the perfect and most logical state. What this means is that sufficiently orthodox Rokari could very well make the logical leap that Talar dynasticism is an affront to the Law. Of course, this would need certain conditions to exist in: a sufficiently reactionary and fanatical Zzabrui class, a Talar class that was far too large with too few holdings to go around and very strong urban guilds might be enough. But they aren't. King Guilmarme is strong and all of these are united against external enemies, with conquests for those Talari third and fourth children who would otherwise get nothing, many heretics for the Zzaburi and even trade wars and growth for the guilds. One thing that could really hurt this is the failures and successes that the guide implicates for them. King Guilmarne's conquest of Safelster failing due to the rise of the true Arkat, for one, leaving many Talari scions promised land and power with nothing, Combine this with Theoblanc's demonic massacre of his theological enemies leaving only those within Rokari doctrine untouched, with few external enemies within Seshenla to focus upon... and then you add in everything that effects the dronari. Looking at it that way, you could have an even more troubled Seshnela.
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Sep 7, 2016 21:19
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So does Brithini role-based immortality have the same roots as Mostali immortality? The way they're described is very similar.
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Sep 7, 2016 22:21
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Bendigeidfran posted:So does Brithini role-based immortality have the same roots as Mostali immortality? The way they're described is very similar. They're both the result of channeling the power of a Mythic ideal. In a way, it's the Brithini version of theistic magic, although they'd never call it that.
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Sep 7, 2016 22:22
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wiegieman posted:They're both the result of channeling the power of a Mythic ideal. In a way, it's the Brithini version of theistic magic, although they'd never call it that. Even thinking about it hard enough is probably enough to cause you to get kicked out of Brithos. BTW speaking of the eternal isle, what caste was Arkat (the original one) from again?
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Sep 8, 2016 20:43
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Josef bugman posted:Even thinking about it hard enough is probably enough to cause you to get kicked out of Brithos. Horali, of course. I mean, he had a mythic unbreakable sword and he was sent to the mainland to fight. Boy that that backfire on so many people.
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Sep 8, 2016 21:34
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Jenx posted:Horali, of course. I mean, he had a mythic unbreakable sword and he was sent to the mainland to fight. Boy that that backfire on so many people. Oh yeah, doy, I forget that the nobility aren't actually allowed to fight. By the by, did Arkat actually use chaos at any point? Because despite him being a despoiler, ravanger and conqueror I didn't find much to suggest he ever called upon chaos even after he illuminated himself.
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Sep 8, 2016 21:38
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Josef bugman posted:Oh yeah, doy, I forget that the nobility aren't actually allowed to fight. Talari can fight. I mean, even the strict brithini ones can. Brithini ones just can't use conventional weaponry, so some of them modify the symbols of their office to make them weapons instead (throwing crowns, clubbing staves, ect).
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Sep 8, 2016 22:13
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So, here's a question. Given that the Court of Silence was able to bring Arkat back to life, does that imply the Brithini are wrong about the nonexistence of an afterlife? For that matter, given that Ralzakark was brought back by the God Learners, and seemingly didn't dissolve into oblivion like Chaos creatures do, does Illumination unchain you from the normal fate you would have after death?
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Sep 9, 2016 00:22
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The underworld is a place you can go to and that powerful Heroes regularly fight their way out of after they get killed. It sounds like an afterlife to me.
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Sep 9, 2016 00:28
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wiegieman posted:The underworld is a place you can go to and that powerful Heroes regularly fight their way out of after they get killed. It sounds like an afterlife to me. Yeah, but the Brithini are firmly convinced that they, at least don't get an afterlife. Are they quite simply wrong, or is something more complex going on here?
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Sep 9, 2016 00:33
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Brainiac Five posted:Yeah, but the Brithini are firmly convinced that they, at least don't get an afterlife. Are they quite simply wrong, or is something more complex going on here? It's something quite complex. They don't regard reincarnation as a thing, given how it destroys personal identity and this is true of most of the stricter/more primeval branches of Malkionism, including Rokari. Malkionism proper has Solace, reunion with the invisible god. Nothing comes back from Solace. You can't resurrect them like Arkat and Razalrak were and will be. This is why Malkion will never return in any form, including reincarnated prophet. The whole court of silence thing is from the logical perspective of the world, just the experiences of the soul as it dissolves into it's primal constituents. In this viewpoint, Resurrection is just the imposition of one's will upon the world, like all proper magic, reversing the process. Even the lowliest Dronar will be resurrected if at all possible, among the Brithini. It's worth noting that no one who isn't a hero or demigod stays in the otherworld forever, everyone else reincarnates into something, meaning that the malkioni see dwelling within the realm of your god as just an extended form of slavery before final dissolution. NewMars fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Sep 9, 2016 |
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Sep 9, 2016 02:41
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That. and also every Brithini would argue that Arkat was no longer a Brithini by the time he died the first time, what with him becoming a Hrestoli Man-of-All and all that.
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Sep 9, 2016 06:29
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Jenx posted:That. and also every Brithini would argue that Arkat was no longer a Brithini by the time he died the first time, what with him becoming a Hrestoli Man-of-All and all that. That's kind of interesting. I wonder if that means there is an afterlife for all Brithini after they leave the island/ their caste restrictions.
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Sep 9, 2016 07:14
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Josef bugman posted:That's kind of interesting. I wonder if that means there is an afterlife for all Brithini after they leave the island/ their caste restrictions. The Brithini might say so, although they would probably say that the former Brithini is no longer able to reach Solace and is now trapped in the illusion of existence. Or whatever.
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Sep 9, 2016 07:30
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Josef bugman posted:That's kind of interesting. I wonder if that means there is an afterlife for all Brithini after they leave the island/ their caste restrictions. wiegieman posted:The Brithini might say so, although they would probably say that the former Brithini is no longer able to reach Solace and is now trapped in the illusion of existence. Or whatever. The Brithini do not believe in Solace. Malkion is the one who gave us Solace. Frankly they think that and all this stuff about existence being an illusion to be illogical pagan nonsense. Also, there is of course an afterlife for them. It's the same as everyone's, even the Brithini who don't leave: They are judged in the underworld and either are are trapped in the realm of whatever power they have unwisely enslaved themselves to in life, or have their soul dispersed into it's component parts as it's energy is returned to the world. The former merely being a prolonged, metaphorical form of the latter. Neither happened to Arkat, by the way, he underwent Apotheosis, becoming a power with a permanent presence in the Otherside.. This is arguably worse to many orthodox Malkioni sensibilities, as it means becoming a thing that degrades itself by spiritual enslavement of it's unwitting followers, or is used by proper people to do their will.
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Sep 9, 2016 10:49
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How many people have apotheiothiesd in Glorantha? And how many of those were none illuminates? The only one I can think of who wasn't would probably be Sartar himself.
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Sep 9, 2016 11:07
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Cragspider is listed as having both apotheosized and explicitly not having done and I don't -think- she's an illuminate? But her poo poo's all wrapped up in Arachne Solara so is super-weird anyway.
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Sep 9, 2016 12:00
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I think she willingly limited her power to avoid being shackled by the cosmic compromise by becoming a deity, so it's kind of a weird case.
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Sep 9, 2016 12:02
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King Heort was most definitely not an Illuminate and he Apothesized. There are literally hundreds of other Heroes who have done the same. Edit: I suppose I should make this clear: Apothesizing while you are alive is extremely rare, being deified as a Hero after your death is not. The Latter is what happened to Arkat, by the way. NewMars fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Sep 9, 2016 |
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Sep 9, 2016 12:37
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