Ask Us About Military History: Remove Balls To Fire Blanks

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HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Hogge Wild posted:

From where did you read that Swedish cavalry didn't have any firearms?

Whoah. They had no pistols, but were instead outfitted as harquebusiers. My bad! Changing it now. Your quote has immortalized my shame :sweatdrop:

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Nov 17, 2013

# ¿ Nov 17, 2013 00:30

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 15:39

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Rabhadh posted:

Re: Sword chat, was Colichemarde a thing during the 30 years war? This wiki page gives 1680 as an invention date, but who knows if some kind of proto-Colichemarde was in use earlier. I believe the only surviving examples are on Small Swords though.

There are tons of pre-rapiers, proto-rapiers, and transition rapiers out there, the categories of many of which bleed into one another in practice. I do not remember seeing any swords with that cross section from this period.

However, I'm not a sword specialist, so if I say "I haven't seen any," that'll mean almost nothing--if I'm going to a museum, I'll be outside looking at the artillery park before I'm inside with the swords. (I met a half-cannon outside a restaurant near the Festung Dresden museum. His name was Julius. :kimchi:

) So the answer is...maybe not? Sorry.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2013 13:11

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Panzeh posted:

Also, I imagine most people who were taking swords into battle didn't exactly get to pick and choose which kind they wanted, so it might not be that illogical that some impractical types would be there.

It's actually not impractical for a musketeer or pikeman to carry a small weapon as a backup, because after poo poo starts going down the field is going to look like this:

(this picture is from a hundred years prior to what we are talking about, but what pike-on-pike combat looks like is similar)

You need something small enough so that you have room to fight in this poo poo show.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Nov 17, 2013

# ¿ Nov 17, 2013 14:50

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Kemper Boyd posted:

Isn't the name of that image "Bad War?"

Yup. It's also the technical term for that event. Hot pike on pike action. :getin:

# ¿ Nov 17, 2013 16:36

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Hovermoose posted:

How on earth was battlefield command & control done in engagements like this? You'd think that after two such units locked in melee they'd stay locked until one side routed or something?

Everyone knows what their side's aim is and tactical decisions are still relatively straightforward. Like I said, a big square like that is strong enough to operate almost independently if it needs to. These are several companies, and total anywhere from (depending on period and strength) 1,500 to 3,000 people.

You can send a runner over, but once the battle begins (and this is going to be the case up until the 19th century, I think. Later? Earlier? Help me out here, someone) a lot of things are going to be out of the commander's hands, especially if (like Gustavus Adolphus or Pappenheim) he also fights. This isn't Wellington standing on a hill or something--when Gustavus Adolphus died he was leading a cavalry charge against Wallenstein's left wing.

Although you can make meaningful decisions after the battle starts, no wonder military theorists believe so much depends on initial deployment.

Edit:

Koramei posted:

It wasn't

That is basically what happened. Battles are not orderly things.

Not entirely. Look at this overview of the Battle of Breitenfeld: Tilly, Pappenheim, Gustavus Adolphus, and Horn are all making decisions and doing things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Breitenfeld_(1631)#Tactical_Overview
Just, the decisions they make cannot be very granular. It's at the level of "The Saxons are wavering; press the attack" or "Refuse the Swedish line," not at the level of directing individual tercios or brigades. That's what their own officers are for.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 17, 2013

# ¿ Nov 17, 2013 18:11

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Koramei posted:

Even in a general melee like that? That couldn't have been common, surely?

Well, tactics are without finesse but it's still possible to tell people to do things. But the reason "bad war" was "bad" is because it's hard to do anything but pick your way through the thicket of pikes and die once they get locked. It's not a desirable situation.

quote:

Incidentally I really love the picture on that section (someone posted it earlier in the thread too) . I don't know if it was intentional but the clouds of smoke show so much more than just musketfire.

Thanks. The Early Modern period had a number of really fine artists in it, and a lot of 16th century Swiss or German engravers were also soldiers.

Here's some work by the Swiss artist/mercenary Urs Graf, who seems to have had a good sense of humor. I posted these in the last thread, too.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2013 19:37

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sullat posted:

Someone posted a movie clip of pike on pike action, and in it, a protagonist-looking guy and some others crawled under the Pikes with swords and daggers and commenced to stabbing. Was this a typical part of pike warfare, or Hollywood action?

Nah, you can do that. Look at half the guys in the engraving I posted. They've dropped the pikes and gone either to their swords (which I wouldn't have done, still too big--but then again my eyesight is so bad that if I stand at the butt end of a pike the point is blurry) or their cinquedeas or something (which would have been my choice).

Bacarruda posted:

The Smithsonian donated several pieces from their artillery collection during World War II(?) as scrap metal...

Jeez.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Nov 17, 2013

# ¿ Nov 17, 2013 20:11

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Obdicut posted:

A friend of mine in England has a poker that started out life as a cavalry officer's sword from 1550 and has been poked into fires ever since then. The handle of it is worn away but maker's marks and the rest are still visible enough to verify what it was but it's in just terrible condition. The blade is snapped off about 1/3 of the way down too, something that happened around WWI when someone used it to lever open a locked door.

Everyone knew it was this old sword they just thought it was fun to use it as a poker. They gave the scabbard to a theatrical society at some point, too, or they just lost it and thought that'd sound better.

Things that make historians cry.

Everyone is going to laugh, but I don't care--while this sucks hardcore, a sword is a tool, but a big gun is halfway between a tool and a person. People name them and believe they have personalities. It's A Thing.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2013 20:51

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Obdicut posted:

I don't think you can see piles of swords from 1550.

They're still valuable and important and you shouldn't do that to them, but yes you can.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2013 21:32

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AATREK CURES KIDS posted:

That's because someone didn't feel compelled to preserve a sword that actually got used, damaged, resharpened, and so on. I love the look of equipment that's really been used, like a sword with sackcloth tied around the base of the blade or a gun with hasty patches around a big crack in the stock.

I own a pharmacists' reference book from the 1840s. There's a big rip on one of the back pages that's been mended with sticky labels. It's really cool.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2013 21:48

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Farecoal posted:

How effective were the various European resistance movements during World War 2, particularly the French? And were there similar resistance groups in areas under Japanese occupation?

I remember an anthropologist who studied some tribe in Burma writing about a ritual a friend of his was going through that could only be undergone by someone who had taken a head. This being the fifties, it was now in decline, but this man had been a resistance fighter against the Japanese.

:kheldragar:

# ¿ Nov 18, 2013 00:29

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Hogge Wild posted:

HEGEL, did the 30 Years War's Swedish cavalry really use arquebuses? I've always thought that they had only pistols. I don't have any real sources to base my opinion on, and internet sources are conflicting. Though arquebus would make more sense because it's cheaper than two pistols.

Take everything I say here with a grain of salt, because I am not a Swedish specialist; I'm getting this from a mixture of secondary sources and Wikipedia. So if anyone finds something better, they are welcome to :justpost:

To me, though, it stands to reason, because (1) the Swedish army was bumping up against the limits of its ability to provide for itself, both in terms of making things domestically and in terms of paying for someone else to make them (for instance, I know that Swedish cav was also lightly armored, except for the Germans among them) and (2) the musketeers/cav formations and the rejection of the caracole imply that they're compensating for a perceived lack. They turned out to have been great ideas (the first is unequivocally cool; the second is either the coolest thing ever or not that important depending on which historian you listen to), but they were conceived of as ersatz.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Nov 18, 2013

# ¿ Nov 18, 2013 11:02

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Also, I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that "a rapier" is a civilian sword by definition, that you can have long thin swords with (depending on the period) no sharpened edges and it's a rapier if you're on a city street and something else if you're on the field, but (1) I am not entirely sure about this, and (2) who the gently caress cares? :spergin:

# ¿ Nov 18, 2013 11:30

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Double

# ¿ Nov 18, 2013 11:30

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KoldPT posted:

Could someone do an effortpost on Prussia's kings? Hegel did an amazing one on Big Fred already, but, reading up on Prussia, it seems incredible how often the Hohenzollern monarchs have constant swings in personality and style of rule from generation to generation, like a massive pendulum made of iron and guns.

Well, it didn't help that Frederick the Great didn't just take one for the team, get really drunk, and screw a goddamned woman. Instead, his nephew succeeded him, and that dude was real dumb.

# ¿ Nov 18, 2013 19:41

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SeanBeansShako posted:

But you don't understand! Pretty solders who can march perfectly will beat Napoleon!

It's also important to suppress the work of our important philosophers! Those guys preach sedition and free thought! :pseudo:

Yeah, gently caress that guy.

# ¿ Nov 18, 2013 19:52

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Unluckyimmortal posted:

Just goes to show that Germany does not hold a monopoly amongst the Axis powers on building completely worthless giant-piece-of-poo poo vehicles and ships.

They do take the plum for these things, though. Have you ever been walking around Vienna, minding your own business, and then out of nowhere FLAK TOWER, looming out of the city like the concrete cover over Chernobyl? It's unnerving, man. If you stare at it for more than a few minutes at a time, things start to feel unwholesome. Go about your little life, do whatever you please--the FLAK TOWER doesn't give a drat.

Edit: Then I forgot that there was more than one in Vienna, started using the one I was most familiar with as a landmark, and had no idea for a few days why I was getting lost.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Nov 18, 2013

# ¿ Nov 18, 2013 20:20

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Nenonen posted:

Were FlaK towers really worthless, though? To me it seems like it's an idea that could have been worthwhile for some non-German major cities too - elevating your heavy AA batteries above tree and rooftops while providing a heavily reinforced and defended shelter for your civilian population. AFAIK none of them were destroyed during war, and the Berlin Zoo tower provided direct fire support to defenders of Berlin and in general stood as a resistance strongpoint to the very end.

No, they're not worthless at all. But they do exemplify the fascist weakness for high profile vanity projects.

It's just that looking at them is a little...odd. :cthulhu:

# ¿ Nov 18, 2013 20:41

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Since I'm super tired and feel like poo poo, here's a song about being super tired and feeling like poo poo, "Francois 1er Part En Guerre."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Dj_BUUhAU

quote:

The King's going over the mountains,
the King's going over the mountains,
He'll send a lot of infantry
And it'll be hard for them.
My breath, my breath, can't get my breath.

We're going to get you, Spanish,
We're going to get you, Spanish,
We serve the King of France
That's a hard job.
My breath, my breath, can't get my breath.

(Interestingly enough, a song I already posted, "Joerg von Frundsberg fuehrt uns an," is about what happened when the guys who composed that song went to Pavia.)

This is more upbeat: the Anthem of France, first verse from 1590.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h5M78YVN8M

quote:

Long live Henri IV
Long live that valiant king!
This old dog
has a triple talent:
he can drink, he can fight,
and he's a silver fox.
He can drink, he can fight,
and he's a silver fox.

That's right motherfuckers, our head of state can drink and fight and gently caress all night. Suck it, lesser monarchs. :slick:

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Nov 19, 2013

# ¿ Nov 18, 2013 20:56

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Rodrigo Diaz posted:

I think you're overestimating the importance of having a short sword.

I'm not discounting longer swords at all--I'm just saying I personally wouldn't have chosen to use a bigger one because I couldn't trust myself not to snag myself or hang myself up on a halberd or something. My eyesight is terrible.

But my further point is that it appears that a bunch of people have switched to swords-that-look-like-rapiers by at least the 1630s, more than a hundred years after "Bad War" was printed. Whether this was the optimal choice, if made in a vacuum, isn't the point.

Edit: The big version of "Bad War" is the prettiest thing I've seen today, and everyone should click on it. Although, at that size you kind of can't see my favorite part, which is the way the discoloration/spatter, whether deliberate or not, adds to the feeling of the scene.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Nov 19, 2013

# ¿ Nov 18, 2013 23:01

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Rodrigo Diaz posted:

There's also a bec-de-corbin lurking on the right side of the image, which is interesting.

Well, the guy was obviously thinking about ganking a guy in armor. Speaking of which, Monro reports the use of morningstars, but only in a defensive context. He also calls them by the German word, which is interesting.

# ¿ Nov 18, 2013 23:42

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Rodrigo Diaz posted:

I read somewhere, recently, that morningstar was a euphemism for something other than the spiked club. I think it might have been a mine or bomb of some kind, but I really don't know. Do you have any idea what I'm talking about?

He definitely described people holding the things while standing at walls (wooden walls of a fortified camp, which is really cool since we don't often think about that sort of thing). I don't know what you're talking about, but if I encounter this anywhere I'll let the thread know.

# ¿ Nov 18, 2013 23:51

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

I just remembered something about the Callot prints that might not have occurred to a non-specialist. Everyone in them is thin as hell, which is not the period's ideal of beauty. Look at Titian for what they think is sexy in women, respectable and dignified in men. In contrast, everyone in Callot looks like they're about to die, which they probably are.

Yet even so the officers make the same jaunty dancing-master poses that they make in a hundred paintings--feet perpendicular, chest thrown out, one hand delicately on the hip. Even while their limbs are practically skeletal, even while they're supervising a firing squad. I think it's intended to be somewhat grotesque.

Edit: In contrast, the men of "Bad War" are idealized beefcakes and probably modeled on Classical reliefs.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Nov 19, 2013

# ¿ Nov 19, 2013 12:45

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VaultAggie posted:

What kind of wooden sailing vessels were ideal for combat during the 16 and 17th centuries? Like, construction material, guns, crews, sail material, etc?

War galleys. Maneuverable, you don't have to gently caress around with wind direction or any of that bullshit; stick a bunch of soldiers on that poo poo; guns go on the front, parallel to the line of motion, load them with stone/iron shot for long range shipkilling and with small shot/iron dice for antipersonnel use. And you can do amphibious assaults with them, or haul them onshore, turn their bows toward the sea, and use their guns to supplement your shore defenses. Every Mediterranean power had a fuckload.

Try to find a copy of this book that won't completely bankrupt you (my edition is from the 70s, not the new one) and read it.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2013 20:49

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Rodrigo Diaz posted:

There is a buff coat or some other kind of padded armour from the 17th century in the Kelvingrove Art Gallery & Museum that has a bullet mark in it, so clearly there were some types of shot that could be received. But this was not really a function of the mail itself...

Not to mention the low muzzle velocity of the period and the fact that we have no idea what that bullet had been doing before it hit that guy. It could have been a ricochet, it could have been almost spent, it could have been doing any number of things.

Although, considering the low muzzle velocity of the period, mail would be more likely to stop a bullet than it would be today...

# ¿ Nov 21, 2013 02:24

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Tevery Best posted:

I have a probably out of print book on the subject with a couple of nice diagrams of legionary formations in Caesar's time, is it OK if I scan those and post them here, or would it be considered ?

I have posted pictures from books before and it's been cool; besides, a number of them say you can duplicate stuff for educational purposes.

Edit: If you're really worried, though, you should probably ask a mod rather than some random person on the internet.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 11:18 on Nov 21, 2013

# ¿ Nov 21, 2013 11:05

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On a lazy day in camp outside the Pleissenburg in Leipzig in 1631, somebody made some sketches (with watercolor :3:

). Since two of the people depicted are screwing around with swords, this is germane to the discussion.

They're very thin.

Also of note is the distinctive early modern German/northern Italian/English fortification style--the Pleissenburg was rebuilt after 1547, when the building which had stood there earlier was damaged in the Schmalkaldic War, making this fortress already out-of-date at the time the sketch was made.

Edit: Whoever did this writes well--look at the display script on the top right corner. I wonder who he or she was?

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Nov 21, 2013

# ¿ Nov 21, 2013 19:29

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Koramei posted:

^(click)

Yes.

Kate Beaton always makes me giggle like an idiot. "This may not be a great thing for Spain" pops into my head every now and then and I lose it.

This is great too: http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=345

Also, glad to see Rodrigo Diaz hasn't driven you off. His style used to be a great deal more...muscular. He's toned it down.

# ¿ Nov 21, 2013 19:48

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You guys should listen to this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK16e-Emrms

# ¿ Nov 21, 2013 21:53

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Godspeed you! holy roman emperor

Lift your skinny pikes like antennas to heaven

# ¿ Nov 21, 2013 23:47

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The buildings in the Dresden altstadt were painstakingly restored from the 1960s until 2005, and you can tell the difference between replacement blocks of stone, which are clean pale sandstone, and the original blocks, blackened by fire. Some buildings have a patchwork look, or have one or two light areas starting out of a darker field where a balustrade or a window vanished, too blasted to repair. I feel weighed down when I walk around these buildings. The memory'll always be with them, in the dark stone.

Which means I know what all my friends are getting for Christmas, whether they want some or not.
http://www.frauenkirchensteine.de/?page_id=59

Edit: Like much of the material recovered from the wreckage of the old city center, this chocolate is organic. :yum:

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Nov 22, 2013

# ¿ Nov 22, 2013 02:45

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Koesj posted:

e: I know gently caress all about nazi heraldry so I wouldn't be able to tell you about the center left thingy...

Minesweeper War Badge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minesweeper_War_Badge

# ¿ Nov 22, 2013 17:34

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Shimrra Jamaane posted:

So 20+ years after the opening of the Soviet archives are there still lots of things still to be uncovered, translated, regarding WWII or do we have as good a grasp on things as we're gonna get?

I've been in Dresden for a month and a half, and in that time I have been able to read and completely record about ten muster rolls. I've improved my speed from one roll a week to one roll a day, which is a big step for me, but I have not yet gone through a single bound volume of records. And I don't know if any of this work will be relevant to the final form of my dissertation.

Primary source historical research is one of the slowest disciplines in the world.

AdmiralSmeggins posted:

I suppose I should probably introduce myself, considering I signed up because threads like this are what I'm all about.
I was until recently a postgraduate student of Strategy and Intelligence, specialising in Counter Insurgency and Revolutionary Guerrilla warfare/ Ethics of Intelligence in Democracies. Looking forward to adding to and taking from the discussion. I suppose I'd be able to add to conversations about such things, but how much I have no idea.

Great, more post-Industrial-Revolution specialists. Just what we need. :rolleyes:

Just kidding, of course. Welcome.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Nov 23, 2013

# ¿ Nov 23, 2013 14:25

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ArchangeI posted:

And there are probably a lot more surviving Soviet documents than there are Early Modern Saxon ones.

They're probably typed, though, which means nobody has to take paleography courses before they begin. (Fun fact: my paleography course ended in the 14/1500s. There are no courses for the Early Modern period. Like my advisors did when they were young, I am expected to teach myself.)

Edit: I went up to my room to get my notebooks, and the number is nine. Nine rolls exactly. I'll never come home. :cripes:

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Nov 23, 2013

# ¿ Nov 23, 2013 14:29

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AdmiralSmeggins posted:

We do seem to be something of a bog standard in academia at least, if it's any consolation, I only care about 'small wars', have never been big on Cold War (outside of absurdities such as ekranoplan or warplans) and the World Wars bore the arse off me. You can have your Rommel, I'm a Giap man through and through.

Giap does rule, you're right there.

quote:

My newfound interest in warfare from the Siege of Vienna to, well, the congress of Vienna was actually peaked from lurking in this thread

The Siege of Vienna? Still way too late. Why, the pike is on the way out by then! Not cool at all.

Although, I have gone to a bar that still has a cannonball in its wall from the '84 siege, that was pretty cool. And I've walked past a place that pried their cannonball out, gilded it, and hung it above the door where the establishment's sign usually goes.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Nov 23, 2013

# ¿ Nov 23, 2013 15:02

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AdmiralSmeggins posted:

hipster

a travelling HEGEL posted:

Godspeed you! holy roman emperor

Lift your skinny pikes like antennas to heaven

# ¿ Nov 23, 2013 15:20

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Speaking of German armor:

Kurf�rst August von Sachsen, by Zacharias Wehme, 1586. Commissioned upon Elector August's death by his son, Christian II von Sachsen.

Edit: And this is Christian II.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Nov 24, 2013

# ¿ Nov 23, 2013 23:02

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Shimrra Jamaane posted:

So the Military History thread in D&D, is it as bad as I fear it is?

Actually, there's not very much political discussion at all, of any ideological stripe. A lot of posts have been quite superficial, though, and some just flat out incorrect. When I feel less tired I might effortpost in there.

# ¿ Nov 24, 2013 00:36

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InspectorBloor posted:

I've been to the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum in Vienna today...

When I was there, I may or may not have sidled up to that case of pikes and held onto one for a while. :ssh:

# ¿ Nov 24, 2013 02:23

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 15:39

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OK, who here hasn't been to the HGM?

Plutonis posted:

A: Were the Janissaries really the elite unit that most historians claim to be?

Depending on what period you're talking about, yes or no. In the Early Modern period, they were characterized by a high level of discipline, very good firearms (mass-produced and centrally-distributed, which is so loving :sicknasty:

), a good drill which allowed them to use these firearms effectively, and good morale.

Later on, although I don't know so much about this, the fact that they were so highly respected and that it was possible for them to make lots of money as officials when they got older led to corruptions like people with no interest in the military bribing the government to let them/their kids join.

Edit: F, B with nearly the same goddamn phrase, wow.

Edit 2: I've heard good things about Guns for the Sultan, if you're interested in Ottoman weapons production, but I haven't read it yet so if it turns out to suck don't blame me.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Nov 24, 2013

# ¿ Nov 24, 2013 19:01

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