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Say what you will about the other dungeons, but this one's aesthetic theme is so hit-and-miss. It's crazy how, despite this, the boss of this incredibly tedious dungeon is the best boss of the game, TURBOGOAT. Seriously, thank goodness they let you (mechanics spoiler, forgot if it was mentioned) skip straight to the boss room in future loops; otherwise I'd have never 100%'d this game. (Still my favorite Zelda game.) E: Update bottom of last page.
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Dec 21, 2013 19:17
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I'm pretty sure those little round enemies are Bohs - the dark ones from the Woodfall Temple are just Bohs, and the white ones are White Bohs, probably. They wouldn't have called them Snow Bohs. Goron Link is the only form that can't grab ledges - the form we haven't gotten yet moves pretty much exactly the way human Link does with respect to jumps and ledges, while Deku Link can grab ledges and pull himself up, but there are very few ledges that he can jump up to. I think he'll grab one if you fall from or past it, though. I use Deku Link to get that hidden fairy in the wall of the main shaft, generally - once you've reached that flower at the top, you can safely float down to any point in the room. There are probably faster ways to get to most places, but if you missed anything on your way to the top, you can return to wherever you want to go, provided you have the patience to wait that long. Or you can just jump if you're careful. If you want to make the Goht fight a little bit easier, the key is that he'll trip if you hit him while in the air from jumping off one of those little ramps with the magic jars on top. If you can time your attacks well, you can make him stumble repeatedly. If you stop rolling (like you will if his counterattack hits you), you can even just punch him while he's down, but spinning is probably the way that does the most damage.
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Dec 21, 2013 19:52
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Thorn's weakness finally comes out! For far too long has he played these games with total skill, but at last, a humanizing factor! Geometry! I don't mean to be an rear end, but that first "Yes, if I launch off this ramp at a 30 degree angle to the left, I'll CLEARLY go straight!" was your fault, buddy! And actually, you can use the torches to light arrows on fire and melt that ice block early in, I've done it myself and Maxwell Adams did it in ye olden 2007 LP of this game. And that was the guy who was trapped in a room in the Fire Temple for like 20 minutes because he refused to ever learn how to Z-target! Jokes aside, he did make an inadvertent good point about Snowhead. Once you have the Fire Arrows, you can undergo the chain of events leading to area 3 and get a recurring Zelda item that makes Snowhead a LOT easier. Getting the stray fairies becomes a hell of a lot simpler, mobility goes up quite a lot due to the layout, and so on. While the obvious response to that is "You shouldn't have to detour severely to make something easier", it's worth remembering that that's a recurring hallmark of this game. There are plenty of instances where doing a sidequest of some kind makes another action easier, the most prominent one being a certain obscure usage of the Lens of Truth in the leadup to area 4 that is invaluable in area 3. Which everyone who played this game probably heard from elsewhere or looked up, because no way in hell are you going to find it otherwise.
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Dec 21, 2013 22:07
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Goht is probably my favorite boss on the N64, tied with the boss of Sector X. Before I got it for the Wii, I would pop in my copy of Majora's Mask (I had the gold hologram cartidge, too), and just go and play that boss because he's a lot of fun.
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Dec 21, 2013 23:19
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"gently caress this dungeon, gently caress everything, I hate everything- gently caress yeah I love this boss." Is pretty much the video and snowhead temple as a whole. This game may be grim, but I got to admit it worked for me. Made me care about the bomber's notebook and helping people out because oh god these poor people are going to die, I should at least make their last moments happy. 
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Dec 22, 2013 00:02
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Forget Zelda bosses, I think Goht may be among my favorite bosses in any game ever. I mean, what other game lets you chase around a mechanical goat that shoots lightning bolts and shits loving bombs, while you get to be a spikey ball of death?! I know I can't think of many!
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Dec 22, 2013 01:54
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This was mentioned briefly during the boss fight, but here is the alternate way to defeat the boss in speed run form. Video is timestamped at the boss. Spoiler alert if you watch beyond this fight as this is a world record speed run, and includes other bosses and locations. If the time stamp fails for whatever reason, skip to 1:11:37. E: also noticed that the bosses names are listed on his splits, so heads up if you don't want to know that sort of thing. Velocity Raptor fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Dec 22, 2013 |
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Dec 22, 2013 02:39
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Epee Em posted:Well, it came from his eyes. Woah, easy on the spoilers there...
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Dec 22, 2013 02:43
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Velocity Raptor posted:This was mentioned briefly during the boss fight, but here is the alternate way to defeat the boss in speed run form. Video is timestamped at the boss. Why is he using the japanese version? Does it rely on some bug thats only present in the Japanese version or is he one of those all hail glorious nippon types?
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Dec 22, 2013 03:22
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insanityv2 posted:Why is he using the japanese version? Does it rely on some bug thats only present in the Japanese version or is he one of those all hail glorious nippon types? In most speed runs, the Japanese versions are used because there is less text that needs to be displayed on screen, so the games can be completed faster. Some games, such as Wind Waker, the Japanese text can shave literal minutes off a game time over the English version. Velocity Raptor fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Dec 22, 2013 |
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Dec 22, 2013 03:28
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I never realised or even considered that Miyamoto might not have had a great influence on this game, but it's rather obvious to me now considering how bleak and horrifying this game can be. I mean, Zelda's always been a very idealistic adventure series, and while it does have some dark parts, it's still overall a rather cheer-ridden game of hope and outcomes of resolution as a hero. Here however, this game has the most overbearing theme of it as darkness and despair underneath the shadow of the apocalypse. That's definitely not Miyamoto's style now that I think about it. Also, I'm super glad to see the fire arrows back again because it has the most coolest loving noise you ever get when choosing a weapon. How often is it in games that you hear such a specific item of powering up, that makes you feel REAL good when selecting it? You can just feel the fire in your hands already when you pick that. 
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Dec 22, 2013 04:18
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 I'm so sorry. At any rate, that really is total BS how you can't fire through the torch to destroy the ice barriers. Why did they even put the torches there if they were just going to cause confusion and frustration like that? I just want to put it down to poor design, but I can't help thinking that maybe I'm missing something.
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Dec 22, 2013 04:29
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CrazySalamander posted:
It has been years since I played it however, so I could be wrong.
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Dec 22, 2013 04:38
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Nihilarian posted:I'm pretty sure he's wrong about not being able to do so. I remember melting the ice with an arrow fired through the torch. As someone who did this in an LP in this very subforum, yeah you can totally fire a regular arrow through a torch and it'll count as a fire arrow.
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Dec 22, 2013 05:22
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Mico posted:As someone who did this in an LP in this very subforum, yeah you can totally fire a regular arrow through a torch and it'll count as a fire arrow. Indeed, in fact that's what the very torch that Thorn shot through to hit the ice is for. I have no idea why it didn't work though since it showed a flaming arrow sticking out of the ice. Also, glad to see I'm not the only guy who lent out his Majora's Mask guide only to have it shreddeed. Only lent it out to one friend, but her dog did a number on it before her family could stop it.
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Dec 22, 2013 06:33
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Alkydere posted:Indeed, in fact that's what the very torch that Thorn shot through to hit the ice is for. I have no idea why it didn't work though since it showed a flaming arrow sticking out of the ice. Hit-boxes in old nintendo games are weird.
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Dec 22, 2013 06:44
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It seems like such a waste that mid-bosses exist exist in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. What's the point of having a tougher than normal enemy when nearly all enemies do a quarter heart worth of damage. Wizzrobe is a pretty bad offender in this category.
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Dec 22, 2013 15:45
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X_countryguy posted:It seems like such a waste that mid-bosses exist exist in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. What's the point of having a tougher than normal enemy when nearly all enemies do a quarter heart worth of damage. Wizzrobe is a pretty bad offender in this category. I don't know, he's a pretty magical enemy to fight.
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Dec 22, 2013 15:47
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It also brings up an interesting point of debate, which I will happily describe my views of to "chum the waters" a bit and get this poor thread some more conversational activity. 3 out of 4 of Majora's Mask's dungeons are brutal compared to the Zelda norm. Woodfall is easy and straightforward. The last room before the boss is relatively complex for a first "real" dungeon. Considering the Deku Tree is 5 minutes (or less, especially if not counting cutscenes) into OoT, I wouldn't call it a fair parallel, so compare it to Dodongo's Cavern instead. I'd say they're about equal in complexity and difficulty, though Woodfall is significantly less sprawling. Snowhead you just saw, involving lots of floor-crossing puzzles, some tricky platforming in a series where jumping as a mechanic is usually restricted to "off something", you have ice physics in patches, and the necessity to find new routes up and down the dungeon as you progress, sometimes having to throw yourself off a higher floor to get to an otherwise unreachable spot on a lower one. That sounds minor, but it's not what most people would expect to be doing in the second dungeon of the game. On top of that, getting the Stray Fairies requires substantial use of the Lens of Truth, though thankfully the places you need to do so are drat obvious. Of especial note is the "throw yourself off the central pillar to get into a hidden side alcove" Stray Fairy, I literally did not know that was you got that thing until this video. I thought you had to backtrack with a later item and never bothered to do so. Now I get into the dungeons we haven't seen yet, so I'll not spoil the circumstances or central gimmicks, but will loosely describe how they functionally play. In the interest of not revealing even the basics to those who would prefer not to read such, however, I'll spoiler out the more direct things I describe. No bosses will be described at all. Dungeon 3 is, contrary to what your first impression might be, not a logic puzzle. There's a lot of switches involved, but the goal is to (misleading space filler) turn them all on (misleading space filler), not turn (filler) all the correct ones on. And activating one switch often contributes to the path to the next switch (mindfuck, ho!). Problem is, the dungeon's nonlinear as hell and involves a lot of circling one-way paths, being arranged like a bunch of stacked circular tunnels with side rooms jutting off. Dungeon 3 basically plays like a 3D Metroidvania, in which you wander around in relative confusion to explore the quite numerous available regions to explore, and successfully completing a task in one room makes another room (which you may not realize, as while the dungeon's decor will direct you, that can be missed) possible to be cleared, and so on. Thank god the game forks over the map almost immediately, this would be Silent Hill 1 Nowhere levels of nonsensical without it! Dungeon 4 is universally regarded as one of the most difficult Zelda dungeons period, not counting anything Master Quest vomited forth. It involves a VERY tedium-via-backtracking-central mechanic that sadly hits anyone trying to get all the Stray Fairies hardest, which is a shame because the reward is drat cool. On top of that, pits are all over the place, the enemies are genuinely tough in many places, the dungeon item chugs magic like a college freshman, and basically every room has either a tricky puzzle, a puzzle that's simple in concept but hard to pull off, or involves 5 minutes of tedium. Consider it also a "Mask Final Exam", because you'll be pulling out every single transformation mask often. The late sections of the dungeon are also extremely tricky to navigate, and contain probably the toughest Zelda platforming I'm aware of. As a whole, significantly harder than most of what OoT (barring the infamous Water Temple, in my opinion to a lesser extent the Forest Temple) threw at you. Or Wind Waker. Or Twilight Princess. There are fewer dungeons, to be sure, but they'll take a lot more effort than a Zelda dungeon usually does. Whether they're fun or not is the big question here. Myself? I find them fun AND frustrating, because I enjoy a challenge far more than a breeze, but getting stuck on a temple for an extensive period of time is a brain-boiler. The satisfaction of having overcome something tough is worth it. I forget if Thorn explained this back in Woodfall, but if you somehow run out of the effectively-6-days of time you get (and of course play the Song of Time), which translates to about 3 hours, all the small keys reset, though you keep the map, compass, boss key, and dungeon item. The game's dungeons are specifically designed so that you can use the latter to get back to where you were in the dungeon pretty quickly. If you want, actually, you can sequence break some of the dungeons by getting the dungeon item, then resetting the keys and using that item to get to the keys in the wrong order so you can use them later in the dungeon and skip rooms. But doing that generally takes more effort and time than just doing the dungeon normally, so it's only worth doing so if a puzzle completely stumps you.
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Dec 22, 2013 16:23
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There might also be more discussion if the OP actually posted for other than the next video. 
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Dec 22, 2013 16:31
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Epee Em posted:It also brings up an interesting point of debate, which I will happily describe my views of to "chum the waters" a bit and get this poor thread some more conversational activity.
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Dec 22, 2013 21:03
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Pyrovile posted:Conversely though, I think Odolwa is way too hard for a first Zelda boss. I don't know if Thorn cheesed the boss or that was just the way you are meant to fight him that I never worked out, but that boss caused me no end of trouble and I could never work out how to dodge the bug attack that he didn't get a chance to use in the LP. You can throw a bomb, and the moths will swarm around the fuse and get killed in the explosion. But yeah, that attack is brutal if you don't know how to deal with it.
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Dec 22, 2013 21:53
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Velocity Raptor posted:You can throw a bomb, and the moths will swarm around the fuse and get killed in the explosion. But yeah, that attack is brutal if you don't know how to deal with it. You can also just wait in the flower forever I think? Pop up when he stands over you to stun him, switch masks and cut his tendons?
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Dec 22, 2013 22:26
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I wish I had something to contribute to all the discussion going on but the last time I actually played MM was way back when it was first actually released. Even when you guys are so wrong about things, I'm still enjoying the LP a lot. In fact, have some quasi-fanart!  Poor little corner Stray Fairy.
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Dec 22, 2013 22:28
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X_countryguy posted:It seems like such a waste that mid-bosses exist exist in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. What's the point of having a tougher than normal enemy when nearly all enemies do a quarter heart worth of damage. Wizzrobe is a pretty bad offender in this category. It's not really a matter of design as it was an underestimation of the needed difficulty curve. In Ocarina of Time, the midbosses really only began to pick up in difficulty near the very end of the game, such as the Iron Knuckle in the Spirit Temple, which lopped off about four hearts if I remember right. That would've indeed been threatening, but it came way too late in the game to be worrisome. The midbosses of Woodfall seemed so weak, yeah, but most players by that point haven't yet completed their fourth heart container. If they did more damage than a quarter or a half then the game would be too difficult. Snowhead's midboss is more like the odd middle child, really. Wizzrobe can't be much harder than the Woodfall bosses, but isn't quite at the difficulty level of the rest of the game. This is a problem that really clears up by the time we hit the ocean.
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Dec 22, 2013 23:02
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Drakenel posted:There might also be more discussion if the OP actually posted for other than the next video. Yeah 'cause that hasn't done gently caress-all for the conversation in every thread I've done.
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Dec 23, 2013 02:24
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People posted:Temple difficulty discussion I think what always happens to me is that I remember how much I love the aesthetics of each dungeon, but I forget how much of a bitch actually playing through them is, until I start a new game. Snowhead has never really been a problem for me, though, I guess because I've been lucky enough to have never fallen off the bridge/ramps in the middle or the little slippery ramps on the sides. So what makes this LP so nice, is that I get all the experience of looking around at stuff without actually having to do the hard parts. Keep up the good work!
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Dec 23, 2013 07:56
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ThornBrain posted:Yeah 'cause that hasn't done gently caress-all for the conversation in every thread I've done. I'm really not sure why these threads don't see much discussion, given the good dynamic you three have going and general high quality of production. It strikes me as really strange, honestly. It's been roughly forever since I played Majora's Mask myself, but I have fond memories of it. I seem to remember doing pretty much everything possible before the fourth dungeon (except fairy collection), then getting distracted by something else.  Pretty sure I only ever saw my brother beat this one.Windwaker, on the other hand... I'm looking forward to hearing some reactions. 
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Dec 23, 2013 08:18
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Yapping Eevee posted:Windwaker, on the other hand... I'm looking forward to hearing some reactions. It's probably just some kind of Stockholm Syndrome, but I never really minded the two major gripes everyone always has about that game.
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Dec 23, 2013 08:25
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morallyobjected posted:It's probably just some kind of Stockholm Syndrome, but I never really minded the two major gripes everyone always has about that game. What about the other six? 
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Dec 23, 2013 09:12
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Epee Em posted:It also brings up an interesting point of debate, which I will happily describe my views of to "chum the waters" a bit and get this poor thread some more conversational activity. I owned, but never beat, Majoras Mask. The reason is that 4th dungeon. I never beat it, but I sure did try. I really wanted to, but the frustration got to me. Maybe now that I'm older I can power through it all again. Or I might just get annoyed at trying to wrangle the camera straight again.
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Dec 23, 2013 10:05
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Yapping Eevee posted:I'm really not sure why these threads don't see much discussion, given the good dynamic you three have going and general high quality of production. It strikes me as really strange, honestly. I've seen MM, I've played MM, it's a good game. I still find it very unusual that you don't have to save Zelda in a Legend of Zelda game, makes the game feel different. I enjoy the LP, the commentary often makes me laugh. Most stuff about the game has been discussed in the videos already, I guess. I don't feel the need to add much here. Maybe you should do a worse job at LP'ing so we have stuff to bitch about?  (Don't.)
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Dec 23, 2013 10:19
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ThornBrain posted:Yeah 'cause that hasn't done gently caress-all for the conversation in every thread I've done. Just a friendly rib, man. Easy there. I was singing your praises further up the page. ...This is giving me the weirdest sense of Deja Vu though.
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Dec 23, 2013 11:41
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Drakenel posted:Just a friendly rib, man. Easy there. I was singing your praises further up the page. I had to go lie down for a bit.
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Dec 23, 2013 17:41
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That actually happens to me a lot, Nihilarian. It's quite surreal. You know, I think I only ever beat Majora's Mask ...twice, maybe, and only one of those was with 100%. I guess it's one of those games I just don't want to play very often, but I adore none the less.
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Dec 23, 2013 18:58
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Yapping Eevee posted:I'm really not sure why these threads don't see much discussion, given the good dynamic you three have going and general high quality of production. It strikes me as really strange, honestly. It's hard to make good posts about a zelda game. Everyone is grinding their teeth not to  out over everything, since listing off your experiences with the game/series isn't really discussion. Since the videos are all recorded and this is a 100% run anyway, there isn't much anyone can say that they should do for future videos. Maybe have a bonus video with all failed attempts at mini games in it?
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Dec 27, 2013 16:44
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 So, what's been happening since last week: I finished and released a new album I've been working on these last several months, I got and beat A Link Between Worlds to great satisfaction, and I held a game of Vindictive Zelda Text on Twitter with interesting results. My personal favourite: "You found the Boomerang! It'll actually come back to you unlike the people you talk to." - DeathspeakSA All of our LPs (sans Wind Waker) have videos lined up to be commentated, so if we can find the time to get together, there should be more activity from us in 2014. E: I just now discovered a random audio fuckup. And of course I deleted the source files before I noticed it. gently caress it. Deal with it. ThornBrain fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Dec 28, 2013 |
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Dec 28, 2013 19:54
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I swear, only you guys can make collection videos the funniest parts of an LP. Travis: "Oh god no!" Haven't laughed that hard since Agent Under Fire.
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Dec 28, 2013 22:37
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Epee Em posted:Haven't laughed that hard since Agent Under Fire. "All my friends are dead! Quick, Circle Strafe!" There's a reason I look forward to new Strawhat NO! LPs, but I can never eloquently explain why they're so funny to my friends.
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Dec 28, 2013 22:55
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Awww man I would have loved to play the VindictiveZeldaText game. NO ONE MENTIONS THE BUG NET, BLASPHEMY! ...well it IS too awesome to even compare with an insult so I'm gonna let that slide. That sweet gold dust though, I didn't know you could get multiples of it and sell at the curio shop, that's pretty cool!
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Dec 29, 2013 00:46
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