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WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

evilweasel posted:

The issue is that this isn't actually a constitutional case. The Supreme Court has already held that the 1st Amendment gives you very few rights to challenge a generally applicable law on the basis that as applied to you it violates your 1st Amendment rights. The test case was a peyote ban: the drug wasn't banned to interfere in Native American religious ceremonies and was just a general drug ban, they argued that it violated their religious freedom to ban a drug they needed for their religion, and lost.

Congress responded by passing the RFRA which essentially changes all past and future laws and regulations (at the time it included states, that part was held to be unconstitutional) to essentially create a religious exception: if a law substantially burdens a person's exercise of religion then it doesn't apply to them unless the law (1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and
(2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.

This works for past laws because it simply amends them to comply, and for future laws it creates a presumption they have this silent exception unless they explicitly state they don't (because any future Congress can't be bound just by a law).

So yes, the government is absolutely free to make this regulation under the Constitution. It's an issue of if they can do this under the RFRA, because Obamacare didn't exempt itself from the RFRA.

The issue I have with the Circuit Court's reasoning is, of course, that even assuming that a closely-held company blah blah blah owners' rights under RFRA, I don't think they met the substantial burden required. Like, yeah, sure, it's burdensome, but it's surely not substantial due to the numerous ways the owners can still express their religious disapproval of whatever.

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WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

The Entire Universe posted:

I'm sort of hoping for a highly narrow ruling on CLS in absence of some middle road that calls bullshit on some of the more groan-inducing software/design patents. Software patents have a place, but the status quo is a drat plague on innovation lest someone independently design an intuitive UI element in an app and get atomized by the big fish because once you put an obvious and prior action on a touchscreen it loses all relevance and relation to physical mechanisms.

The Supreme Court punted in Bilski to begin with (it's a conclusion without any reasoning whatsoever), which didn't help matters much.

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

Chuu posted:

You could find literally tens of thousands of practitioners that could testify that the current level of disclosure in patents forces undue experimentation; which hopefully would lead them to the right place.

Really, a big part of the problem here is cultural and I'm not sure how to fix that. If the patent office thought there really was a problem with the current software patent landscape they have so much leeway that they could start issuing rejections based on insufficient disclosure; and the amount of disclosure most people want to see in software patents would almost assuredly force more descriptive claims plus start bringing into play restriction practices [i.e. 1 invention/patent].

The problem is the patent office doesn't have a problem with the current level of disclosure or amount of detail in which inventions are described in the claims*; and the culture of the office means that getting examiners to actually apply these standards (which completely would break the factory-line-like path patents take from application to approval) would be shocking.

The patent office also needs to find a way to hire better people. When I worked there as an examiner I was straight out of college and the large majority of my coworkers started straight out of college as well. Now that I have many years of experience working in the field, I can say that there is absolutely no way that someone straight out of college has the background to determine what is and is not obvious to one of ordinary skill in the art; and the huge majority do not have enough experience to determine what is a necessary level of disclosure.

Considering applications are made on a prima facie basis, unless you fix the cultural issues, the system will always be a trainwreck.

*I don't think I can stress how big of a problem this is. Under the reasoning that the claims are all that matters in court to determine patentability; examiners are trained to pretty much ignore everything except what is claimed. The first thing an examiner will do when reading a patent is to read the claims s.t. what is disclosed does not bias one to what is claimed; and getting to the point where one can issue actions based solely on the abstract and claims is encouraged. The problem is while the claims are what the lawyers care about; the description is what the practitioner cares about.

The claims have to be both enabled and sufficiently described. Which is to say, the specification has to describe the invention with sufficient particularity to enable one of ordinary skill in the art to practice it. In patent software, the situation generally is that ideas are trivial to implement once described: the issue is coming up with the idea in the first place. Patents protect ideas not implementations, so software patents really are working as intended.

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

StarMagician posted:

Do the Supremes have anywhere close to the degree of technical expertise they would need to write a decision that would accomplish this?

No

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

Kalman posted:

Not to mention, patents actually aren't supposed to protect ideas, they're supposed to protect implementations. That's why when someone claims something functionally (by saying what a component does, rather than what it is) we limit them to the structures disclosed in the specification.

The problem is that examiners are far too willing to grant patents with functional claims without forcing those claims into the proper form (means plus function). That form has additional strictures and safeguards that are particularly useful for software patents.

Patents are supposed to protect ideas, but they can also protect implementations. It's the difference between functional claiming on the first hand and means-plus-function claiming on the other: a means-plus-function claim does require a disclosed algorithm; functional claiming does not. The difference is also in what's patentable: carrying out a known process by novel means is fairly simple to claim as means-plus-function with corresponding disclosure, but the claims only cover the disclosure and its structural equivalents.

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

FRINGE posted:

Make the use of private lawyers illegal in patent law.

Probably an unconstitutional deprivation of due process.

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3592957

Shut up about patents

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

FRINGE posted:

How did they defend that?

(Aside from the quiet cackle that it basically de-righted 2/3rds of the population with a barely-crafty excuse, and that privacy is a thorn in Obamas drone-loving side?)

They can only border search at borders and international airports http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6933260753627774699

WhiskeyJuvenile fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Jan 2, 2014

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo
Administrative law should be taught in high school.

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K-8FJ114kU

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

The Warszawa posted:

Doug Laycock at UVA is representing him now, but Holt was pro se through the trial and appellate courts.

And lost :smug:

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

twodot posted:

I don't think the judge said their facts were wrong

He totally did

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo
What about Kosher pizza places?

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

esquilax posted:

The tax advantages come because the benefit of the health insurance is not taxable to the employee. It costs the employer the same to give the employee a $10,000 health plan or a $10,000 bump in salary, but the $10,000 bump in salary would only provide ~$5,000 or $6,000 of benefit to the employee because they have to pay taxes on it.

Probably also benefits the employer, because they're not paying their share of taxes on it either, I don't think?

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

esquilax posted:

No issues with the rest of your post but the bolded portion is a poor interpretation that I hear a lot. They can't prevent employees from using "their compensation" on Plan B or any other contraceptive methods, or even an actual abortion. What they are doing is making sure it is not included in the health plan that they offer to the employee. If a company didn't cover Viagra or nose jobs under their health plan, you wouldn't say they are telling their employees how their compensation could be used, would you?

Yes?

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

esquilax posted:

Implicit in that statement is a moral judgement

No there isn't

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

quote:

Former lobbyist Jack Abramoff disagrees with the Supreme Court's April 2 ruling on campaign finance limits, which knocked down the limit donors can give to a political candidate.

"I don’t believe the [Supreme Court] Justices understand the connection between political money and corruption," he told HuffPost Live's Josh Zepps. "It seems that none of them were politicians and none of them were elected officials, so maybe they just don’t get it. To think that the conveying of money is not going to create a corrupt relationship, I think is naive at best."

Speaking as a former lobbyist who knows the tricks of the trade when it comes to swaying a politician in his favor, Abramoff conceded, "The legislative effort that needs to ensue... is to say: if you're a lobbyist or a special interest, you can't give or you can only give a de minimis amount. I don't think any other approach is going to work, at least through this Court, and I'm not certain anything else will work legislatively either."

Abramoff was eventually convicted and sent to prison for his work as a lobbyist, yet he noted that "99 percent" of what he did was legal. Looking back at his "lobbyist days," he highlighted ways to get around the current reforms. "If I wanted to give a meal to a Congressman right now, I couldn't buy them a meal, but if I declared the meal as a fundraiser, I could in fact give them a meal and then hand them $5,000 as a check," he said. "That, to Congress, is a way to reform the system. I mean it's hilarious in a certain respect, but it's quite not funny in terms of the future for the country."

Urging the Supreme Court Justices to reconsider their recent ruling, Abramoff said, "They've got to recognize that when a politician gets money in any amount from somebody who wants something back, that itself is bribery. That itself is corruption. They would never put up with it for themselves. They would never allow somebody who had a case in front of them to give them a campaign contribution or buy them dinner. Why in the world are they allowing it for politicians?"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/17/jack-abramoff-supreme-court-campaign-finance_n_5169510.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000013&ir=Politics

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo
Sotomayor is easily the best justice in the history of the country already, so Obama done good.

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo
If they pull another Bilski, no wonder the Federal Circuit does is own thing

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo
Also the Federal Circuit has a reputation for basically doing whatever the hell it wants and ignoring the Supreme Court.

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo
the future Sotomayor court will be tits

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo
you're forgetting when she gets reappointed by mecha-Clinton in neo-DC in 2033

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

AmiYumi posted:

Yes. And? It's not like ignoring/sleeping through them makes for better jurisprudence.

It certainly doesn't make for worse.

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

Kalman posted:

What, like the U.S. Reports, which are the authoritative final version and are a public publication of SCOTUS decisions?

The reason we have private publications is because the US reports take time to publish, not because there isn't a centralized public authoritative system.

Well, we do live in the 21st century, and the Supreme Court is more than welcome to, as head of the federal court system, establish its own electronic publication system bypassing the private reporters.

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo
Qualified immunity could be withdrawn by the state, because it exists as an extension of state immunity, which is waivable.

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo
Limelight doesn't make sense on the "a client sending and a server sending" patents where two people infringe together I guess?

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo
Dying for Madison's patent profits

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

Shifty Pony posted:

gently caress yes, Alice Corp got decided as Patent ineligible. Gonna read this one...

ahahahaha chaos reigns

e: wait, no it doesn't, scotus sucks again

WhiskeyJuvenile fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jun 19, 2014

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo
gently caress it I already rejected my first application under Alice Corp because I really don't have good art and our 101 guidance is still shot and this really shouldn't be patented even though it's the 4th continuation reciting basically the same invention as three issued patents but the law finally caught up.

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

Kalman posted:

It'll depend on the specifics of the patent, really - algorithm patents were already (theoretically) not allowed, but patents that use an algorithm to do some function (e.g., public key cryptography to exchange secured email) were and likely still will be fine. It was pretty much a status quo decision.

Preempting every practical application of an abstract idea

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo
Yeah the patent office doesn't look fondly on no-reference 103 rejections. I know; I've tried.

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo
I've failed sig twice because of poo poo like that so welp

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

evilweasel posted:

After some googling it appears that I was tricked by the marriage equality thread when Whisky Juvenile posting that without citing it and then didn't look closely when I found the source :argh:

:laugh:

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

Magres posted:

So just how bullshit is the ACA ruling? Like it sounds like a whole lot of bullshit, but someone in the USPol thread was saying that laws are normally drafted to read 'the state or federal government' and that this shouldn't have been possible but was because of a drafting issue :shrug:

Totally bullshit. It's a specious reading of the law that makes no sense given the statute as a whole, and you have to actually want ACA to fail in order to reach the conclusion that they did.

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

Kalman posted:

It should have been drafted more clearly. Of course, laws have drafting errors frequently and courts often correct for them. The point I was making in the other thread is that "State", in federal laws, typically does not mean the federal government. That said, the reading they took was contrary to the way you would normally interpret that provision for other reasons (eg language in other parts of the bill, logic) so it's an incorrect reading of the PPACA.

Agreed; I think the 4th Circuit concurrence is correct: the statute means that federal exchanges get the subsidies. However, even if that's wrong, the statute's at best ambiguous, and Chevron deference applies, which means that the IRS's determination that federal exchanges get the subsidies also wins the day. I don't see any way to get to the "this statute unambiguously says that only state exchanges get subsidized."

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

esquilax posted:

Section 1311 says how the individual states can establish an exchange, section 1321 talks about how the federal government can establish an exchange in a state if the state does not.

The government's arguments generally amount to reasons why a federal exchange established under section 1321 qualifies as "an Exchange established by the State under section 1311", by text or by context.

I personally think the government is right here but the other side's argument isn't as ridiculous as I thought during my initial reaction.

special snowflakes edition: it doesn't matter whether the other side's argument isn't ridiculous, because the fact that it's, in the plaintiff's best light, ambiguous, means that the IRS's interpretation of the statute controls because of Chevron deference

quote:

(1) "First, always, is the question whether Congress has directly spoken to the precise question at issue. If the intent of Congress is clear, that is the end of the matter; for the court as well as the agency must give effect to the unambiguously expressed intent of Congress."

"If the Court determines Congress has not directly addressed the precise question at issue, the court does not simply impose its own construction of the statute . . . Rather,

(2) [I]f the statute is silent or ambiguous with respect to the specific question, the issue for the court is whether the agency's answer is based on a permissible construction of the statute." Chevron U.S.A. v. NRDC, 467 U.S. 837, 842–843 (1984).

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo
A conviction of murder likely does preclude a lesser conviction under double jeopardy as a lesser included offense but it's good to the extent that if the murder conviction is thrown out, the manslaughter conviction remains.

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

ActusRhesus posted:

that's a straw man and you know it. Look, the fact of the matter is, I *am* pro choice. However, arguments that try to suggest abortion is a minor trifle rather that what it is: A medical procedure with significant impact on the woman's body, cheapen the overall cause. You want to win this argument, acknowledge there *is* a state interest in regulating physicians and argue that in the overall balance, these restrictions go too far. and the goals can be achieved through less restrictive means.

Tattooing is a medical procedure with significant impact on a woman's body, but you can be drunk

WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

ActusRhesus posted:

You're right. The dockets of the circuit courts and supreme court are so light, and there are so few petitions for cert that they just hear every case that comes across their desk. There's no scrutiny at all before a case is granted cert. In fact, it's done by coin flip.

The Supreme Court's docket is objectively historically low

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WhiskeyJuvenile
Feb 15, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

Incidentally, McAlister was referring to what the AMA calls a D&E, not a D&X.

Incidentally, the AMA does not support banning D&X, but leaves it up to the doctor's discretion.

Incidentally, the most stringent regulation that could be said to be supported by the AMA statement would be that a doctor performing a D&X in contravention of standards of good medical practice should face some sort of liability.

Incidentally, gently caress you.

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