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MassRafTer, have you read Karl Stern's pdf "The pioneers of wrestling?"
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Dec 16, 2013 03:12
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| # ? May 5, 2024 16:58 |
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mariooncrack posted:MassRafTer, have you read Karl Stern's pdf "The pioneers of wrestling?" A good deal of the early information came from that.
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Dec 16, 2013 03:15
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On the Dave and Bryan show that was just uploaded Dave goes on a tangent and gives a nice rundown on the NWA and WWWF titles in the '60s since he was annoyed by Vince's revisionist history on the last PPV. Some interesting info on the Rio "tournament" and a proposed Bruno/Thesz unification match I had no clue about. Thauros fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Dec 16, 2013 |
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Dec 16, 2013 10:24
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I find it hilarious that Ali essentially goes "I don't wanna do the job" and then gets into a shoot fight, which involves Inoki laying on his back and kicking the crap out of him. If anything, that's more of a joke.
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Dec 16, 2013 17:32
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There's currently a poll on wo/f4w asking "Who is the second greatest pro wrestling promoter of all time". The choices are: code:
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Dec 17, 2013 18:50
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Anyone that would vote for Toots Mondt is voting for Sandow or Vince Sr., I think.
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Dec 17, 2013 18:52
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Thauros posted:There's currently a poll on wo/f4w asking "Who is the second greatest pro wrestling promoter of all time". I'm really tempted to vote Jerry Jarrett here, TNA's failure aside. He was insanely successful and a big part of why Memphis did so well. He also, as has been pointed out on DVDVR, probably the only non-wrestler to make money off of TNA.
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Dec 17, 2013 19:11
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El Gallinero Gros posted:I'm really tempted to vote Jerry Jarrett here, TNA's failure aside. He was insanely successful and a big part of why Memphis did so well. He also, as has been pointed out on DVDVR, probably the only non-wrestler to make money off of TNA. How long was he promoting Memphis? I know Memphis outlasted all of the other territories but I don't know when he stopped promoting it. I mean being able to survive the WWF takeover of the 80's means something, right?
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Dec 18, 2013 03:54
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mariooncrack posted:How long was he promoting Memphis? I know Memphis outlasted all of the other territories but I don't know when he stopped promoting it. I mean being able to survive the WWF takeover of the 80's means something, right? He started in 1965 and went through their most successful years as a co-promoter with Lawler (and Fargo, I think). I believe Lawler bought him out in the late 80's or very early 90's. The writing was on the wall at that point. I really want a definitive book about Memphis wrestling. Memphis Heat is a cool film but I want something more in depth. El Gallinero Gros fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Dec 18, 2013 |
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Dec 18, 2013 17:45
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Speaking of Memphis, could someone elaborate on how a 2007 Show/Hogan match killed Memphis Wrestling forever because I seriously can't even parse that.
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Dec 19, 2013 15:24
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projecthalaxy posted:Speaking of Memphis, could someone elaborate on how a 2007 Show/Hogan match killed Memphis Wrestling forever because I seriously can't even parse that. Because it didn't draw and both asked for too much money.
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Dec 19, 2013 15:33
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If I remember the story right: It was originally supposed to be Hogan vs. Lawler. That sold so well they had to upgrade the venue. Then WWE found out what was up and pulled Lawler. They hyped Paul Wight as the replacement. crazy refunds were issued and thus you get 700 people in a 20000 seat arena and everyone involved lost their shirts.
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Dec 19, 2013 17:05
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coconono posted:and thus you get 700 people in a 20000 seat arena and everyone involved lost their shirts.
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Dec 19, 2013 20:01
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Endorph posted:Including the audience? It's Memphis, most people came topless anyway.
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Dec 19, 2013 22:46
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coconono posted:If I remember the story right: So all the "Hogan couldn't draw outside WWE - look at his Memphis match with Big Show" talk is unwarranted since WWE killed the original matchup with Lawler. That would have been the biggest non-WWE crowd in North America since WCW, right?
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Dec 20, 2013 00:46
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coconono posted:If I remember the story right: I'm curious as to what the original planned finish would've been. I mean, obviously Hogan wouldn't have lost, but while Lawler has demonstrated many times he's willing to do business with anyone I can't imagine why he would agree to lose clean in Memphis to Hogan.
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Dec 20, 2013 01:00
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They moved from the Mid-South Coliseum to the FedEx Forum because the former building wasn't in decent enough shape to host an event, it wasn't because of building size. By the time WWE pulled Lawler, tickets weren't moving well and it was already clear the show was going to be a disaster, although with Lawler they probably draw 5000 paid instead of 2500 or whatever the real number was (they papered a lot too). The real surprise was that Hogan worked a match in front of a mostly empty building at all, but I am pretty sure it ended up being a reality show related thing.
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Dec 20, 2013 01:27
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What most people around the area consider to be "Real Memphis Wrestling" died in 1997 with the USWA. Power Pro Wrestling was alright, but it was a shell of what had come before and eventually just became a poor WWE developmental area until WWE left and then it kind of morphed into MCW. Memphis Championship Wrestling was largely terrible and I never cared for it all. It was run by I believe Terry Golden who got his start running a terrible (loving awful) garbage promotion in the area called Kick rear end Wrestling. It was the worst garbage ECW ripoff poo poo that probably existed at the time. It got local air time on some stupid channel I can't remember the name of. One of those odd channels you get with rabbit ear antennas. But MCW was pretty bad, even though a it did produce a few decent things before it ended. Then just Memphis Wrestling came into being and was run by Corey Maclin (who was recently killed in a car accident) and I think that was the company the Hogan and Big Show killed.
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Dec 20, 2013 01:40
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Deadpool posted:What most people around the area consider to be "Real Memphis Wrestling" died in 1997 with the USWA. Power Pro Wrestling was alright, but it was a shell of what had come before and eventually just became a poor WWE developmental area until WWE left and then it kind of morphed into MCW. Memphis Championship Wrestling was largely terrible and I never cared for it all. It was run by I believe Terry Golden who got his start running a terrible (loving awful) garbage promotion in the area called Kick rear end Wrestling. It was the worst garbage ECW ripoff poo poo that probably existed at the time. It got local air time on some stupid channel I can't remember the name of. One of those odd channels you get with rabbit ear antennas. But MCW was pretty bad, even though a it did produce a few decent things before it ended. Then just Memphis Wrestling came into being and was run by Corey Maclin (who was recently killed in a car accident) and I think that was the company the Hogan and Big Show killed. The one Maclin did also did a big tag match between Lawler and Jimmy Hart (which, if you know Mempho history, is a weird pairing), vs Maclin and Terry Funk. Funk cut promos from his ranch and later transcribed them in his book. The promos were definitely good.
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Dec 20, 2013 01:48
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Lawler and Hart isn't that weird a pairing. They had their battles in CWA of course but everyone knew they were good friends and all. They went to school together (my father went to the same school with them at the same time) so the pairing wasn't really that weird.
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Dec 20, 2013 01:54
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EugeneJ posted:So all the "Hogan couldn't draw outside WWE - look at his Memphis match with Big Show" talk is unwarranted since WWE killed the original matchup with Lawler. How is it unwarranted? They did a full build to the match and it was going to launch a nationwide tour with Hogan vs Wight matches. If Hogan can't draw in Memphis without Lawler, that is an indictment of Hogan. It flopped so hard they had to cancel all of their plans and then years later bring it back as the Hulkamania tour down under, which also flopped in the one country that was primed for a Hogan tour.
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Dec 20, 2013 04:05
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I can't imagine how terrible Hogan vs Wight match in 2007 must have been. It was garbage back in WCW, when Show was actually sort of mobile and Hogan wasn't *completely* rundown. The only positive change since WCW would be that Show isn't green as poo poo anymore, and I doubt that veteran ring general Big Show could carry them to a five star classic.
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Dec 20, 2013 04:10
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Endorph posted:I can't imagine how terrible Hogan vs Wight match in 2007 must have been. It was garbage back in WCW, when Show was actually sort of mobile and Hogan wasn't *completely* rundown. The only positive change since WCW would be that Show isn't green as poo poo anymore, and I doubt that veteran ring general Big Show could carry them to a five star classic. Imagine no more, the match aired nearly in full on Memphis TV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L88hQwA7Pks
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Dec 20, 2013 04:15
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jeffersonlives posted:Imagine no more, the match aired nearly in full on Memphis TV: EDIT: To be fair that wasn't nearly as tragic as I was expecting it to be. Endorph fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Dec 20, 2013 |
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Dec 20, 2013 04:17
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Endorph posted:I'm pretty sure Hogan and Andre once had this exact match, move for move. Their Halloween Havoc 95 match is very much in that mold.
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Dec 20, 2013 04:19
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MassRafTer posted:How is it unwarranted? They did a full build to the match and it was going to launch a nationwide tour with Hogan vs Wight matches. If Hogan can't draw in Memphis without Lawler, that is an indictment of Hogan. It flopped so hard they had to cancel all of their plans and then years later bring it back as the Hulkamania tour down under, which also flopped in the one country that was primed for a Hogan tour. If Jeff Hardy tomorrow announced the "2 Xtreme Tour" headlined by a match between himself and Mistico in Mexico City, tickets started selling well, but then a few weeks before the match Mistico pulled out and was replaced by John Morrison...what happens? Hogan obviously was going to a place where Lawler would be the draw and he could take credit for it. Still - he didn't plan on wrestling Big Show and you can't be surprised that matchup didn't draw in Memphis, especially after the town had been promised their hometown hero.
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Dec 20, 2013 04:27
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EugeneJ posted:If Jeff Hardy tomorrow announced the "2 Xtreme Tour" headlined by a match between himself and Mistico in Mexico City, tickets started selling well, but then a few weeks before the match Mistico pulled out and was replaced by John Morrison...what happens? Tickets weren't selling well, though. When Lawler pulled out they had sold like the first four rows and that was it, for a show that was scaled way cheaper than a WWE event, had a loaded undercard, and came with meet and greets and goodies and all kinds of poo poo. The refund story is also apocryphal, it was Maclin's bullshit line because he publicly claimed a few weeks out they had sold some absurd amount of tickets that was like quadruple the ultimate paid number. The show didn't draw at all and the show nuclear bombing pretty much crushed Hogan and Hart's longstanding dream of starting their own domestic touring group, though they did ultimately give it a go internationally years later.
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Dec 20, 2013 04:33
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I haven't seen the Memphis Heat documentary yet - does it get into the later promotions like Music City Wrestling and the PMG show, or does it just focus on 70s-80s?
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Dec 20, 2013 04:48
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Like I said for all intents and purposes Memphis Wrestling died in this area with the end of USWA. All the later promotions were relegated to television stations and times where few people even saw them. It's no wonder that show sold terribly, there was very little they could even do to advertise it given the almost complete lack of awareness of a wrestling presence in the area.
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Dec 20, 2013 05:02
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EugeneJ posted:If Jeff Hardy tomorrow announced the "2 Xtreme Tour" headlined by a match between himself and Mistico in Mexico City, tickets started selling well, but then a few weeks before the match Mistico pulled out and was replaced by John Morrison...what happens? If this happened they would sell virtually no tickets before the switch and then they'd be sued by Paco Alonso.
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Dec 20, 2013 05:04
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EugeneJ posted:I haven't seen the Memphis Heat documentary yet - does it get into the later promotions like Music City Wrestling and the PMG show, or does it just focus on 70s-80s?
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Dec 20, 2013 05:52
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Flat out stolen from Pro Wrestling Only (a borderline terrible board that occasionally has interesting stuff). This is about Outlaw promotions, which were territories that would try and take on established NWA sanctioned territories with the idea of running them out of towntamalie from PWO posted:
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Dec 20, 2013 17:50
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The IWA was pretty interesting and I should write some stuff about that. I was going to include it in the original OP but, laziness.
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Dec 20, 2013 19:58
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MassRafTer posted:The IWA was pretty interesting and I should write some stuff about that. I was going to include it in the original OP but, laziness. Terry Funk mentions in his book that Einhorn and a wrestler named Pedro Martinez tried to get IWA on TV in Amarillo, and that Funk shared a flight with Martinez, and warned him to keep his tapes out of Amarillo. Later, Martinez tried to accuse Funk of assault and used a picture of his inflamed testicle to try and get some money out of Funk. Didn't take, but what a shitbag.
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Dec 20, 2013 20:01
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 International Championship Wrestling, the IWA was the first promotion in the US to try to go national. You obviously had national promotions in other countries, even to some extent in North America. Grand Prix was based in Quebec, but their TV was broadcast nationwide, as was Celebrity Wrestling, Paul Vachon's follow up. That makes them at least as much of a national promotion as TNA! Anyway, Eddie Einhorn started IWA in 1975, you can see their TV opening here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr-cDm7bNBE The first TV taping was January 6th in Savannah GA, a city in between the regular circuits of GCW, Florida and MAW. The idea was to bring in national and international stars and run a major promotion with better talent, better TV on a bigger scale. That's not what ended up happening. Many of the wrestlers they planned to bring in fell through, or left very quickly. The promotion was built on the remnants of the NWF (the world title of which Inoki ended up with in an attempt to legitimize himself) with guys like Ladd, Baker and the Mongols, and offered contracts which enticed outside talent like Tarzan Tyler, Lawler, Mascaras, etc... Well, in theory it did. Many of these outside talents that were advertised never showed, like Tyler for instance. The IWA ended up concentrating its efforts in the Carolinas and New York market, which was probably the stupidest thing they could do. Crockett ran big shows up against theirs and Vince kept they relegated to small theaters and crappy stadiums. With some of their big name talent never really existing and an in ring product that frankly was about average, the group didn't have much to offer even if they could get into the big arenas. You can look at the videos online and see the production values were nothing special either. Einhorn lost half a million and quit by October. The group sort of stuck around and ran shows into 1976, but nothing of substance. One thing that strikes me with IWA and many ambitious outlaw or opposition groups is how quickly promotional wars sputter out in "North American" market. With Montreal you had Grand Prix and All Star engage in a red hot promotional war that created a huge boom period and within 3 years Grand Prix was dead with All Star to die soon after. Earlier promotional wars in Montreal saw one side die after a year or two. IWA was pretty ill conceived and was dead in a year. In almost every case you see these wars fought over not just fans, but venues. In Montreal you had All Star trying to keep Grand Prix out of the the Forum (and thus unable to get a license to promote in Montreal.) With the WWF vs anyone you have Vince keeping them out of MSG, New Haven and anywhere else he can. When Pro Wrestling USA started running the Meadowlands, Vince stopped to show them who is boss. Crockett and IWA wound up in court over Crockett trying to keep its venues exclusive. WWE to this day tries to have clauses in its contracts to keep competitors from running venues within a certain time frame of its shows. Hell, then there were the wars Vince fought with Crockett and Turner over PPV. Meanwhile in Japan the All Japan vs New Japan war lasted on even terms for nearly 30 years before All Japan started fading, CMLL vs AAA lasted for the better part of two decades (and CMLL isn't quite done yet.) Yes I know Mexico is part of North America, but it and Puerto Rico (another market with a long standing rivalry) aren't usually counted in the North American market. Meltzer has said many times recently that there usually isn't room for a #2 product in a market. Fans, at least in the US want to see the best. When Vince came to markets with a strong local promotion that put on a better product, he had trouble drawing in that city. When opposition groups popped up in cities, unless they could provide the best talent, they didn't survive. Even without groups like the NWA conspiring against "outlaws" it's really hard for any market to sustain a #2. When Grand Prix fought All Star, they didn't do so by presenting themselves as a second rate alternative, they brought in as many stars as they could. On top of the Vachons, Andre and Carpentier they poached the LeDucs from All Star, brought in tons of outside talent and became the hottest act in town. This forced All Star to do the same, and business was hot because both groups produced killer line ups to try and survive. Then when things cooled down, the fans didn't want to pay for a lesser product. Now, we're seeing that in the US on a national level.
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Dec 26, 2013 07:39
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MassRafTer posted:
The story of how Grand Prix eventually were able to run shows in the Forum is pretty amazing. Basically, there was a rumour flying around that Jean "Johnny" Rougeau (the Stu of that family, if you will) was sleeping with legendary Canadien captain Jean Beliveau's wife. Most believed it to be bullshit, but it bothered Beliveau (it got mainstream press coverage) that Rougeau did nothing to dissuade the rumours, and Paul Vachon knew this. So he went to Beliveau. The main reason Grad Prix couldn't get dates was that the Montreal Athletic Commission wouldn't allow them to run the Forum until they had confirmed dates, which they couldn't get unless they had had the license from the MAC that MRT mentioned, who blatantly favored All Star. Once Beliveau intervened, it was no longer a factor.
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Dec 26, 2013 17:08
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Here's some old clippings the National Treasure put in various Dragon Kings.   I bet that last one got your attention and then you realized who it was. There are some even more overtly racist ones I can post later.
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Jan 1, 2014 00:52
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MassRafTer posted:Here's some old clippings the National Treasure put in various Dragon Kings. A young Vince Russo discovers his passion.
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Jan 1, 2014 01:48
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watching a Chris Adams docu here: http://psp-tv.com/r/coconono little more of the guy who could have been here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Adams_(wrestler)
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Jan 1, 2014 02:04
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Are these Dragon King issues available with a subscription or do you have to buy the Stern Sticks? His newsletter iss listed as an option in the archives under the Observer and F4W, but I don't see any issues available. Those ads are incredible and I'd love to see more. Inoki (not even Antonio yet) labeled simply as "JAP GIANT". Was the KKK acronym for Killer Karl Kox intentional and part of the gimmick at all? In addition to changes in cultural sensitivity, wrestling adverts certainly were a lot wordier then.
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Jan 1, 2014 07:36
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