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spoon0042 posted:Wasn't that his replace-technology-with-magic-why-aren't-you-taking-me-seriously "aura" idea? No, it wasn't his. Stole it from someone else.
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May 11, 2014 19:15
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Ants are known for how well they organize themselves. Why, you should see their tax code.
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May 11, 2014 19:17
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Wanamingo posted:No, it wasn't his. Stole it from someone else. He did write a story about kids who's auras had  scorpion tattoos because they coupled with their classmates at the Karate Club, though.-EDIT- Now that I think about it, he never creditted the aura idea and even acted as if it was his own. Jesus, Eprisa, you idea-stealing prick! Who What Now fucked around with this message at 19:34 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 19:30
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Oh this is where this thread went to. Eripsa, Darwin didn't show that biological organisms could be understood under Newtonian mechanics. It would be surprising if he did, because 1. biological mechanics are as Newtonian as any other mechanics, animals obey F = ma and 2. biological evolution is not explicable in terms of Newtonian mechanics. What he did do was show how the origin of species could be explained in naturalist philosophical terms, which brought it in line with the other sciences, of which Newtonian mechanics was emblematic. But 'biological evolution' is not unified with or explained by 'Newtonian mechanics' in Darwin or anywhere else. Nor is this at all like the work of Kant, Marx or Newton.* I dunno what your actual thought processes were but it sure looks like you took a superficial similarity, misunderstood it, overgeneralised it and claimed insight. And then lashed out at people who understood the mistake you were making because you didn't understand it yourself, and you have to be right about this one because it's closer to your actual specialism so your intellectual ego can't afford to be shown up here. Eripsa, is it important whether or not strangecoin is nonlinear, and if so, why? *At least, this is my interpretation. I'm not an expert either. Peel fucked around with this message at 19:47 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 19:44
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Peel posted:Eripsa, is it important whether or not strangecoin is nonlinear, and if so, why? He had a crisis about that and came close to indirectly admitting failure. Then, he entered into a cargo cult Aquinas fugue and talked himself out of it, so everything's OK.
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May 11, 2014 19:46
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Peel posted:I dunno what your actual thought processes were but it sure looks like you took a superficial similarity, misunderstood it, overgeneralised it and claimed insight. This is much, perhaps all, of his thought process. Time and time again Eripsa see something that on first inspection looks like something else, draws ridiculous comparisons between the two on levels not at all justified, and then twists himself into knots trying to make the comparison stand up in the face of superior knowledge. This was my in to the thread several incarnations ago, incidentally, when he tried to argue that since modern infantry combat uses smaller, more flexible units than Napoleonic linear drill, therefore the modern combat squad is a key example of decentralized self-organization. As a military historian, I took exception, and doooooooown the rabbit-hole we tumbled.
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May 11, 2014 19:48
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Captain_Maclaine posted:This is much, perhaps all, of his thought process. Time and time again Eripsa see something that on first inspection looks like something else, draws ridiculous comparisons between the two on levels not at all justified, and then twists himself into knots trying to make the comparison stand up in the face of superior knowledge. This was my in to the thread several incarnations ago, incidentally, when he tried to argue that since modern infantry combat uses smaller, more flexible units than Napoleonic linear drill, therefore the modern combat squad is a key example of decentralized self-organization. As a military historian, I took exception, and doooooooown the rabbit-hole we tumbled. obligatory reminder: Adar posted:It would probably be helpful to your cause if you could at least point out why Captain Dunning lost Napoleon the war with his reckless charge right into Corporal Kruger's forces. RealityApologist posted:I don't give a poo poo about anything in this post.
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May 11, 2014 19:56
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RealityApologist posted:Your argument is "if I try to get influence in the system it's going to be a lot of hard work trying to balance that additional power". Ugh this is growing tiresome. You can declare victory all you want, but you are blind to the perverse, counteracting incentives you've built into this system. Innovation is a one way ticket to destroying the carefully built and maintained network of friends and family you have constructed. Never invent anything. All research must stop, because if you produce something valuable you will not only make your life more difficult (nice red herring that completely misses the point) but it actively destroys the lives of the people who are presumably closest to you. And for all the desire you express for stability, all incentives of the system actively oppose it. If I invented the cure for cancer, mother of god we will be depending on the New Soviet Society in order for things not to fall apart. "We will produce this and distribute it in our own free time, no payment required and oh god please don't support us our networks nooooo" Let me sum up so there is no ambiguity: 1. Risk aversion indicates that no one will actually use Support/Endorse/Couple because it places the well being of their whole network in the hands of someone else, whereas simple payments will suffice. 2. Compounding the issue of risk aversion, I know from incidents of Moral Hazard and the Lucas Critique that every time I do endorse/support/couple or even transact with someone their behavior will change to accommodate the new reality they find themselves in. Thus if I support someone, their incentive is to raise further income (to take advantage of my support) and then spend that income (because they want a balanced account). Their behavior changed in response to the incentives I provided counter to my interests, which invalidates the conditions our original connection was based. And once again this is not just my well being, but the well being of everyone else I am connected to (and god knows why or how we got in that position beyond "here is the arrangement at the start of the world"). 3. Because of risk aversion, moral hazard and the Lucas Critique the only viable transaction type is Payment, unless people are forced to use the others through hereto unmentioned means. If that is the case, it leads to problems described above, namely that such inter-connectivity means any deviation in my behavior (be it innovation or medical emergency or whatever) can have catastrophic implications for both me and the network around me. This is a system that falls apart as soon as it is set in motion. 4. Innovation under the system you describe is incredibly penalized, leading to the suffering of not only the person who innovates but everyone closest to them and the network they are apart of. Indeed any deviation from the 'plan' is penalized. Population growth becomes a thing of the past, even more than it is now as children require huge amounts of income and expenditures which will invalidate the connections you have created prior to starting a family. You know what I like doing before embarking on a 20+ year journey of uncertainty, with no idea about what to expect? Severing all economic ties I currently have prior to doing it. 5. Anything above the bare minimum work mandated by the system as it is set up to begin with, will require a New Soviet Man style willingness to perform functions, invent new things, and devote time and effort with no expectation of any reward whatsoever beyond personal satisfaction in that endeavor. Because any innovation destroys the system. Particularly, trying to reward someone could be interpreted as a hostile act by that person, that person's network and you own network. 6. Leaving behind that insanity, let's say instead we stick to payments and use the patterns within the payments people make to generate connections on the StrangeNetwork. 7. People are now freer to make personal decisions without having huge, far reaching impacts on the network of people closest to them. If I pay someone, it has no bearing on people who previously paid them. If they pay me, it has no bearing on their 'supporters' or 'endorsers' or whatever, they have a given amount of coin that represents their income and they choose to spend it as they see fit. Now the network contains real information about what we like, and can actually handle emergent behaviors that accommodate innovation, population growth and all the other potential changes to the system. 8. There is a problem that remains once you ignore the unholy trinity of support/endorse/couple. Money demand still does not work the way you claim it does. Savings are still penalized in Strangeland. There are still hard limits to the ability to hold money over a long period of time, much less seeing any benefit to it beyond extremely short sighted "I'll save up for a really big purchase" ideas. Of course at least that is possible when people deal solely in payments, as opposed to people who would be beating down your doors to get you to spend money so the endorsements come out of their accounts and their accounts remain balanced and stable. 9. So long as there is a balance cap and added benefit from having Income = Expenditures, then money demand goes to zero. I have no reason to hold this money, it does not benefit me in any way and if I hold it for too long then I start getting black marks on my account because my I>E. And even if everything goes wrong I can pull as much as I need from TUA. 10. The incentive structure you originally set up, combining your transaction types, TUA and the specified 'win conditions' is extremely perverse and self destructive, depending on immense good will or black markets to advance or change, else the whole thing blows up. Leaving out the transaction types improves the situation in that it can at least have emergent behavior. However the perverse incentives induced by the account caps, TUA and the 'win conditions' remain, which will play out exactly as I described to begin with. If you want to do something interesting, take the existing economic model and apply that aura idea to it. See how people react if they are constantly confronted with the knowledge of exactly who and what they are dealing with. Call it the StrangeWeb, where everyone is surrounded by an aura like this:  Where the tendrils connect them to everyone they transact with, the strength and brightness of which indicating the regularity/strength of that connection that saves the history of past transactions along that thread. You'd see lots of little networks, many subsets of large networks. Now confront people with that information directly and see how, leaving everything save that the same, how does behavior change? That's an interesting question. The strangecoin proposal misses this interesting question in an attempt to invent a new economic structure for reasons that still baffle me. And the economic system you describe simply falls apart at the slightest provocation, as many such utopian designs do.
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May 11, 2014 21:02
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Adar posted:They are different, though. That's a feature that's at the very bedrock of the foundation strangecoins are built on (and by bedrock I mean quicksand mixed with tar pits). It is unquestionably true that when I am born with a mild facial deformity, am gay, am black, etc. my coins are worth less than your coins. Oh, I see, your argument is that for a brief instant before everything implodes there'll be a disgusting mire of pointless discrimination and suffering as people realize they're not actually obligated to participate in the economy in any meaningful way and their only incentive is to use it as a means to get back at people they don't like very much. And that this, of course, is by-design the point of the inhibition/support/endorsement system, because in theory all the discrimination will occur against people Eripsa doesn't like. Krotera fucked around with this message at 21:07 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 21:03
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Erispa posted:I'm not saying discrimination is a good thing. I'm saying that it's part of how human communities organize. "We acknowledge that discriminations exists" does not mean "we should make it easy to base economic interactions on discrimination"  EripsRA posted:I love how GulMadred gives a cogent discussion of the arguments in these threads, and everyone's response is "well it don't make sense when Eripsa says it". You are all so blind with rage it's hilarious. A much better poster, Install Windows posted:You don't need to program that, everyone is constantly seeing everyone else's transaction data according to Eripsa. This runs into the problem that peoeple * can't possibly deal with the glut of incoming information * won't give a poo poo anyways; I want a burger for  and I actively don't want to care about who you are even if my smartphone tells me you are an rear end in a top hatEven if we suppose people will act according to "upvotes = doubleplusgood; downvotes = unperson who unbellyfeels anthill", this will only make it really easy for a bunch of internet morons to suddenly downvote (sorry, inhibit) all the jews or something. No wait, I remember you saying that people have to accept being downvoted for it to have effect, so everyone has infinite money all the time anyway  Erripsa posted:edit: cut the essay This is literally the best thing you did in this thread. suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 21:16 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 21:13
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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RealityApologist posted:I love how GulMadred gives a cogent discussion of the arguments in these threads, and everyone's response is "well it don't make sense when Eripsa says it". You are all so blind with rage it's hilarious. Sorry, but I've read probably 75% of the words you've ever posted in D&D and I have no emotional connection to anything you've said. I just find these threads entertaining. He really did do a much better job explaining it than you did.
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May 12, 2014 04:00
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Somebody fucked around with this message at 05:38 on May 12, 2014 |
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May 12, 2014 05:33
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Why did the mods edit out Gerty's cogent thesis on Strangecoin?
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May 12, 2014 05:51
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Dusseldorf posted:Why did the mods edit out Gerty's cogent thesis on Strangecoin? It would be one thing if he only posted goatse in this thread, but he had to go and increase his throughput by networking it across many threads at once. There in lies the problem with Strangecoin: goatse inflation.
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May 12, 2014 05:57
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Saw an ant carrying a dead roach today, how can I use this to model my most effective workout strategy?
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May 12, 2014 18:17
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No, you see Erispa already said that the system both incentivizes maximizing throughput and incentivizes maintaining network stability. Although he has not described any mechanism by which these contradictory incentives occur, the principle of charity demands that you act as though this is true. Unfortunately, the principle of charity does not force people to act this way in the real world. Fortunately, any possible real world effects are beyond the scope of this discussion.
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May 13, 2014 14:39
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Dead Reckoning posted:Fortunately, any possible real world effects are beyond the scope of this discussion. Also beyond the scope of the real world.
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May 13, 2014 23:35
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This talk of the aura seems to be literally straight from Walter Benjamin's claims about history and aesthetics in Art and the Age of Reproduction and A Short History of Photography. He claimed that our ability to perceive things in a short term subjective temporary moment, erlebnis, and their participation in the assembled long term social sense, erfarhurng, produced a web of relations that connected the two. This series of connection appeared in the form of an aesthetic relationship. He used this claim to critique the mechanical production of art because he claimed it meant that the economic relationship that occurred throughout history in the long term were expressed in short term moments by agents unintentionally through their aesthetic objects.It meant that things that in theory appeared traditional were not because at the local temporal moment there was unintentional expression. This claim is radically at odds though with a rationalist order or a homostatis of any order though because contingency disrupts any attempt at intentional representations that would carry meaning across time directly. Things like a film expressed a underlying meaning that would appear to the agent as an emotion. The emotion appears legitimate but really just serves the larger underlying meaning. One of his claims is to link certain aesthetics forms with the Nazi's for instance in the attempt to have long term social meaning structure local short term experiences alone. Edit: Fixed Grammar and added example.
Ogodei_Khan fucked around with this message at 07:53 on May 14, 2014 |
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May 14, 2014 07:42
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Theory: RealityApologist is an alien who's frustrated by how hard it is to gather data on us and is trying to trick us into using an economic system that makes it easier.
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May 14, 2014 13:59
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Ratoslov posted:How, precisely, is your
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May 14, 2014 15:32
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'world run by software'
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I thought maybe Eripsa would be a good shaman in the days of old. Then I realized that he would have been stuck at ABVQ (All But Vision Quest) status until his advisor shaman was ashamed to make eye contact with him.
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May 14, 2014 15:36
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Dead Reckoning posted:
I still can't get over how Eripsa is simultaneously able to claim that: 1. He just wants to make this system and see if the emergent properties are useful 2. Emergent properties are frightening so the system has to be changed to behave like he wants (needs) it to behave 3. His personal invented beliefs* are somehow inexorable and will totally happen and be found great to everyone. So, uh, open source everything, no coercion, freedom from castes, strengthening of castes, etc... The emergent properties of his system would be all these things, because no one would ever behave irrationally (defined here as "behaving in a manner that doesn't give me the result I want") *one of my favorite parts from his original Attention Economy threads was where he kept going on about how the future will follow the Digital Values, and it took like 50 pages for him to actually admit this was just a term he made up and didn't actually have a definition for other than "it'll be open source!".
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May 14, 2014 16:23
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Halloween Jack posted:This is not how I approach it. I see it as the upbeat, liberal, no-neckties-on-casual-Friday version of the people who want to rule a Libertopian fortress in the desolate Midwest. I think you're dead-on here. He claims over and over to not be a libertarian, but the proof is in the pudding. He's basically Thomas Friedman.
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May 14, 2014 17:04
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Slanderer posted:3. His personal invented beliefs* are somehow inexorable and will totally happen and be found great to everyone. So, uh, open source everything, no coercion, freedom from castes, strengthening of castes, etc... The emergent properties of his system would be all these things, because no one would ever behave irrationally (defined here as "behaving in a manner that doesn't give me the result I want") So basically Eripsa has a problem when it comes to distunguishing between "I think this is great and everyone should adopt it" and "Everyone thinks this is great and wants to adopt it"
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May 14, 2014 20:36
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I was browsing through the friend menagerie after a horrid day of interacting with actual humans when a notification popped up on my viewgo to remind me it was election day. A spray of confetti was cascaded down the rods and cones of my left iris and a Susa tune blared across the three dimensional soundscape of my biome. My mind had long ago become more adept at accessing and digesting information in the cloud than it was at using it's synaptic structure to store information internally and the ghost of my ego was thankful for the reminder. The arcology wide elections had the usual options, the old guard of Unix zealots parading the same old algorithms for the agriwages to the netizen workers of the solarium spires. The math behind the algorithms had been run in countless models by the quantum computers of the Ibim priesthood and had been discredited in the days before the corp-mergers and the expulsion of the venture capitalists from the wangbas. The Tysonians had a far better chance at building a coalition according to The Silver Institute, and their models had been accurate for 74 years. There were rumors of course that they were in league with the Gazprom Conglomerate laying fiber out in the Arctic gyre. The Dvadadasham when I was a child used to joke that for the first time in history having your head in the clouds was something to be proud of, but we all know their bodies died before everything turned to poo poo. The Walking Dad fucked around with this message at 11:15 on May 15, 2014 |
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May 15, 2014 10:37
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The Walking Dad posted:the Ibim priesthood 
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May 15, 2014 17:54
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If You Have Zero Twitter Followers, You Die in This Manga How many Twitter followers do you have? How many Facebook friends do you have? How many would be willing to die for you? Welcome to the world of Real Account – A world where all social networking services have been unified under a single, universal, all-encompassing, and deadly service. http://kotaku.com/if-you-have-zero-twitter-follows-you-die-in-this-manga-1576757338
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May 15, 2014 17:58
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midnightclimax posted:If You Have Zero Twitter Followers, You Die in This Manga I unironically think this sounds awesome and want to read it.
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