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veekie posted:English longbows would be the upper end of muscle powered ranged then? How about rate of fire? Early firearms took a while between shots, but how did that compare rate wise between musketman, crossbowman and archer? When you ask about archers, the answer isn't simple. Eastern techniques that use a thumbring will enable you to hold 3 arrows in your locking hand, so you're able to shoot at least those 3 without great delay. You can't do that if you use the mediterran lock, so you either draw from the quiver or plant the arrows into the ground before shooting (holding arrows in the bowhand is another option, but only with weak bows). I have tried the turkish method and it's quite possible to get quite fast with a little training. So, to give you some number, I have a book on eastern style archery here that mentions archer examinations where you're required to shoot 3 arrows within 12 seconds and hit the target at a given distance. There are videos of some guy on youtube that shoots at a much higher rate, but I wouldn't give much significance to such demonstrations. You can see that he uses a fairly light bow, nothing comparable to the drawweigth of a real warbow, which will range between 100-140# (and sometimes above that). Something like this replica of a crimean tartar hornbow: http://atarn.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2486&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 Training men to use these beasts with great skill takes many many years. Massively built guys might be able to pull such a bow, but there's a huge difference between somebody who is just strong enough and a real shooter, who can draw and hold without swaying and is able to hit a moving target and bodypart of your choice with ease. Yea, and shooting lots of arrows in a short period of time is also great. As far as I know we have no goons shooting warbows over at the archer thread, but I'd love to ask the guys who shoot warbows how fast they can actually go.
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Nov 14, 2013 21:40
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Has anyone found/bothered looking for the wreck of the Fuso? I've always wondered if that split in two and both halves stayed afloat story was true or not. Anthony Tully's Battle of Surigao Strait debunked that. It's basically a misconception based on bad interpretation that lasted forever because there were literally only 10 Fuso survivors and none of them were listened to much in the west.
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Nov 14, 2013 21:44
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InspectorBloor posted:So, to give you some number, I have a book on eastern style archery here that mentions archer examinations where you're required to shoot 3 arrows within 12 seconds and hit the target at a given distance. There are videos of some guy on youtube that shoots at a much higher rate, but I wouldn't give much significance to such demonstrations. You can see that he uses a fairly light bow, nothing comparable to the drawweigth of a real warbow, which will range between 100-140# (and sometimes above that). I'd point out that in a battle situation, shooting accurately is generally less important than getting a whole bunch of arrows into a rough area at a given period of time.
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Nov 14, 2013 21:59
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a travelling HEGEL posted:(you may not know this, Obdicut, but in early modern usage "Hure" need not mean prostitute, but only "loose woman," which is what city-dwelling authorities would call military women whether or not they were married to their men--a woman could be completely chaste, but if she traveled with an army she was automatically a "slut" to outsiders) It's pretty funny how this never actually changed.
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Nov 14, 2013 22:05
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This is a question with no right answer, but I'd like to know: What are some of your favorite military-related songs? Folk songs or marching songs, it doesn't matter. What HEGEL posted up-thread is a great example. Here are some examples that I rather enjoy: A song about the nurses of Imperial Russia from the First World War: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtCBzQK37HU A ballad about the Monitor and the Merrimack. The last line in particular is great. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwA5bIcaNks A Polish religious song sung at the Battle of Tannenburg in 1410 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgtTapXGWXA brozozo posted:How is Keegan deficient in regards to WWI? I honestly don't remember, it's been a few years since I had that chat. I think it was something to do with his understandings of the political motivations for war, but my memory is very hazy. Sorry!
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Nov 14, 2013 22:10
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a travelling HEGEL posted:Yup. Like civilians did at the same time, early modern soldiers worked in household economies, where everyone who's old enough contributes to the economic activity of the family. So, in the case of the soldier and his life partner (you may not know this, Obdicut, but in early modern usage "Hure" need not mean prostitute, but only "loose woman," which is what city-dwelling authorities would call military women whether or not they were married to their men--a woman could be completely chaste, but if she traveled with an army she was automatically a "slut" to outsiders), he'd do the fighting and she would do basically everything else. You mean "Dirne" or "Metze"? There's also a bunch of other early modern words that denote unmarried "loose" women that slipped my mind. Help me out. Fangz posted:I'd point out that in a battle situation, shooting accurately is generally less important than getting a whole bunch of arrows into a rough area at a given period of time. Yes and no, within 50m it's very well possible to target individual body parts. Arrows to the face are always good.
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Nov 14, 2013 22:19
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I am a fan of the Soviet March of the Artillerymen.
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Nov 14, 2013 22:20
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Fragrag posted:It's pretty funny how this never actually changed. InspectorBloor posted:You mean "Dirne" or "Metze"? There's also a bunch of other early modern words that denote unmarried "loose" women that slipped my mind. Help me out. Rodrigo Diaz posted:What are some of your favorite military-related songs? Folk songs or marching songs, it doesn't matter. Sung by Wallenstein's troops (the image is incorrect--nobody would have worn that in the 1600s) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORNOFGZgi2w This one's about the Italian Wars. Of note is the bad Italian.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75oM6gTVRYM So's this, about the Battle of Pavia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0szqSd0osoE Joerg von Frundsburg, incidentally, was beloved of his men. This contains the lovely little verse: "All the little flowers stood red / Eeesh--death falls like snow." This one is about the siege of Berg Op Zoom, which the people singing (who work for the Emperor of Spain) are about to lose, even though they don't know it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5Z6Aez6T3c I like two of the verses in here, which are: We swallow dust when we walk and our purses hang empty The Emperor swallows all of Flanders Cheers, man.  He thinks about devouring lands, he wants to rule the world I've got a girl at home who would cry if I died This is the oldest song in here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spxDh01wvvg I paraphrase: "A Landsknecht came over the field. He had no purse nor money. He came to a pub, and the woman who owned it looked out the window. I have no money, he said. We can arrange something, she said." The refrain is a list of plants with aphrodisiac qualities.  I wanted to post all of this quickly so I didn't write the translations down. If you want me to translate an individual song though, I will. Edit: If you don't speak German, don't click around the related links at random. A bunch of them are Nazi things. They love these songs. 
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Nov 14, 2013 |
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Nov 14, 2013 22:35
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:This is a question with no right answer, but I'd like to know: What are some of your favorite military-related songs? Folk songs or marching songs, it doesn't matter. What HEGEL posted up-thread is a great example. According to a legend, when the Fifth Bohemian crusade moved against the Hussites at Domažlice, it was the sound of this hymn sung by the Hussite column that broke the crusaders' morale and sent them fleeing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiYzysQKqGI
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Nov 14, 2013 22:44
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InspectorBloor posted:Yes and no, within 50m it's very well possible to target individual body parts. Arrows to the face are always good. A large number of guys with swords within 50m (typically charging at me) is very loving scary, and I would not be thinking about shooting him (let alone aiming at individual body parts), but either running the hell away or at least drawing my own melee weapon. Then again I suppose if there's something to stop them getting to me, it'd be different. Fangz fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Nov 14, 2013 |
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Nov 14, 2013 22:50
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5 pages already? You loveable spergs, What have you been doing?Rodrigo Diaz posted:This is a question with no right answer, but I'd like to know: What are some of your favorite military-related songs? Ensign Expendable posted:I am a fan of the Soviet March of the Artillerymen. I very much enjoy La Victoire est a Nous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75RUPdkyqp0 I also personally like A las Barricadas, from the Spanish civil war, which specifically refers to the CNT-FAI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op3w3wMqdwg
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Nov 14, 2013 22:52
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These are later, from the British Isles. Possibly the nicest date rape song ever? I feel weird saying that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAYW5dwZJRA Guy is rear end in a top hat to chick, buggers off to war, the end https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z3A5Tgy47M This doesn't seem military-related, but the last verse reveals that it was sung during Queen Anne's War https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN9Y3ChP1go
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Nov 14, 2013 22:53
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Ca ira and the Carmagnole are pretty punk rock. 
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Nov 14, 2013 22:53
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I favour The Dark Night. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Is_the_Night_%28Soviet_song%29 http://lyricstranslate.com/en/dark-night-dark-night.html-0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx0FYrm55Cg The Sacred War is also pretty good, though it cannot be more different. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sacred_War http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABby6nGIeHM (EDIT: Added a bunch of wikipedia and lyrics links) Fangz fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Nov 14, 2013 |
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Nov 14, 2013 22:55
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Fangz posted:The Sacred War is also pretty good, though it cannot be more different.
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Nov 14, 2013 23:00
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a travelling HEGEL posted:This one is about the siege of Berg Op Zoom, which the people singing (who work for the Emperor of Spain) are about to lose, even though they don't know it. That'd be Bergen op Zoom. Two types of soil accumulate and it's mountainous by Dutch standards
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Nov 14, 2013 23:05
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Koesj posted:That'd be Bergen op Zoom. Two types of soil accumulate and it's mountainous by Dutch standards
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Nov 14, 2013 23:06
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Everyone but utter Nazi types love Sacred War. For the Russian Civil War, I quite like White Army Black Baron: http://youtu.be/zZqVOFSYRWI And the classic The Rambling Soldier: http://youtu.be/vPEzGeBcJuE EDIT: Oh, and the Dubliners cover of Gentleman soldier. I know the Pogues one is catchier but I can't stand comedy falsetto. http://youtu.be/e34fG1DJQnI SeanBeansShako fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Nov 14, 2013 |
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Nov 14, 2013 23:08
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Oh yeah there's also this catchy soviet marching tune https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iJRwSTJVuQ And of course the best Corries version of Killiecrankie  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygIuVZOQJlc
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Nov 14, 2013 23:19
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a travelling HEGEL posted:Dude, when you guys make it up to sea level it's mountainous. Well we only crawled out of it some 1000-odd years ago so it's best to stick with what you're used to. Flooding polders and other reclamations are a great way to quickly establish a permanent defensive line though, so there's something to be said for being part-merman. Until they decided to drop Fallschirmjäger on your capital of course, and I'm glad the world didn't get to see Soviet engineering efforts take on the IJsellinie.
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Nov 14, 2013 23:20
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SeanBeansShako posted:For the Russian Civil War, I quite like White Army Black Baron:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcsYtHggelg (White Army, Black Baron owns) My favorite Latin American military tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlL7-KSFPx8 (Which ended up strongly associated with the dictatorships)
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Nov 14, 2013 23:21
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:What are some of your favorite military-related songs? Folk songs or marching songs, it doesn't matter. One of the most beautiful and most  songs I know is the Hills of Manchuria, a waltz written by a veteran of the Russo-Japanese war.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWDgs34wilk If you ever need a truly eerie military march, you should go for the old Swedish "Narva March". Supposedly played as Charles XII's army slowly approached Narva amid a blizzard. Nowadays used in funerals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM3t-17Godc
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Nov 14, 2013 23:22
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a travelling HEGEL posted:These are later, from the British Isles. Planxty are Irish, as is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBdywzKD2Jw
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Nov 14, 2013 23:29
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Rabhadh posted:Planxty are Irish, as is this
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Nov 14, 2013 23:33
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a travelling HEGEL posted:I'm aware of that. Ireland is part of the British Isles, and the people who wrote those songs were in the army of the British Empire. My latent republicanism wouldn't let me pass it over though
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Nov 14, 2013 23:36
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a travelling HEGEL posted:I'm aware of that. Ireland is part of the British Isles, and the people who wrote those songs were in the army of the British Empire. And for good measure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHY14OVk7r0
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Nov 14, 2013 23:44
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Ensign Expendable posted:I am a fan of the Soviet March of the Artillerymen. I love any sort of WWII Soviet song (Katyusha, My Army, etc.)
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Nov 14, 2013 23:46
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The Red Army in song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6V2g9H-yIE and in dance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WpYWpN0VXU
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Nov 15, 2013 00:09
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:Also, according to Hew Strachan when I spoke to him, any time Keegan talks about Clausewitz or WWI. lmao This was my Ph.D advisor's take on Keegan too, but especially whenever he talked about naval warfare. Someone else I think described Keegan as a man who had never read a primary source in his life. As for songs, I think my favorites are two from the Civil War: The first is a Union "gently caress you" to the Southern song "Bonnie Blue Flag": quote:REPLY TO "THE BONNIE BLUE FLAG" [Also known as The Stripes and Stars] The second one was popular with German-American immigrants, who were often some of the most patriotic soldiers the North had even if they couldn't speak English all that well. quote:I GOES TO FIGHT MIT SIGEL Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Nov 15, 2013 |
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Nov 15, 2013 00:12
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Cavalry question: I've heard it asserted that the Hakkapeliitta, Finnish light cavalry, didn't actually exist and weren't actually used by Gustavus Adolphus. Is there any truth to either their existence or their definite disproof?
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Nov 15, 2013 00:14
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I used to wonder why slavvic dancing has so many leg kicks. Then hung out with a bunch of really drunk russians. Their dancing is stylized russian drunken antics.
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Nov 15, 2013 00:33
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Here's an Soviet anti-war song I just discovered: "Do the Russians want a war?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8AfRpO8GXY Honestly, I had no idea there was enough to fill an entire article on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songs_and_poetry_of_Soviet_servicemen_deployed_to_Vietnam Fantom is especially catchy and quite metal, if a little racist. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78quF1msW-k Honestly I'm starting to wonder if we could do with a Soviet Cultural Highlights thread. Fangz fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Nov 15, 2013 |
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Nov 15, 2013 00:39
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:This was my Ph.D advisor's take on Keegan too, but especially whenever he talked about naval warfare. Someone else I think described Keegan as a man who had never read a primary source in his life. Oh, that. He had a part in his book on WWI where he claimed the Royal Navy had an overly romantic view of modern warfare and was still attached to a "culture of the signal flag", as opposed to embracing the radio. It really is a shame, because Face of Battle is an awesome book and absolutely worth the read. Six Armies in Normandy is also good and gets his point on cultures of warfare across in a less in-your-face way.
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Nov 15, 2013 00:45
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I'm rather fond of Joe Strummer and The Mescaleros' version of "The Minstrel Boy" largely because it's a rough performance, rather than the super-polished version of most rebel songs you hear round these parts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJi0H7D17IM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Minstrel_Boy Rabhadh posted:My latent republicanism wouldn't let me pass it over though
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Nov 15, 2013 01:11
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Fangz posted:Honestly I'm starting to wonder if we could do with a Soviet Cultural Highlights thread. I love this idea, but I'm not sure I have enough knowledge to start the thread. What I've seen of Soviet film, animation, and music has been very impressive.
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Nov 15, 2013 01:47
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I love the songs that have been made about war, and now this page is going to take me forever to get through to listen to all of these. Here's this chipper recruitment song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1WGgSCO9k0 Then there's these songs about conflicts that didn't turn out so well for the parties involved: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Ufe0jF-AE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w5JlDn9WCw And I was listening to these Irish rebellion songs earlier today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3oL7KnJ1yA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28Bq_2soGIA They have an interesting flavor to them, since they've still got some bitterness in them about the whole thing.
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Nov 15, 2013 01:48
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I'm up for it too. I need something to back up my 'gently caress you' to these weird people showing up these days who seem to be upset enough with all kinds Soviet stuff they associate it all in the same place Nazi Germany.
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Nov 15, 2013 01:49
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The IRA had some good songs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP6oWExnoRQ
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Nov 15, 2013 01:53
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Peruser posted:The IRA had some good songs Dude, I defy you to find me an IRA song that doesn't rule. Cannot be done.
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Nov 15, 2013 01:53
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Found a recording of "I Goes to Fight mit Sigel": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUSJA-vtg_s
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Nov 15, 2013 01:56
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