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http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4494610/sen-morans-comments-koch-brothers That editorial got read on the senate floor today.
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Apr 4, 2014 03:13
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I wonder how much money that cost.
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Apr 4, 2014 03:16
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I think we frequently forget how easily sincere belief and cynical manipulation can not just coexist, but in fact can thrive on one another.
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Apr 4, 2014 04:55
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Best Giraffe posted:I think we frequently forget how easily sincere belief and cynical manipulation can not just coexist, but in fact can thrive on one another. Jim Jones was a really confusing man.
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Apr 4, 2014 16:10
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BrandorKP posted:http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4494610/sen-morans-comments-koch-brothers I guess it's kind of fitting that it was read by a dude named "Moran." Maybe he should get a brain
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Apr 4, 2014 16:35
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Crowsbeak posted:as this sub human is This is the place I won't go. Part of why I started this thread because I couldn't figure out what was compelling about libertarianism. Mr Koch was a convenient and very public source to look at. I couldn't figure out how people ended up there and what was driving the reaching of these awful conclusions. It is fantastically important to recognize that his humanity is the same as ours. We all risk doing what he is doing.
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Apr 4, 2014 16:51
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Suitaru posted:I guess it's kind of fitting that it was read by a dude named "Moran." Maybe he should get a brain Any Senator from Kansas is going to be the Koch's errand boy.
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Apr 4, 2014 16:57
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BrandorKP posted:This is the place I won't go. Part of why I started this thread because I couldn't figure out what was compelling about libertarianism. Mr Koch was a convenient and very public source to look at. I couldn't figure out how people ended up there and what was driving the reaching of these awful conclusions. No, we need to do the opposite, we need to make it so to hold his view is to be not human. We need to attack the very idea of being a libertarian, we need to not only subject those views to ridicule, but work to make them hated. That is how you win, not by "rational discourse". Because most people don't have the time or the patience for that, they like it when they see people torn down, they fallow those who show anger in their message, they see it as a presentation of truth. Also I realized that when I was talking about Americas paranoid character that many doubted, how many of the last elections have had people declaring they were frauds (beyond 2000)? Why not play into that fear, by presenting a amendment against vote rigging? Make it so that those who rig the vote, which is of course a cherished part of the nation, shall be considered to have committed treason, also treason will be unpardonable offense. Just think of all the paranoids on the right you could get to support this amendment, they would be convinced they would stop another Obama, best of all you can ensure that if certain parts of the Rights leadership really consider it they will leave themselves open. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Apr 4, 2014 |
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Apr 4, 2014 16:59
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Crowsbeak posted:No, we need to do the opposite, we need to make it so to hold his view is to be not human. We need to attack the very idea of being a libertarian, we need to not only subject those views to ridicule, but work to make them hated. That is how you win, not by "rational discourse". Because most people don't have the time or the patience for that, they like it when they see people torn down, they fallow those who show anger in their message, they see it as a presentation of truth. Republicans have won national elections by turning Nancy Pelosi, Michael Bloomberg and Ted Kennedy into boogymen. There is no reason the dems can't do the same to the Koch's. Since they are, you know, actually evil.
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Apr 4, 2014 17:03
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BrandorKP posted:This is the place I won't go. Part of why I started this thread because I couldn't figure out what was compelling about libertarianism. Mr Koch was a convenient and very public source to look at. I couldn't figure out how people ended up there and what was driving the reaching of these awful conclusions. Libertarianism is, in my experience, almost entirely based in selfishness. When I was a libertarian I became that way because bad things had happened to me, and because I believed that the government had no right mandating things about my life. I stopped that stupid poo poo when I realized that the outcomes of such a belief system were directly impacting me and the people I loved. The Koch brothers are insulated from all that. They don't have anyone whispering in their ear that glory is fleeting, they probably don't even have anyone in their lives willing to tell them no over anything and likely haven't for several decades. They have no idea what it is like to go hungry, or to worry about bills, or any of the many, many other things that cause people to realize that we need help from one another. It is no surprise and no mistake that libertarians are predominantly white males, it takes a special kind of privilege to think that you can make it entirely on your own.
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Apr 4, 2014 17:04
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mcmagic posted:Republicans have won national elections by turning Nancy Pelosi, Michael Bloomberg and Ted Kennedy into boogymen. There is no reason the dems can't do the same to the Koch's. Since they are, you know, actually evil. That is my point, make them monsters to the American public, make it common knowledge that they are sub humans. Do the same to their sociopathic allies. Also feed on Americas paranoid character to play up Libertareians hate for democracy, play up fears of voter fraud, and losing ones votes because a bunch of elites know better than the regular joe. Use populism to help in tearing these things down.
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Apr 4, 2014 17:09
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mcmagic posted:Republicans have won national elections by turning Nancy Pelosi, Michael Bloomberg and Ted Kennedy into boogymen. There is no reason the dems can't do the same to the Koch's. Since they are, you know, actually evil. People like the Kochs have the noise machine, the politicians, and entire private armies to stomp out anything that even comes close to inconveniencing them. The one blip on the radar in the last decade was Occupy and, in between getting choked out by the cops and screamed down by every dead-eyed news anchor in the country, it was ridiculed by plenty of supposed "liberals," "leftists," or "progressives" whose true, driving, and eternal mission is to come off as Smarter and more Reasonable than everyone else, not to enact any kind of change. There is no stopping the societal trend we're on, with the rich hoovering up everything until they implode and take civilization with them. The factors against any dissent have grown too monolithic to dismantle in one lifetime, or two, or three, and by then climate change will have kicked in and started tightening the screws on the human race as a whole anyway. Get yourself a little light and a little hope and run away with it if you're able, because the rich are never going to stop chasing you to snatch up what limited relief you'll have left.
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Apr 4, 2014 17:25
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Yeah the moment there is any REAL opposition to the Koch and crew's dreams you can be drat sure there will be a violent reaction leaving a lot of people dead either through police or some of the alphabet agencies getting involved. After which the dead or imprisoned will be labeled as terrorists, no one in an authority position will be punished, and the status quo will be maintained.
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Apr 4, 2014 17:48
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Crowsbeak posted:That is my point, make them monsters to the American public, make it common knowledge that they are sub humans. Do the same to their sociopathic allies. Also feed on Americas paranoid character to play up Libertareians hate for democracy, play up fears of voter fraud, and losing ones votes because a bunch of elites know better than the regular joe. Use populism to help in tearing these things down. 
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Apr 4, 2014 17:49
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You do have the senate majority leader publicly talking about these guys and it appears to be a winning issue for democrats.
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Apr 4, 2014 17:51
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Oxxidation posted:People like the Kochs have the noise machine, the politicians, and entire private armies to stomp out anything that even comes close to inconveniencing them. The one blip on the radar in the last decade was Occupy and, in between getting choked out by the cops and screamed down by every dead-eyed news anchor in the country, it was ridiculed by plenty of supposed "liberals," "leftists," or "progressives" whose true, driving, and eternal mission is to come off as Smarter and more Reasonable than everyone else, not to enact any kind of change. Ah good to see more defeatism. More it doesn't matter nihilism, more "they've won". They win when you say this, they win when you decide you should just run away. Their not winning do you not see? If they were winning these creatures wouldn't have to restrict the vote, if they were winning they wouldn't be getting their whores on the supreme court to put out these decisions. If they were winning then there would be no need to hold the debt hostage. If they were winning you'd not see most of progressive caucus get elected. If they were winning they wouldn't be writing editorials to their rags about being oppressed. We may not be winning, but they are not anywhere near the power they use to have, they know this thats why they are pushing so hard, rather than accept that real humans are not like them, they will push harder to try to force their sociopathy on us, thats why you do not let up, because you ensure they fail, and you ensure you can be the new voice for a new way of doing things.
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Apr 4, 2014 17:54
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Crowsbeak posted:Ah good to see more defeatism. More it doesn't matter nihilism, more "they've won". They win when you say this, they win when you decide you should just run away. Their not winning do you not see? If they were winning these creatures wouldn't have to restrict the vote, if they were winning they wouldn't be getting their whores on the supreme court to put out these decisions. If they were winning then there would be no need to hold the debt hostage. If they were winning you'd not see most of progressive caucus get elected. If they were winning they wouldn't be writing editorials to their rags about being oppressed. We may not be winning, but they are not anywhere near the power they use to have, they know this thats why they are pushing so hard, rather than accept that real humans are not like them, they will push harder to try to force their sociopathy on us, thats why you do not let up, because you ensure they fail, and you ensure you can be the new voice for a new way of doing things. I mean, they still have tons of money and political influence built up over decades, so it's not like awareness-raising will instantly defeat them, but I imagine inducing defeatism in the other 'side' of the fence was a goal of all their political messaging. I think I read something about that in a commentary from Ailes back in the Nixon days or something like that?
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Apr 4, 2014 17:56
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Radish posted:Yeah the moment there is any REAL opposition to the Koch and crew's dreams you can be drat sure there will be a violent reaction leaving a lot of people dead either through police or some of the alphabet agencies getting involved. After which the dead or imprisoned will be labeled as terrorists, no one in an authority position will be punished, and the status quo will be maintained. They already do, the FBI routinely attempts to infiltrate leftist organizations, and get the members put in jail on trumped up charges. Also remember I am a spenglerian, so you shouldn't assume that I haven't already thought we're headed to the Grachi. Nessus posted:I think one of the most powerful supporting factors these guys have is the illusion that they are totally invincible and untouchable, which therefore turns off a lot of people who might otherwise be hostile to their agenda. This is why I advocate anger, its a great antidote from defeatism, it helps one see that their enemies can be torn down. Of course that should be the goal of any political force, to crush other ideologies to the point where they cannot even think of resisting. Which should be ours. BTW what do you think of my suggestion for a "protecting the vote amendment"?. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Apr 4, 2014 |
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Apr 4, 2014 17:57
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Crowsbeak posted:Ah good to see more defeatism. More it doesn't matter nihilism, more "they've won". They win when you say this, they win when you decide you should just run away. Their not winning do you not see? If they were winning these creatures wouldn't have to restrict the vote, if they were winning they wouldn't be getting their whores on the supreme court to put out these decisions. If they were winning then there would be no need to hold the debt hostage. If they were winning you'd not see most of progressive caucus get elected. If they were winning they wouldn't be writing editorials to their rags about being oppressed. We may not be winning, but they are not anywhere near the power they use to have, they know this thats why they are pushing so hard, rather than accept that real humans are not like them, they will push harder to try to force their sociopathy on us, thats why you do not let up, because you ensure they fail, and you ensure you can be the new voice for a new way of doing things. This would be tremendously more convincing if you were able to write coherent English. The rich are winning. They've always been winning, and what's more, they seem to wholeheartedly believe the idea that they fully deserve the position they're in. But a pretty decent part of the human race, the unimportant people, don't really agree, and some little part of the rich's reptile brains keeps nagging them about that, hence the endless, whining persecution complex from anyone in power (and not just today, obviously, this has been a historic thing) combined with the hysterical and immediate reaction to anyone who pokes a hole in their bubble long enough for them to glimpse the real world outside. Part of the constant class/race war rhetoric in this country and elsewhere is just a deliberate product of the noise machine keeping the little people distracted, but the people in power, by all accounts, genuinely do believe that they're just honest hard-working souls constantly beleaguered by insidious forces from Outside, where everyone besides them happens to be. And on top of making them even more infuriating, it also ensures that they'll never grow complacent, because they're always further reinforcing their defenses against anything or anyone who can dismantle the current power structure before they, and we, all die off first.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:04
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If the rich have been always winning constantly forever why are we even able to concieve of non-rich-winning? Or is it a handily apocalyptic thing where we had a chance for ever but NOW, due to the unique circumstances of OUR LIFESPANS, NOW we know there is no hope, absolutely none? This seems about as rational as the Mayan apocalypse. Crowsbeak posted:This is why I advocate anger, its a great antidote from defeatism, it helps one see that their enemies can be torn down. Of course that should be the goal of any political force, to crush other ideologies to the point where they cannot even think of resisting. Which should be ours.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:08
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Crowsbeak posted:That is my point, make them monsters to the American public, make it common knowledge that they are sub humans. Do the same to their sociopathic allies. Also feed on Americas paranoid character to play up Libertareians hate for democracy, play up fears of voter fraud, and losing ones votes because a bunch of elites know better than the regular joe. Use populism to help in tearing these things down. That's just a dumb idea you've decided is true. Brandor is right, this is the cruel and selfish side of human nature. We all have it to some extent. It's reasonable to call the Kochs vicious, misguided, sadistic etc. but calling them subhuman is not going to make people say "oh my gosh they're not even people!!" and usher in The Communism.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:14
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Oxxidation posted:This would be tremendously more convincing if you were able to write coherent English. SedanChair posted:That's just a dumb idea you've decided is true. Brandor is right, this is the cruel and selfish side of human nature. We all have it to some extent. It's reasonable to call the Kochs vicious, misguided, sadistic etc. but calling them subhuman is not going to make people say "oh my gosh they're not even people!!" and usher in The Communism. Nessus posted:
Where do you think I got the idea from? Plus lets not deny it is something that many of us do fear. We know that there are types within the GOP that would consider it. Why not therefore remedy against it, while also getting their own base to sign on, out of concern for protecting America. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Apr 4, 2014 |
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Apr 4, 2014 18:18
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Crowsbeak posted:We need to attack the very idea of being a libertarian I think that can be done with demonizing the people. "This will not save you, it's a lie and a human construct" I think that can be pointed at their definition of freedom/liberty. Nessus posted:I think one of the most powerful supporting factors these guys have is the illusion that they are totally invincible and untouchable, They think that, because they think they have the Truth. It's "You can kill us but you cannot harm us". That smile Ted Cruz gets, I think that what is behind that smile is: I know the Truth and you don't, I can't lose. But we can harm their truth. Because this "this will not save you, it's a lie and a human construct" is true about praxeology and the libertarian version of freedom. It is a falsehood to characterize My. Koch as un-American. He's very American. To attack him as a person, is a non sequitur. But it is true to say: Your Liberty is not the American ideal, it's a falsehood and a intellectual construct, and it cannot save you or this country.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:33
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They love Austria so much... well you know who ELSE came from Austria?
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Apr 4, 2014 18:36
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BrandorKP posted:I think that can be done with demonizing the people. Yes I am sure that the majority will listen to a well reasoned argument. I mean we've been doing that for 40 years and that has worked so well. While I will not disagree that ensuring a intellectual foundation for a new changed system is a great idea. In fact it is fine to get intellectual when dealing with the psuedo intellectuals who rally around Reason, CATO, and the National Rag, however for most this will not work. They instead respond to appeals to emotion, to appeals to their sense of being a common man, of a sense of being in a system that works against them because of dark sinister forces, and I say play to that. Nessus posted:They love Austria so much... well you know who ELSE came from Austria? That reminds me maybe we could use a little of this  when it comes to their love of the sociopath LVM. Point out he was in love with fascism, also bring up the fact that he hated Christianity. Suggest that if one identifies with LVM they must hold all of his views.
Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Apr 4, 2014 |
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Apr 4, 2014 18:39
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Crowsbeak posted:I do not want communism, Really? You believe in private property while others starve? Subhuman. See how effective that is?
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Apr 4, 2014 18:42
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SedanChair posted:Really? You believe in private property while others starve? Subhuman. Subhuman should only be used in situations when you can ensure that the reasons to attack the person will be shared by those around you. I know that here most would find the entire thought processes of Charles Koch abhorrent, but in public they would be considered at best only a bit weird, that is why the overton window must be worked on, so that it is moved so he can be considered that. Of course perhaps suggesting he hold the view of his father is a great way to start. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Apr 4, 2014 |
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Apr 4, 2014 18:49
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"perhaps suggesting he hold the view of his father is a great way to start" Don't need to suggest. That ones explicit, found a quote from him to that effect earlier in the thread.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:52
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BrandorKP posted:"perhaps suggesting he hold the view of his father is a great way to start" He has actually openly stated that the left should be rounded up and put into Camps? He has stated Mussolini wasn't a bad guy? He has openly stated that a race war is about to start? Fred Koch was a literal fascist.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:59
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Of course they don't repeat any of that stuff. But they tell stories about him in the "Discovery" newsletters. They quote him a lot, credit their world view to him, tell stories about him, etc. It's veritable mountain of poo poo to wade into but I've been collecting links to primary sources in the OP (and anything else linked to in the thread). Again they literally tell stories about Fred in the company newsletter. There's a whole lot of talk about how Fred shaped Charles' world view, straight from Charles. Seven years of company newsletters: http://www.kochind.com/Newsroom/discovery.aspx (not about the Fred point but important) The Koch canon: http://www.kochind.com/Newsroom/EconomicFreedom.aspx You'll find a lot in there to have fun with. I do not agree with the dehumanizing, but I collected links to all this stuff for a reason. Go hog wild it's all at the bottom of the OP. My God. I can't believe I didn't notice it before. The grandfather's name is Harry. I know it's pronounced "coke". But Harry Koch is still pretty goddamn funny. Edit: Will be gone might not post for about a week. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Apr 4, 2014 |
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Apr 4, 2014 19:15
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BrandorKP posted:Of course they don't repeat any of that stuff. But they tell stories about him in the "Discovery" newsletters. They quote him a lot, credit their world view to him, tell stories about him, etc. It's veritable mountain of poo poo to wade into but I've been collecting links to primary sources in the OP (and anything else linked to in the thread). Again they literally tell stories about Fred in the company newsletter. There's a whole lot of talk about how Fred shaped Charles' world view, straight from Charles. Then if they claim him as their own, use that to tar them. Make them out to be fascists. Like I said this is war and you only win through undermining your enemies at every turn. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Apr 4, 2014 |
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Apr 4, 2014 19:40
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A few pages earlier in the thread people were talking about doing things to stop the seemingly inevitable slide into oligarchy that American is caught in. I don't really have any answers, but I would like to point out that there are a lot of likeminded people out there. Here in Tallahassee people are pretty irate about the Koch brother's influence in the Economics Department. I work next door to the bar that most of the FSU faculty who goes to bars hangs out at. I've heard the economics dept at FSU called a libertarian think tank more than a few times, and not in a positive way. The FSU student senate has publicly spoken out against this. http://fcir.org/2012/02/01/university-students-recoil-at-koch-influence/ http://floridaindependent.com/66205/fsu-students-challenge-schools-koch-agreement But nothing really happened. Here's the actual agreement between FSU and the Koch foundation. http://www.aaup.org/NR/rdonlyres/A25AD711-9F2A-49A5-9551-6C09638F290C/0/fsucontract.pdf I'm just posting it because most of the links I had found to it were dead. It was hard to dig up. and I figured some people here might find it interesting. I started trying to type an optimistic post and I just can't really finish. The research I did while trying to make a point that the whole FSU thing had generated some backlash just made me realize that, no, it didn't really. A lot of people hate it, but thay have no power, influence, or money. http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/11/11/2923411/creepy-uncle-sam-tailgate/ so, how do we compete with "flashy cars, drinking games, models, a DJ, and plenty of “educational” material about why young people shouldn’t take advantage of Obamacare." This poo poo is so gross. I'm all about ideas for trying to curb the Koch influence here in Tallahassee. https://www.facebook.com/GenerationOpportunity E: Also gently caress this guy for inviting the vampires in, and having a ALOD worthy website. http://mailer.fsu.edu/~bbenson/
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Apr 4, 2014 21:19
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Use their rhetoric against them. The Founding Fathers gave motivated individuals the ability to liberate themselves from collective tyranny; this is the real benefit of the second amendment 
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Apr 4, 2014 22:02
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McDowell posted:Use their rhetoric against them. The Koch Brothers don't use rhetoric, they use money. The rhetoric is just to take up the empty space.
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Apr 5, 2014 00:06
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Leroy Diplowski posted:The Koch Brothers don't use rhetoric, they use money. The rhetoric is just to take up the empty space. 'I thought they would welcome me as a liberator!'
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Apr 5, 2014 00:07
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Hey guys, there's a good chance theses two pieces of human filth will be dead within the next decade. Sure they'll have hosed us beyond practical repair and will have replacements but gently caress, at least they'll be loving DEAD and rotting in the same ground as all the poor people they doomed to suffer and die. So there's some form of justice there. Christ I hate these two men. Like, I hate them more than any other human beings on the planet. If there was any justice in the universe they'd be strung up as national traitors and their names would be right next to Benedict Arnold in the history books.
Shimrra Jamaane fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Apr 5, 2014 |
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Apr 5, 2014 03:46
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I swear to god will go on a road trip to piss on their graves. I hope they are buried close together so that I can save money.
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Apr 5, 2014 03:50
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Miltank posted:I swear to god will go on a road trip to piss on their graves. I hope they are buried close together so that I can save money. To paraphrase Hunter S. Thompson for the second time in as many weeks, I sorta hope their coffins are fired into an open sewer somewhere. Captain_Maclaine fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Apr 5, 2014 |
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Apr 5, 2014 03:55
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Leroy Diplowski posted:The Koch Brothers don't use rhetoric, they use money. The rhetoric is just to take up the empty space. Money matters, but being able to play hard ball also matters. Likewise at the very least if you play dirty enough you can get it so that their targets decide to not vote at all. Also our goal as an ideology should be to do to them after they die what the Egyptians did to Akhentaten.
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Apr 5, 2014 04:05
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Hey guys, there's a good chance theses two pieces of human filth will be dead within the next decade. Sure they'll have hosed us beyond practical repair and will have replacements but gently caress, at least they'll be loving DEAD and rotting in the same ground as all the poor people they doomed to suffer and die. So there's some form of justice there. Christ I hate these two men. Like, I hate them more than any other human beings on the planet. If there was any justice in the universe they'd be strung up as national traitors and their names would be right next to Benedict Arnold in the history books. Talking about ideology is one thing, fixating on two guys to this extent is another. This is weird.
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Apr 5, 2014 04:18
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