Jagchosis posted:This is a good direction for the thread  we're just too stupid to understand, if only we were as intelligent as him and did his work for him we would recognize his genius e: 
wheez the roux fucked around with this message at 10:58 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 09:14
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RealityApologist posted:I've not claimed to provide a synthesis of Baez and Bechtel/Levy, I have no idea why you would say such a thing. I've only said that my position rests on both arguments. Bechtel argues (not just in the paper I linked, but in many other places for the thesis that mechanistic explanations take the form of organized interaction networks. This is a very general claim about the nature of scientific explanation. Baez gives this abstract claim real scientific content by showing translations between some of the most fundamental sciences (physics and computation); in some sense this is an application of Bechtel's view, and Baez has explicitly acknowledged this connection. ----------------------- In this paper I will present my proposal that nuclear weapon use by crows is a worrying development that threatens the safety of the western world. In their paper published in Nature by Hunt et al, they provide the example of New Caledonian crows ( Corvus moneduloides ) which manufacture and use of two different types of hook tool to aid prey capture. There is an undeniable increase in nuclear weapon stockpilling by rogue actors. The world nuclear association case study on proliferation shows both North Korea and Iran devoting signifiant resources to development of nuclear weapons. Based on this supporting evidence I am confident stating the rogue crows in our nations woodland already have a stockpile of yellow cake uranium. In conclusion, all hail our corvid overlords. -------------------------- What's the problem with the reasoning in the above example ? quote:Given my rhetorical situation in this thread, that you'd even pretend otherwise is just plain cruel. You presented a proposal which was poorly defined and has fatal flaws which prevent anything useful every coming out of it. The flawed bit is not unusual for a first attempt, what is unusual is your inability to acknowledge the glaring problems that people have identified for you and that is the reason why people run out patience and become hostile. I don't know how many times I've said this to you, the problem is not that people do not understand your proposal. The problem is they do understand it and it is rubbish
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May 11, 2014 11:05
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wheez the roux posted:
 
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May 11, 2014 11:22
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RealityApologist posted:Seriously, everyone. GulMadred has consistently explained the proposal I've offered with insight and clarity and sensitivity to its many various features. As far as I can tell he's not convinced by much of it, but he clearly understands the broad strokes of what I'm doing and can see how the system addresses (if not solves) like 90% of the questions and criticisms being raised. People in this thread still ask as if the basic thesis I've proposed is unclear, ambiguous, or unmotivated. If it weren't for his posts I might actually believe that I haven't adequately explained myself, but his posts make very clear that I've said more than enough to make the picture comprehensible and to draw out the conclusions along a number of dimensions. At this point anyone suggesting that my arguments are empty, incoherent, unfocused, inconsistent, self-serving, or arbitrary is either trolling or a complete idiot. So, why don't you respond to his post? I'd be interested to hear your response to it.
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May 11, 2014 11:25
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RealityApologist posted:Too many Step 1: I immediately reject any inhibition of my strangecoin account Also please explain why anyone would give a poo poo about how network-influential I am if I want to buy cheese for :tenbux: Please tell me that's not you, you must be seriously delusional to think that's a remotely useful (or sane) thing to do. RealityApologist posted:Yes, if there were a massive conspiracy against the Jews at all levels up and down the supply chain, then it would result in some rather horrific discrimination. RealityApologist posted:Yes, in fact, I do have some reason to believe that big groups of people will act in concert to prevent acts of child pornography and to persecute those involved with its production and distribution. Without moral judgment one way or the other, I'm plenty confident that this is the kind of issue that will mobilize people well into the future. I'm far less confident that systemic antisemitism enjoys such a unified consensus among the general population. Your entire position seems to boil down to slacktivism.txt And oh well, like every other Eripsa thread this discussion has jumped the shark anyway (I see a pattern here), so I won't refrain from appealing to ~*~human nature~*~ early and often: once again, humans aren't ants. Humans don't act according to largely rational sets of rules. Humans act like complete shitheads for no good reason and there is no way you could make humans act rationally with perfect information, because humans are dumb and ignorant and just don't give a gently caress. RealityApologist posted:I'm not claiming that people won't try to maximize their position. I'm claiming that maximizing throughput arbitrarily isn't a way to maximize one's position. One's position is made more powerful first by: Humans are so irrational and inconsistent you can't even model people as MeramJert posted:So, why don't you respond to his post? I'd be interested to hear your response to it.  Put up or shut up because that's the one thing that will make people take you seriously you moron But since you are obviously unable to do so:
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May 11, 2014 11:46
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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MeramJert posted:So, why don't you respond to his post? I'd be interested to hear your response to it. This whole thing was addressed somewhere around page 20 of the original thread, when we were talking about nepotism. People pointed out that closely-linked subnetworks might nepotistically favour members over non-members (regardless of whether there was any consanguineal or ethnic or political affinity within the subnet - this was a mathematical argument). Eripsa eventually conceded the point, asserting that Strangecoin wouldn't actually solve every problem, but that it would at least make them visible. In this instance, a network spider could trace the links and notice that the subnet in question is showing abnormally high interlinkage, then rule out alternative hypotheses (e.g. geographic proximity of members) and finally publish its discovery. Some people within the subnet might choose to leave (on principle) after having the nepotism thing spelled out for them, while some people outside the subnet might refuse to join it (or even boycott its members). Or, as Cefte hypothesized in his "Attention Deficit" story, the subnet might grow so powerful that shunning it is tantamount to taking oneself off-grid. I was re-raising the issue because it had reoccured in a different context: "rational actors will prefer to transact with people of similar 'wealth' (as measured in throughput), shunning both richer and poorer people because the pricing logic in Strangecoin is broken and exclusion is the only way to run a succesful business." Again, we saw a disagreement between human sentiment ("be nice to your friends", "hire the best man for the job", "deposit your paycheck into a joint account") and libertarian-rational behaviour ("ditch your friends", "hire your brother-in-law", "use a Swiss account just in case you suddenly get divorced"). To reiterate - the "sentimental human relationship are not congruent with economic relationships" is already a thing in the real world. "Sentimental human relationships are not congruent with digital network relationships" is also a thing (caveat: defriending someone on Facebook may instigate some real-world animosity). Neither of the italicized phrases is a fatal flaw in Strangecoin, because it does not claim to perfectly model human relationships. If Strangecoin fails to model monetary relationships (and I think it does) then it's useless as a currency - but it can still yield some insight into the way that people think about relationships wherein emotional investment is dissimilar to monetary investment.
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May 11, 2014 12:17
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 I see you have a new custom title. e: I like how your description of things weirdcoin can and can't do is a better defense of the thought experiment than fifty pages of eripsa's drivel. suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 12:21 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 12:19
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GulMadred posted:To reiterate - the "sentimental human relationship are not congruent with economic relationships" is already a thing in the real world. "Sentimental human relationships are not congruent with digital network relationships" is also a thing (caveat: defriending someone on Facebook may instigate some real-world animosity). Neither of the italicized phrases is a fatal flaw in Strangecoin, because it does not claim to perfectly model human relationships. If Strangecoin fails to model monetary relationships (and I think it does) then it's useless as a currency - but it can still yield some insight into the way that people think about relationships wherein emotional investment is dissimilar to monetary investment. The problem is, I legitimately don't believe that Eripsa has enough perspective on either emotional investment or monetary relationships to make anything of this. There are a lot of criticisms of Strangecoin, some of them mine, that could be equally pointed at our current economic system, but Eripsa honestly seems unfamiliar enough with those flaws and of how easily abused the current economic system that he has not be able to generalize those points. Hell, I was hoping to bait him into some acknowledgement that legal protections would need to exist in StrangeWorld with the example about Jews being unable to print their religious texts, and instead he expressed shock at the idea that Jews might be discriminated against. No recognition that child pornography has victims that should have legal recourse, but instead focusing on making it economically unfeasible (in a post-scarcity setting!) To spend this much time studying Philosophy and, hell, just using the Internet, and remain unaware of how awful huge groups of people has to be either purposeful ignorance or pathology. I don't think the awareness is there to use our criticisms of StrangeCoin to have a meta-discussion about the separation of emotional and monetary investment. Eripsa, I think that you are being badly hampered academically and personally by limited exposure to non-tech and non-philosophically-oriented settings. I'd love to see your enthusiasm tempered by the practical and pointed at some smaller, more concrete goals. Are you familiar with medical students' disease?
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May 11, 2014 12:50
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CheesyDog posted:The problem is, I legitimately don't believe that Eripsa has enough perspective on either emotional investment or monetary relationships to make anything of this. There are a lot of criticisms of Strangecoin, some of them mine, that could be equally pointed at our current economic system, but Eripsa honestly seems unfamiliar enough with those flaws and of how easily abused the current economic system that he has not be able to generalize those points. quote:Eripsa, I think that you are being badly hampered academically and personally by limited exposure to non-tech and non-philosophically-oriented settings. I'd love to see your enthusiasm tempered by the practical and pointed at some smaller, more concrete goals. I agree.
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May 11, 2014 14:04
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GulMadred posted:It wasn't intended as a takedown and it doesn't really require a point-by-point response. The post refers obliquely to a real-world phenemenon: we consider ourselves to be closely linked to our friends and family, yet by quanitifiable metrics (e.g. "hours per week spent in proximity to [x]" or "dollars exchanged with [x]" or "dollar value of services rendered to [x]") a simple analysis might indicate that a person is more closely linked to their job, co-worker, client, or business, than they are to their spouse. Strangecoin just forces the participants to acknowledge and confront this weird imbalance, and then do something about it (e.g. sever the "Coupling transaction" while still remaining married and raising children and cohabitating and loving and so on, or do the Hank Rearden thing and elevate their family to an unearned life of luxury and power). It seems to me, though, that insomuch as Strangecoin's purpose (I don't have the spec in front of me so I might be misremembering) is to reinvent the economy to fit more in line with the way humans ~want to act~ rather than the way our current economic system ~forces us to act~, it doesn't seem to be doing a great job of it. This may not clash with Eripsa's "vision," whatever in the world that is, but it makes me wonder what the point of Strangecoin is when it changes everything and very little all at the same time.
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May 11, 2014 14:20
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GulMadred posted:It wasn't intended as a takedown and it doesn't really require a point-by-point response. The post refers obliquely to a real-world phenemenon: we consider ourselves to be closely linked to our friends and family, yet by quanitifiable metrics (e.g. "hours per week spent in proximity to [x]" or "dollars exchanged with [x]" or "dollar value of services rendered to [x]") a simple analysis might indicate that a person is more closely linked to their job, co-worker, client, or business, than they are to their spouse. Strangecoin just forces the participants to acknowledge and confront this weird imbalance, and then do something about it (e.g. sever the "Coupling transaction" while still remaining married and raising children and cohabitating and loving and so on, or do the Hank Rearden thing and elevate their family to an unearned life of luxury and power). Yeah I didn't mean I wanted him to attempt a point-by-point refutation of everything in your post. I was looking for something like this post you just made, except from him to see how he's intending to deal with those types of relationships. This really is a lot clearer and easier to understand than anything I remember Eripsa posting, though!
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May 11, 2014 14:30
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MeramJert posted:Yeah I didn't mean I wanted him to attempt a point-by-point refutation of everything in your post. I was looking for something like this post you just made, except from him to see how he's intending to deal with those types of relationships. This really is a lot clearer and easier to understand than anything I remember Eripsa posting, though! Yeah, but that would assume Eripsa knows what he is talking about (protip: if you know what you are talking about, then you are able to explain it without getting lost in ten pages of circular reasoning)
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May 11, 2014 14:45
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Are we still doing comic edits?
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May 11, 2014 14:49
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May 11, 2014 15:11
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Who What Now posted:Are we still doing comic edits?  This thread taught me the word "architectonic." Architectonic contains three comedy K sounds. It is therefore a funny word. This is not subject to debate. I was going to do a
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May 11, 2014 15:14
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I love how GulMadred gives a cogent discussion of the arguments in these threads, and everyone's response is "well it don't make sense when Eripsa says it". You are all so blind with rage it's hilarious. quote:This whole thing was addressed somewhere around page 20 of the original thread, when we were talking about nepotism. People pointed out that closely-linked subnetworks might nepotistically favour members over non-members (regardless of whether there was any consanguineal or ethnic or political affinity within the subnet - this was a mathematical argument). Eripsa eventually conceded the point, asserting that Strangecoin wouldn't actually solve every problem, but that it would at least make them visible. The only correction I'd make to GulMadred's post is with is memory of the now deleted thread. I raised the case of nepotism voluntarily as a primary example of the sort of connections that would be revealed; this wasn't a concession on my part, this was up front a motivating example. This should be clear from all the discussion of ants and caste systems too. It's frustrating that I'm biting so many bullets (about caste systems, about the biases in human social networking) in order to maintain a consistent view, when the view is going completely unrecognized and biting bullets just confuses people. People are literally referring to the possibility of discrimination as a criticism of my network, as if I've never considered the possibility, when in fact the drive to discriminate is baked right into the examples I'm using. I'll also say that this kind of extended discussion of nepotism, caste organization, and so on is mostly absent from Doctorow's whuffies. I think fishmech said that his version was more thought out, but that's strange considering the extensive discussion we've had about these sorts of organizational dynamics, which don't really appear at all in Doctorow's stories. For Doctorow, whuffies are a trustworthy guide to genuine reputation; on my scheme, Strangecoin is a guide to the selfish realities of one's self-organized nepotistic network. The fact that I'd bite this bullet alone shows that I've put more thought into how the system would work.
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May 11, 2014 15:41
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RealityApologist posted:I love how GulMadred gives a cogent discussion of the arguments in these threads, and everyone's response is "well it don't make sense when Eripsa says it". You are all so blind with rage it's hilarious. Do you notice his (severe) critiques or do you just blow past that on your way to desperate self-validation? quote:The only correction I'd make to GulMadred's post is with is memory of the now deleted thread. So you'd agree with this bit? quote:the pricing logic in Strangecoin is broken and exclusion is the only way to run a succesful business." and this bit? quote:If Strangecoin fails to model monetary relationships (and I think it does) then it's useless as a currency And again, in that game you set up as simplified Strangecoin: Why would anyone ever make a move?
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May 11, 2014 15:45
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RealityApologist posted:I love how GulMadred gives a cogent discussion of the arguments in these threads, and everyone's response is "well it don't make sense when Eripsa says it". You are all so blind with rage it's hilarious. It't the literal truth, moron. Just because somebody else says what you're trying to say doesn't mean you said it or get to take credit for it.
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May 11, 2014 15:51
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RealityApologist posted:It's frustrating that I'm biting so many bullets (about caste systems, about the biases in human social networking) in order to maintain a consistent view, when the view is going completely unrecognized and biting bullets just confuses people. People are literally referring to the possibility of discrimination as a criticism of my network, as if I've never considered the possibility, when in fact the drive to discriminate is baked right into the examples I'm using. Guys, don't you see, my idea is consistently bad, which makes it good!
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May 11, 2014 15:52
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I still don't understand how you can argue so earnestly that discrimination is a good thing when literally all of human history proves otherwise. The power of ~~<3networks<3~~ isn't going to change the fundamental problems with mankind.
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May 11, 2014 15:55
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Why don't people appreciate that I have formally endorsed (ha, ha) the ability to systemically lock people out of the economy? Biting bullets is typically viewed as a bad thing, you nimrod - you are getting shot. Again, your grasp of analogy is pathetic.
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May 11, 2014 15:58
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May 11, 2014 16:00
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Obdicut posted:So you'd agree with this bit? Well, yes the spec is broken, and yes I've expressed interest in revising the spec to fit the Cantorcoin alternative. But since people are still expressing confusion and cluelessness over the basic content of the proposal no one's really bothered to discuss how these things might be corrected. I'm still dealing with idiots asking questions like "but why?!?!" quote:and this bit? I'm not sure what it means to "fail to model monetary relationships". I've described situations where reflection on the flow of currency is used for making decisions about which networks to engage. This doesn't really look much like a "payment" on traditional currency, sure, and the logic of pricing and so on is completely different. I'm less concerned with whether it works as a currency in the economic sense, than whether it can be used for organizing purposes in exactly the sense GulMadred describes. Since his posts is working through the implications for social organization on that would result from a network like Strangecoin, he's showing how it would do exactly the sort of organizing work I've been describing. RealityApologist fucked around with this message at 16:14 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 16:03
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RealityApologist posted:Well, yes the spec is broken, and yes I've expressed interest in revising the spec to fit the Cantorcoin alternative. And expressing interest is good enough! Step into the cloud future. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFgXGw_kXpc
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May 11, 2014 16:09
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Who What Now posted:I still don't understand how you can argue so earnestly that discrimination is a good thing when literally all of human history proves otherwise. The power of ~~<3networks<3~~ isn't going to change the fundamental problems with mankind. I'm not saying discrimination is a good thing. I'm saying that it's part of how human communities organize. People are objecting to my view because it results in discrimination; they are concluding from this feature of the network that I've not thought through the implications. In fact, these are implications of the view that I raised directly, showing that not only have I considered the possibility but its a central component to the design. That doesn't make it a good thing, that's me biting the bullet of recognizing that this is how human organization works. Now, in Strangecoindia people are encouraged to discriminate based on network structure-- not race or gender or other features typically used for discrimination. Not that those kinds of discrimination wont happen, but they aren't the kind that drive organization on Strangecoin network. The stronger kind of discrimination in strangecoindia has to do with nepotism, celebrity, and other forms of preferential attachment. If we want to talk about discrimination, those are the interesting features to consider; they're the features motivating GulMadred's discussion, for instance. But people in this thread see discrimination and immediately turn into babbling idiots and start comparing strangecoin to the holocaust.
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May 11, 2014 16:13
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RealityApologist posted:
That would also be broken: the problems are fundamental. quote:But since people are still expressing confusion and cluelessness over the basic content of the proposal no one's really bothered to discuss how these things might be corrected. I'm still dealing with idiots asking questions like "but why?!?!" It's not anybody else's responsibility. It's yours. And nobody else will try because, as I said, your system is just fundamentally broken. quote:I'm not sure what it means to "fail to model monetary relationships". I've described situations where reflection on the flow of currency is used for making decisions about which networks to engage. This doesn't really look much like a "payment" on traditional currency, sure, and the logic of pricing and so on is completely different. So when you said the other thing was the only thing in his post you'd correct, that wasn't exactly true. quote:I'm less concerned with whether it works as a currency in the economic sense, than whether it can be used for organizing purposes in exactly the sense GulMadred describes. Since his posts is working through the implications for social organization on that would result from a network like Strangecoin, he's showing how it would do exactly the sort of organizing work I've been describing. Why did you call it a currency, and no, he's not showing it would do the 'organizing work', what he said is: "it can still yield some insight into the way that people think about relationships wherein emotional investment is dissimilar to monetary investment." That's not doing any work at organization. It's saying we could observe how people act under these arbitrary weirdo rules, and then derive some information about how people act in general. The same would be true of any arbitrary system with any space between economic and emotional investment. RealityApologist posted:I'm not saying discrimination is a good thing. I'm saying that it's part of how human communities organize. People are objecting to my view because it results in discrimination; they are concluding from this feature of the network that I've not thought through the implications. But it's not a binary factor: Strangecoin (giving you the benefit of the doubt that it functions at all, which it doesn't, it's just fundamentally broken) rewards people for discrimination and creates completely unnecessary, arbitrary discrimination (selling burgers only to people with a total of 2 coins of endorsement for the transaction) which benefits nobody, and only makes life harder and more aggravating for everyone. There is nothing achieved, everything is harder, everyone is unhappier. Hey, you've been dodging this question for a bit, have a whack at it; In that little Strangecoin came you ginned up, why would anyone ever make a move vs. not making a move? Obdicut fucked around with this message at 16:24 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 16:21
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No, we see that discrimination is encouraged and realize that people are almost never rational actors, and they absolutely will discriminate against race, sexual orientation, and gender far more often than they discriminate against "network status". Or, even worse, they will do so to an extent that having low network status will become synonymous with being a racial, gender, or sexual minority because of the automatic and systemic discrimination. And we know this will happen because it's happening right now, at this very moment! That's what you're ignoring.
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May 11, 2014 16:23
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Who What Now posted:No, we see that discrimination is encouraged and realize that people are almost never rational actors, and they absolutely will discriminate against race, sexual orientation, and gender far more often than they discriminate against "network status". Or, even worse, they will do so to an extent that having low network status will become synonymous with being a racial, gender, or sexual minority because of the automatic and systemic discrimination. And we know this will happen because it's happening right now, at this very moment! If one's primary network of relationships are based largely on family and friend affiliations, and one's wealth is based on those networks of affiliations, then there's no way to systematically discriminate against any race or gender, because most racial and gender minorities have friends and family. The way to get rich in strangecoin is to grow one's network, and there's absolutely nothing in the system preventing anyone (even minorities) from doing that. Perhaps in an already deeply segregated society, Strangecoin would make it hard to reach outside the separate communities to forge inter-organizing relations. But in a society that is moving towards integration, then there are lots of dimensions of overlap between otherwise disparate communities, and forming connections becomes much easier. Unless there's a specific argument showing that society is becoming less integrated and more racially segregated, there's no reason to think these trends suddenly reverse under strangecoin. In fact, in strangecoin it's in people's interest to find these sorts of intercommunity connections and strengthen them. If anything, strangecoin assists in the project of integration. The people who get hosed over in Strangecoinland are the people who have no friends or family and are incapable of forming the relationships necessary to build them. These are mostly going to be people with severe mental and personality disorders. We can talk about how to deal with this in Strangecoinland, but that's a much different case than discrimination against Jews or whatever. Since people are only raising objections about racial discrimination, I take this as an indication that people aren't understanding the proposal being offered.
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May 11, 2014 16:39
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Wait, are you seriously saying "Sure, people with mental disorders are likely to be harshly discriminated against, but that's ok because there aren't very many of them, so why worry about it right now?" And the reason we are becoming more of an integrated society because we are making it much, much harder to discriminate in absolutely any form. It is illegal for businesses to discriminate based on minority status. And you're saying we should throw that out and just rely on people being rational actors when they clearly are not. If you encourage people to discriminate for "good" reasons then they will also discriminate for bad reasons, and they will do this even if it would personally make their own lives worse. It's called crab mentality. You want people to be integers in an equation you can put in a certain order to get a certain outcome. But it doesn't work like that, and we've spent I don't even know how many pages anymore trying to tell you that. -edit- For clarity. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 16:51 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 16:49
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RealityApologist posted:Now, in Strangecoindia people are encouraged to discriminate based on network structure-- not race or gender or other features typically used for discrimination. Not that those kinds of discrimination wont happen, but they aren't the kind that drive organization on Strangecoin network. The stronger kind of discrimination in strangecoindia has to do with nepotism, celebrity, and other forms of preferential attachment. If we want to talk about discrimination, those are the interesting features to consider; they're the features motivating GulMadred's discussion, for instance. Can you show that the forms of discrimination endorsed by Strangecoin wouldn't also correspond to racial or class discrimination or the like? Xelkelvos fucked around with this message at 16:53 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 16:51
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Eripsa, I know you accused me of "not following the thread" and appealing to an unstated model from the first thread, but you never fleshed out what part of the rules make it so a person at the balance cap suddenly lacks endorsements on their payments. Not payments they're endorsing, not their endorsed's payments (who is conveniently at 0 balance and much much easier to discuss), not anything you decided to talk about last time I brought this contradiction up. Their income going to TUA is completely disconnected from their endorser's payments, meaning either the fiction is in error or there are unstated rules in the spec when dealing with TUA. Hitting the balance cap shouldn't be a visible event to people who have merely Endorsed me, they're dealing with outgoing coins instead of the incoming. I'm only focusing so hard on this because it's the one time an actual consequence was given for hitting the balance cap. It's a very far reaching rule if any TUA tx poisons endorsements for that cycle, since a generous definition makes it propagate out and poison a few more people than the one actually hitting a boundary condition. Everything else is said in the presumed "well of course hitting the cap is undesirable". SedanChair posted:Just because somebody else says what you're trying to say doesn't mean you said it or get to take credit for it.
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May 11, 2014 16:53
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Who What Now posted:And the reason we are becoming more of an integrated society because we are making it much, much harder to discriminate in absolutely any form. It is illegal for businesses to discriminate based on minority status. And you're saying we should throw that out and just rely on people being rational actors when they clearly are not. If you encourage people to discriminate for "good" reasons then they will also discriminate for bad reasons, and they will do this even if it would personally make their own lives worse. It's called crab mentality. You want people to be integers in an equation you can put in a certain order to get a certain outcome. But it doesn't work like that, and we've spent I don't even know how many pages anymore trying to tell you that. To add to this, integration is a very slow progress that's starting to slide already absent institutional forces mandating it. Neighborhood integration is going very slowly if at all. As bussing ends and school choice is increasingly implemented, schools are becoming more segregated as well. It's all well and good to say the trend of history is toward equality, but that's not because our ~~networks~~ naturally bend that way. Left to their own devices, humans are really loving good at discriminating. Reinforcing that bias with ~~networks~~ seems likely to ensure permanent second-class citizenship for POC/other minorities.
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May 11, 2014 16:59
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RealityApologist posted:If one's primary network of relationships are based largely on family and friend affiliations, and one's wealth is based on those networks of affiliations, then there's no way to systematically discriminate against any race or gender, because most racial and gender minorities have friends and family. You see, Jews have friends and family so there's no way to discriminate against them. This is wrong. You loving idiot. quote:The way to get rich in strangecoin is to grow one's network Prove it. Don't write fiction about it, don't assume things out of thin air, etc. Prove that growing a network makes you richer than taking all comers. you can't, because that's not how a currency works quote:, and there's absolutely nothing in the system preventing anyone (even minorities) from doing that. Perhaps in an already deeply segregated society, Strangecoin would make it hard to reach outside the separate communities to forge inter-organizing relations. But in a society that is moving towards integration, then there are lots of dimensions of overlap between otherwise disparate communities, and forming connections becomes much easier. Unless there's a specific argument showing that society is becoming less integrated and more racially segregated, there's no reason to think these trends suddenly reverse under strangecoin. In fact, in strangecoin it's in people's interest to find these sorts of intercommunity connections and strengthen them. If anything, strangecoin assists in the project of integration. There is every reason to think that strangecoin reverses these trends because that's baked into your half-assed idea in the first place. Strangecoin rewards shunning certain groups of people over others, ergo, they will be shunned according to the pre-existing biases of 6 billion human beings. You loving idiot. Also, I wish I could just quote every post from the other thread back at you but I do remember a certain "ITT we are an 18 year old girl whose last transaction was with Planned Parenthood" post you never replied to because you are a loving idiot that shuns posts you don't like. quote:The people who get hosed over in Strangecoinland are the people who have no friends or family and are incapable of forming the relationships necessary to build them. These are mostly going to be people with severe mental and personality disorders. We can talk about how to deal with this in Strangecoinland, but that's a much different case than discrimination against Jews or whatever. Since people are only raising objections about racial discrimination, I take this as an indication that people aren't understanding the proposal being offered. You have literally just proposed shunning the mentally disabled but don't see how that applies to a minority group because that's different. You loving idiot.
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May 11, 2014 17:01
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To everyone else, I sorta understand the ant thing. Individual actors can defy expectation or analysis, but zoomed out aggregate pictures of humans can make them look pretty simple. Consider the environment of an international airport. 2+ million people filtering through hundreds of hallways and rooms every day. The place can be structured with the knowledge of "24 gates need to take in international people who need to re-clear security, 12 go to customs," etc. and in use planes who need a particular flavor of gate are directed there. For the individuals to navigate these hundreds of hallways, signage is directed and they take small cues from slips of paper in hand to direct themselves around. In that kind of artificial environment with those strange constraints, the flow of humans doesn't have a lot of complexity over ants. w/r/t strangecoin, the entire thing goes off the rails even with good faith homo economicus so giving him bait to grab and spew thousands of unrelated words is distracting.
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May 11, 2014 17:02
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I have some relatives that are hardline Southern Baptists who refuse to use credit cards or participate in banking because it is the Mark of the Beast. Explain to me how this religious group will be able to participate in StrangeWorld.
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May 11, 2014 17:05
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RealityApologist posted:The stronger kind of discrimination in strangecoindia has to do with nepotism, celebrity, and other forms of preferential attachment. gee how does nepotism translate to underprivileged social classes being unable to climb through social strata it's almost like you are a total, utter fool
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May 11, 2014 17:05
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ITT we decide the money of Milhouse Windsor IV is better than anyone else's and call this a feature
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May 11, 2014 17:07
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Adar posted:ITT we decide the money of Milhouse Windsor IV is better than anyone else's and call this a feature Don't worry poor kids can just sell some of their parents' stock to pay for their college apartment
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May 11, 2014 17:10
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ITT we change the price we pay for a hamburger by adding an extra thousand people to our GoogleFacebook (but they have to be the right kind of people; wouldn't want anyone with a name like Aaliyah in the mix)
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May 11, 2014 17:10
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ITT we have bad political opinions, get into a car accident, require lifesaving medication and immediately
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May 11, 2014 17:11
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