|
fire emblem and brain worms: a classic pairing
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2024 23:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 13:37 |
|
|
SyntheticPolygon posted:I think the only bad class might be Armor Knight? Roy, the 7 trio, and PoR Ike are stuck in some pretty bad classes (Ike has pretty good stats iirc at least), right?
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:01
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:I think it's neat when a class is part of a character's identity so it can be a cool part of them. Like I'd never use Tana if she was an archer probably but being a Pegasus knight gives me something to get attached to. Same with the Christmas cavaliers. Yeah, it definitely adds something to the character, which you lose when anyone can become that class. Erg posted:also: use the characters in bad classes anyways imo. A true tactician like Mark can make anything work Also true. You can have fun runs using "worse" classes, but really it's just about adapting your tactics to that one classes handicaps. Blue Labrador posted:That's also why I dislike it when games where give you tons of characters with special classes without making that a focal point. I felt this is what Triangle Strategy did and in that cast of 30 I was only never able to get traction out of 2 characters/classes. Some took more investment than others, but since you're encouraged to play through the game 4 times you can really discover every encounter in a different way. It does a great job of making everyone feel useful in some way shape or form. FE has big casts with only like 10 molds to fit them into. So you get duplicates, but that's why just run with your favorites unless luck really hates you.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:05
|
|
|
Blue Labrador posted:This is my biggest gripe with GBA emblem. I don't have the brain worm where I *have* to play optimally--in fact, I love playing with lovely units and reclasses--but it can feel pretty bad to have 80% of the game's 2nd half prepromotes just blow most of your early guys and girls out of the water. prepromotes in the gba games that join around the second half: FE6: Klein, Echidna, Bartre, Percival, Cecilia, Igrene, Garret, Douglas, Niime, Juno, Dayan, Yodel, Karel. Of these, only Percival and Niime are units I'd describe as better than most of the roster. FE7: Isadora, Hawkeye, Geitz, Pent, Louise, Karel, Harken, Jaffar, Vaida, Renault, Karla. Of these, only Hawkeye, Geitz, Pent, Harken, and Vaida are units I'd describe as better than most of the roster. FE8: theres only 6 mid-late game prepromotes and one of them is dozla, one of them is rennac, and one of them is syrene its really only FE7 where this complaint even kind of tracks
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:10
|
|
|
Bartre/Echidna aren't braindead like Milady and Percival, but they're still great and can easily be endgame ready with maybe a single stat booster, and Cecilia is an amazing utility unit after one unfortunate joining chapter. I still get your point but come on now lol
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:14
|
|
|
theres a difference between 'good' and 'invalidating the rest of the roster.' like do you want bartre and echidna to be bad???
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:16
|
|
|
The times I played FE7 and I almost never used Hawkeye because I didn't like his look and Dart's a pirate! And Rebecca's brother! I think of the prepromotes I only ever used Pent and Louise and Jaffar with any regularity. Vaida was pretty rad actually when I finally got around to using her.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:20
|
|
|
I liked Echidna's forging bonds storyline in Heroes where she convinced a bunch of horny dudes to help build houses for the poor.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:20
|
|
|
I feel like that's a bit uncharitable but yeah I'll admit to being hyperbolic. Semirelated, but I've turned a corner on Syrene. I used to think she was garbage, but now that I've messed around more with rescue chaining and the like I see a lot of good she brings utility wise.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:23
|
|
|
I used isadora heavily in my last run. Fe7 is piss easy
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:24
|
|
|
That is most certainly true.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:29
|
|
|
it's not pre-promotes specifically but the gap between the Random Dorkass (not to be confused with the random dorcas) and The Wyvern Rider(s) is at its largest in fe6, and it's not like fe6 lets you shower the Random Dorkass with favouritism the way engage (the only recent game in the series with a gap this large) does if you got into the series with three houses in particular it feels even more dramatic because that game's cast is dominated by units you get immediately and you have absolute, excessive amounts of freedom in what you do with them, and also the roster size is set up to never bench any of them unless you really want to i think what really exacerbates all of this is that fe6 also hands you a mountain of kaga-era Replacement Unit Theory units, so the new recruits that outshine the units you already had feel even more overwhelmingly superior than they already were. it's like if the four lategame recruits you got in engage were all as bad as bunet instead of being about as good as goldmary - that'd make the midgame recruits like pandreo and kagetsu feel even more absurd than they already are
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:30
|
|
|
fe6 genuinely has the best roster and unit balance in the series. all the bad units are funny bad and all the decent units usually have at least one instance where they're good or some niche they fulfill. it's miles ahead of three houses where everyone is either Generic Blob (bad) or Generic Blob (good)
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:31
|
|
|
units in three houses with a unique mechanical identity: Lysithea (scene missing)
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:32
|
|
|
yeah to be clear i think three houses is really not very good in this regard. there aren't any Generic Blobs (bad) because of how good the units are, but they're all Generic Blobs all the same. it's not necessarily a bad thing that literally anyone can promote to sniper and rely on its class bases to kill endgame fliers with a forged bow but it's at total odds with a bunch of other things going on in the game but i don't agree that fe6 is well balanced in the slightest. when the best armor knight in the game's achievements can be summed up as 'rescue dropped marcus on a fort in chapter 2' and there's more than one armor knight...
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:36
|
|
|
What FE has the best unit balance and why is it Thracia 776?
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:37
|
|
|
Blue Labrador posted:Roy, the 7 trio, and PoR Ike are stuck in some pretty bad classes (Ike has pretty good stats iirc at least), right? I meant bad more as in "unfun to use". FE is generally easy enough that weak classes can still contribute significantly, so that's never really been a problem imo.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:41
|
|
|
conquest and birthright have good unit balance but pretty bad class balance, and birthright's level curve is kind of a gigantic mess on purpose because it's the We Want To Let You Grind game. however, i can't discount the possibility that the existence of rev is making me think more positively of the other fates games' balance than they deserve
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:48
|
|
|
Fire Emblem thread, I have to apologize for getting my lore mixed up. Echidna didn't get a bunch of horny dudes to work for her in a forging bonds segment, it was in the Heroes 4koma.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:51
|
|
|
ungulateman posted:but i don't agree that fe6 is well balanced in the slightest. when the best armor knight in the game's achievements can be summed up as 'rescue dropped marcus on a fort in chapter 2' and there's more than one armor knight...
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 00:55
|
|
|
I think people tend to overemphasize long term, endgame use as the only thing that makes a unit worth using. If a unit is your 4th best combat unit in chapter 2 and starts slowly falling through the ranks until leaving your actively used party when a prepromote joins in chapter 12, that doesn't mean that they didn't contribute throughout that whole time that you deployed them. Hell, in some games, they may even have been one of your better combat units for the hardest part of the game.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 01:00
|
|
|
SyntheticPolygon posted:I meant bad more as in "unfun to use". FE is generally easy enough that weak classes can still contribute significantly, so that's never really been a problem imo. Oh yeah, in that case, I pick up what you're putting down lol. PoR Ike would've been even cooler if he got axes on promotion, but he's still dope without that. On a pretty much-unrelated note, I fell asleep watching this video talking about underrated RD units, and I think the guy who talks about Lyre makes a pretty solid point i.e. Lyre is still bad, but not at all bottom of the barrel, because Laguz in general have more utility and combat ability than people and fans like to prescribe them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElRYb9odjuU Blue Labrador fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Mar 3, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 01:21
|
|
|
Endorph posted:its not well balanced in terms of 'all the units are good' its well balanced in terms of 'being a fun video game' oh ok in that case fe6 still isnt well balanced in the slightest lmao
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 02:18
|
|
|
FE6 would be a fun video game if it weren't for the fact that I like dark magic too much and keep trying to train Sophia.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 03:31
|
|
|
I mean, Raigh’s right there if you want a dark mage to train, it’s not like Awakening where they just straight up give you a bad archer in Chapter 1 and a level 10 one in a paraloge with mid-lategame enemies.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 03:54
|
|
|
ungulateman posted:it's not pre-promotes specifically but the gap between the Random Dorkass (not to be confused with the random dorcas) and The Wyvern Rider(s) is at its largest in fe6, and it's not like fe6 lets you shower the Random Dorkass with favouritism the way engage (the only recent game in the series with a gap this large) does I think engage is actually pretty well balanced. it’s a lot easier for etie to contribute to the team and do something meaningful every turn than it was for rebecca. though maybe this is an unfair comparison bc engage is a lot more player-phase than the gba games were
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 06:48
|
|
|
Endorph posted:units in three houses with a unique mechanical identity: hey the lords have some unique mechanics to them. except dimitri who is just guy who punch hard
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 07:46
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:Fire Emblem thread, I have to apologize for getting my lore mixed up. Echidna didn't get a bunch of horny dudes to work for her in a forging bonds segment, it was in the Heroes 4koma.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 08:00
|
|
|
On the topic of fe8 class options, how do super-trainee classes work? Do they have the same growths and caps as the basic trainee class? Is there any benefit to using them whatsoever?
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 09:04
|
|
|
classes in fe8 dont change your growths at all, thats all character based. theres no difference in growths between knight amelia and cav amelia. super trainees do have higher caps than the default trainees but they're pretty low and the promo bonuses don't increase your CON so thats a big problem too. ross and amelia get a crit bonus and ewan can use dark/light/anima as super trainees. in ross's case there's literally no reason not to go berserker and light magic is pretty mid in fe8 so druid is probably better if you want dark/anima for ewan but ig amelia is the only way to get a 'halbedier'
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 09:14
|
|
|
Ewan also loses staff access that way. The super trainee classes are all pretty underwhelming for being a new game+ Easter egg. Ross in particular, because while the other two at least try to do something cool and unique, Ross just gets handed "one of the classes you already had, but worse"
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 11:10
|
|
|
WrightOfWay posted:I think people tend to overemphasize long term, endgame use as the only thing that makes a unit worth using. If a unit is your 4th best combat unit in chapter 2 and starts slowly falling through the ranks until leaving your actively used party when a prepromote joins in chapter 12, that doesn't mean that they didn't contribute throughout that whole time that you deployed them. Hell, in some games, they may even have been one of your better combat units for the hardest part of the game. Etie got mentioned, but she's a really good example of this. Even though she's a middling character at best in the context of Engage's overall cast at endgame, early on giving her a steel bow with a couple of cheap forges lets her trivially vaporize every flyer in the early game, which are otherwise pretty annoying to deal with with your other early character options.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 12:49
|
|
|
The main reason to use super trainees is if you really like their sprite, there's not really compelling mechanical reasons to do so.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 15:18
|
|
|
It’s more of a goofy bonus, and it’s locked behind beating the game with both routes. They get an crit bonus like swordmaster/zerker though which is funny, but not enough to make up for being in a trainee class
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 15:29
|
|
|
WrightOfWay posted:I think people tend to overemphasize long term, endgame use as the only thing that makes a unit worth using. If a unit is your 4th best combat unit in chapter 2 and starts slowly falling through the ranks until leaving your actively used party when a prepromote joins in chapter 12, that doesn't mean that they didn't contribute throughout that whole time that you deployed them. Hell, in some games, they may even have been one of your better combat units for the hardest part of the game. This is a problem with gaming in general, if there's a strategy that makes something stronger at the end of the game it's overwhelmingly considered the optimal path even if it makes the earlier parts of the game an unfun slog
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 15:30
|
|
|
Eh I wouldn’t really call that a problem with gaming. That’s just a natural heuristic of Maximize Output, but we all have to rely on something like that when we’re not familiar with a game. There’s definitely also a naive option of just only focus on what’s right in front of you and eschew any long term planning. More nuanced approaches like recognizing when you can cash something in because you’ve hit the threshold, balancing short/long term payoff, etc all pretty require some experimentation or built up knowledge so they’re not as broadly applicable at first.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 15:41
|
|
|
Yeah, at least with Fire Emblem something like early promotion (where it theoretically comes at the cost of stats) can be kinda daunting in a few games, like if I’m getting my rear end kicked and actually want the power on New Mystery Maniac, what happens when I hit endgame and Palla’s getting doubled by everything because I promoted at level 10? If I early promote Rutger what about the extra HP he would have had by waiting?
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 15:57
|
|
|
I think a lot of this happening in Fire Emblem is just an outgrowth of Megalixir syndrome. Similar to how people don't want to "waste" limited resources like megalixirs in RPGs and end up beating the game with a bag full of them because they refused to use them even in situations when they would have helped out because what if they needed them later, a lot of people who play Fire Emblem don't want to "waste" limited resources like exp or kills or limited use weapons or promotion items or whatever, so you get people playing through the entirety of GBA Fire Emblem games using only iron weapons and never letting the Jegans get a single kill because the Jagen only gets 2 experience and someone else might have gotten 15 even if that other person would need to level up 10 times to be as good as the Jagen is right now.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 16:07
|
|
|
Endorph posted:fe6 genuinely has the best roster and unit balance in the series. all the bad units are funny bad and all the decent units usually have at least one instance where they're good or some niche they fulfill. it's miles ahead of three houses where everyone is either Generic Blob (bad) or Generic Blob (good) Except that everyone has different combat arts and spell lists! And the different boons and banes make getting into classes take different amounts of time, and this constrains the classes you can realistically pass through and master in a playthrough! Like, yeah, you can make Lysithea into a fortress knight, and you can also make Raphael into a fortress knight. True. But not only will they play very differently in the class given their different stats and combat arts, but the journey to get to that class will have been totally different. In investing in armor for Lysithea, you're making a bigger sacrifice of not investing into other things than you are with Raphael since he has a boon in it and Lysithea has a bane.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 17:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 13:37 |
|
|
I’ve just picked up Tree Houses, it’s the first time I’ve played a FE game. How much can the random leveling up screw me? I’m pretty anxious about it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2024 18:39
|
|
