|
Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:While true, you easily sidestep this by having everyone play hackers, sort of how FFG's Star Wars game solved the problem of "the Jedi has all the fun" with "you're all fukken jedi now" Ironically the system FFG uses for their Star Wars games would probably be much better suited towards an Android RPG in some ways, like how combat is dangerous enough that characters need to carry around pockets full of stimpacks to stay on their feet. I probably wouldn't gear the game towards Hackers as the default or as some kind of Jedi analogue, Android the board game had you playing NAPD detectives, it looks like there are your usual assortment of cyberpunk criminals, bounty hunters, rogue androids/clones, freelance journalists, etc. that it would probably work better as a more typical "affiliation of societal misfits and cyberfreaks do crimes and/or Fight The Man" setup.
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 07:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 14:12 |
|
|
I do need to kill some of darlings. I do believe that Netrunner's theme makes it a harder sell to new adopters than generic fantasy, anime trash, or a licensed property like Thrones or Star Wars. But these aren't problems that can (or should) be addressed. But that isn't the biggest threat to the community. For that matter, neither is the physical format. Playing Netrunner in person is a much more engaging that over Jinteki because a game about bluffing loses something when the players cannot read one another. This is as important a mechanic as counting influence to predict what decks are being played or knowing when to face check. The highest-level decks are, also, not the problem. Asset Spam and DLR are bullshit decks that are anti-fun and violate the basic interactions of the game. But they don't keep new players out or make the game unplayable at anything lower than try-hard levels. The Corp world-champion deck is a great buy (if you know about it and can find it.) The runner deck had at least one major printing error and one that had it's function significantly errata'd. The Buy-In to Netrunner is reaching an untenable level. A Standard deck in Magic usually costs (from scratch) a couple hundred dollars. So does a 40K army. But those are both much longer running games, and in Magic's case, a game with a significant professional scene. But a complete play set of Netrunner (if my math is right) runs at an MSRP of $780 by the time that rotation finally arrives. So, what the hell can be done? In the short term, new players need an easier way to start playing decks that both teach the game and plays a good game. The suggestion for "Duel Decks" is right on the money. This would be a fantastic way to lead into new expansion blocks. It would introduce the themes, could be used to preview cards from the set (with some difficulties that wouldn't be more complicating than the draft sets) and provide an immediate way into the game. In the medium, I earnestly believe we need a Core Set 1.1. Not a 2.0 version of the game, but a revised core set of reprints and maybe a few new cards that provides actual playables. Make the agenda suite 3x GFI, 3x Corporate Sales Team, 3x Chronos Project, and a 2-pointer from each faction to make 20-point deck with 10 agendas. The 1.1 Core Set would establish a rotation structure that allows big boxes and the core set to be pushed out play as they become obsolete. There is absolutely no reason we need the stone-unplayable Custom Biotics wasting a chance to be competitive with ETF. Long term, rotation needs to happen faster, Jinteki.net needs to be bought and professionally supported (Aside: I legitimately don't know if this is possible. Remember that Netrunner is a mess of licensing. In addition to FFG licensing it from WoTC, the original game is still owned in part by R. Talsorian Games, who made the Cyberpunk RPG and is still credited on Netrunner product, WoTC is also owned by Hasbro and FFG is owned by Asmodee) so buying J.Net may be utterly impossible. But keeping the game healthy means getting better playtesters too. Like I said, I'm going to be immensely disappointed if Netrunner collapses in on itself. I'm actually a big supporter of the card design that Damon has done so far, I think getting fresh eyes is a good idea. Here's hoping.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 07:29
|
|
|
Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:Yeah. Between the World Champs decks giving you staples for $30, you can build a deck, see which packs it needs, and just buy those. Relatedly, i have a buncha old cards sitting around from the last move. If there's anyone who needs a boost starting out, lemme know and I'll dig up the post of what I got. The Deleter posted:I'm not sure if I can really comment on anything here. I still love and have fun with the game. I don't play competitively, which is where most of the problems seem to be coming from - down here I can play Builder of Nations just fine. But I might quit collecting after Flashpoint unless something really excites me. The griping from the rest of the community is really getting to me. Some good points. The problems I can see are along these lines. 1) Transitioning datapacks to thematics stuff or faction-specific. I think it was team covenant's store used to break a core set into faction specific cards and throw them up for 5-10$ just for people who wanted that third grimoire or desperado. Instead of releasing one datapack at a time, you'd want to release 2-3 at once and let people buy which faction they like. Reason: buying a garbage datapack for one good card is bullshit. 2) Multipurpose cards. Deckslots are at an extreme premium, and there's frankly a lot of cards which are Neat and Thematic and just never see play because bases need to be covered. Stuff like Deuces Wild is a step in the right direction. A flavorful omni-operation for factions would be neat. Sunset, surge - stuff like that. Disruptor would be a great effect to slap on another card. Its useless by itself, but if its text is present on say, an icebreaker? That's a harder choice. You could save yourself from a sea source but you're out of a breaker. The key is cards that do more than one thing, but not both at the same time. For example, force of nature, one of the worst icebreakers in the game - what if it can break code gates AND sentries? Suddenly, that's interesting. Its expensive and bad...but you can also fit more viruses in without a mimic. You have a reason to consider giving up one of the best sentry breakers out there. I was going to say barriers, but nobody gives up corroder. 2) On the more playtesting front, really, they need to embrace the philosophy that every card must be worth playing. Not just silver bullets, etc. A bit is okay, but I think we've hit the point where there's too much to account for. Also unless you plan ahead for it, rotation for it probably aren't synched either. 3) a Version 2.0 reprint data pack wouldn't be out of the question. Take old lackluster cards and making them actually useful. There's plenty of room for 'oops, we goofed, here's the other version that we changed in playtesting before release'. Salvage and co, I'm looking at you. There's a dearth of worthless cards in the game that make you go 'I've never seen this played, why is it even in the game?' You could add subtypes to older cards, or even print errata'd versions, or change influence costs for stuff that needs it. For example, the core set weyland card, help up against core HB is kind of a far cry from a free buck a turn. would it be more even if they got a buck for scoring agendas as well as playing transactions? 4) an adjustment to the base rules that lets a corporation discard a card and sell the 'stock' off for money at the start of their turn - for example, you could outsource an operation you know you're not going to need(say, foxfire, which did see a bit of use when Dyson was around) for a buck or two, or a lesser value facedown if you don't want to telegraph what it is. Basically I'm thinking a minor, once-per-turn clickless thing before you draw. Events can be pitched for a card instead, which helps with pacing - especially before card draw became prevalent. Reason: Expanding on the hidden information game is always nice, but this is a way around the silver bullet design philosophy - you can pack them, but if you don't need it, it still has a use. it also lets the corporation react a little bit to the runner, adjust their plan on the fly, reinforce that this is a business/corporate game - and something like this would have gone a long way towards making the release account siphon spam a lot more recoverable. You can pitch a foxfire you can't use to dig for an agenda, or abandon your scorch policy if you can't cut past 3 plascrete. 5) Similiarly, if you go above your minimum deck size, you should get an influence point or two more to play with per bump up, to a certain limit. Nothing big, but a point or two can make a difference if you want high-value cards, for example. There'd actually be a reason to break a mold and go slightly one-card fatter. This fundamentally changes some deckbuilding principles. Reason: Again, deckslots are at a premium. You want to create ways to use new cards, and giving people room to experiment and grow the deck at a little trade-off makes sense. 5) Agendas that take up more or less weight in your deck than the printed point cost. You'd need to be careful with this, but there's plenty of room to brush up lackluster agendas. Reason: Agenda density is one thing that directly impacts the amount of 'fun' non-crucial cards you can put in your deck - things which let you manipulate your agenda density without making a game unwinnable wound be neat. Also: Pepper a few agendas with influence costs. This is the thing I was disappointed with. They define factions but there are some agendas that are just miles ahead of the competition - why am I locked out of borrowing that? Oh no, that other side has a really good card and I want it is a core mechanic of the game. I'm not saying all agendas need it, but it'd be great to have a few lines blurred in the name of business for things all the corps really get into. Dual-faction stuff is a possibilty, though I'm not sure its actually needed. A card like Cache, though? That should have totally been red AND blue. An official adadaptation of The Big Sell Out multiplayer format would be really nice. Games ultimately thrive by playing with friends. You want to expand the social aspect as much as possible, and for a game that's starting to get expenseive to get into, targeting expansions that could be split amongst a group of people makes sense. Something 'Sentinels of the multiverse'-ey where you're playing against an semi-automated deck with a flowchart and objectives could also be fun. And more importantly, a way to show people how to play in a less adversarial format. I think the mumbad cycle's been a pretty huge step in the right direction. As the spoilers dropped, there were a lot of really interesting, cool, and janky-but-feasable cards up in there. Its the kind of stuff that made me want to see more for the most part. A few exceptionally broken things slipped through playtesting, and that just means the devs need more insight into their game and time to test it - but with the change of leadership, i feel like the gloves are kind of coming off the card design. I like the cycle and check out netrunnerdb every so often, but I just don't have time for it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 08:28
|
|
|
Man, looks like I picked a really bad time to get into Netrunner. I went to the local shop last week and got the basics/mechanics down, did some reading throughout the week, and then thought about joining the Sept/Oct league... But I don't know. I'll know it'll probably be fun, but the cost has been a bit of a factor. Even with games like Hearthstone, I don't want to blow a bunch of money to construct the perfect net deck; however, doing substitutions for cards you don't have aren't going to hamstring you that much. In Netrunner, the penalty for not having all of the cards at your disposal for meta shifts or countering seems incredibly severe. I was thinking of picking up the two Champion decks and the Core set, and I'm only in for ~$60 if I buy a few data packs on top. However, I'm a complete novice so I'm don't know how viable this is.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 14:22
|
|
|
The one big caveat with the champion decks is that they released a restricted list and errata'd one of the cards shortly afterwards. Champion HB + Core is pretty decent, the runner one is a little weirder but can probably be hammered out into something decent with Order and Chaos. And yeah there's a lot of griping but at its core Netrunner is still a really amazing game and one of the most unique card games out there.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 14:31
|
|
|
My honest advice would be that if you don't take the competitive scene too seriously most of the problems we've just been talking about won't apply to you. The game is fun at a basic, mechanical level. If you can find other people who approach it in that way, and who aim to have fun rather than make the best, most-tuned, most crushingly potent deck, you can ignore a lot of the griping and enjoy the actual mechanics of the game.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 14:32
|
|
|
Incidentally I think one way to inject a bit more innovation and fun at the competitive level would be tournaments with special rules - maybe everyone is assigned an ID at random, or you get bonus points for using under-played IDs, or only underplayed IDs are legal, or you have a "pack draft" format where players have to choose, say, 4 data packs only (plus the big boxes) to build their decks from, and those packs are chosen by drafting (ie if I take Opening Moves, you can't have it, etc). They don't have to compete with nationals or regionals or any of the standard constructed tourneys, but they'd be good fun as some downtime and would encourage the use of some cards besides the usual suspects.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 14:34
|
|
|
StashAugustine posted:
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 15:29
|
|
|
Phone posted:Man, looks like I picked a really bad time to get into Netrunner. I went to the local shop last week and got the basics/mechanics down, did some reading throughout the week, and then thought about joining the Sept/Oct league...
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 16:21
|
|
|
well this looks even dumber and more oppressive than Rumor Mill: According to the article, that means if you have an unrezzed trap, and they access it, it doesn't fire, which is insane if true.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 20:39
|
|
|
Blocked at work, what's the card text? Some ppl on Reddit saying it doesn't work and Lord knows FFG marketing doesn't know poo poo about how the game works
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 20:42
|
|
|
FFG has some real bozos in their copy dept. Interdiction does not stop this: quote:You're guaranteed your synapses safety from Haas-Bioroid's Cerebral Overwriter (Creation and Control, 9), and your rig gains safety from the corp's Aggressive Secretary (Core Set, 57).
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 20:44
|
|
|
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/8/31/martial-law/ And again NBN gets truly absurd ICE. At least Anson Rose could make advancing ICE worthwhile, especially if you're packing Dedication Ceremony, too.  Preemptive Action (the replacement, neutral Jackson Howard operation) is 0 influence! edit: Yeah, Interdiction doesn't prevent ambushes from firing. Those happen when you access the card. It's just that when you access them from HQ and R&D, Cerebral Overwriter, Project Junebug, etc all have 0 advancement counters on them so they don't do anything. They have the same wording as Snare!, which definitely fires when accessed from HQ/R&D (read: unrezzed). Yithian fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Aug 31, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 20:44
|
|
|
 That's 0 influence?
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 20:50
|
|
|
I'm fuzzy on the timing (read: haven't played Spark) does that gently caress with drip econ rezzes? Certainly throws a wrench in a lot of other stuff- defensive upgrades are even more worthless
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 20:51
|
|
|
StashAugustine posted:I'm fuzzy on the timing (read: haven't played Spark) does that gently caress with drip econ rezzes? Certainly throws a wrench in a lot of other stuff- defensive upgrades are even more worthless It does! Adonis/Eve/PAD/Launch Campaign need to be rezzed at the end of the runner's turn in order to get them to pay out at the start of the corp's turn. Interdiction seems like it will be A Very Good Card, even if it doesn't hose advanceable ambushes (which don't see much play anyways). edit: this is wrong, berenzen corrects it below. Yithian fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Aug 31, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 20:54
|
|
|
Yithian posted:It does! Adonis/Eve/PAD/Launch Campaign need to be rezzed at the end of the runner's turn in order to get them to pay out at the start of the corp's turn. Interdiction seems like it will be A Very Good Card, even if it doesn't hose advanceable ambushes (which don't see much play anyways). Biggest strike against it will be that you have to choose between Interdiction and Rumour Mill.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 20:57
|
|
|
ninjaiguana posted:Biggest strike against it will be that you have to choose between Interdiction and Rumour Mill. Not really. Is your runner orange? Rumor Mill. Not Orange? Interdiction. They both have the same text: "No surprise Jackson/Caprice/Batty" Seriously, where are the Corp toys?
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 20:59
|
|
|
StashAugustine posted:I'm fuzzy on the timing (read: haven't played Spark) does that gently caress with drip econ rezzes? Certainly throws a wrench in a lot of other stuff- defensive upgrades are even more worthless No, there's a paid ability window before "when your turn begins" conditionals meet their trigger. http://ancur.wikia.com/wiki/Timing_Structure_of_a_Turn Interdiction can also be played around a lot more than rumour mill can. It removes the surprise of cards like Ash and Caprice. But in reality, everyone knew what was there. berenzen fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Aug 31, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 20:59
|
|
|
Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:Not really. Is your runner orange? Rumor Mill. Not Orange? Interdiction. They both have the same text: "No surprise Jackson/Caprice/Batty" See, I think even if you're not orange at 2 influence rumour mill is still incredibly nice. But sure, if you're tight on influence interdiction is a no-brainer. And Interdiction doesn't help against pre-rezzed Jackson/etc, though pre-rezzing Caprice or Batty is obviously an issue. Also, I totally agree - the corps seem to be getting poo poo on with these latest packs. ninjaiguana fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Aug 31, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 20:59
|
|
|
uggh why isn't misdirection blue And yeah Corps are getting the short end of the stick here pretty bad
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 21:43
|
|
|
StashAugustine posted:uggh why isn't misdirection blue We tried that already
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 21:47
|
|
|
Wait, shedding tags is a Criminal thing, why is Misdirection green? because Criminal must be terrible forever Also the Corp currents had better be drat good to compete with Space Kitten and now this.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 22:02
|
|
|
Anson Rose basically keeps Builder of Nations relevant as long as he's rezzed. So obviously he'll be trashed constantly.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 22:12
|
|
|
The Deleter posted:Anson Rose basically keeps Builder of Nations relevant as long as he's rezzed (on the corp's turn). So obviously he'll be trashed constantly. Also on the "corps are getting shafted" side, they do have that really great current next pack that is "all resources are +$2 to install, which shuts down "turn 1 temujin, run run run, start turn 2 on $13" Shrecknet fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Aug 31, 2016 |
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 22:21
|
|
|
Install Anson Rose, rez him. Play Dedication Ceremony to load him up with advancement counters. Install Mausolus protecting him and laugh maliciously.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 22:34
|
|
|
Aside: It's kinda bullshit that they're teasing us with previews 3 datapacks away when they can barely release the ones up next on time. Magic hasn't even started talking about Kaladesh, and that's the next set.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 22:37
|
|
|
sonatinas posted:FFG has some real bozos in their copy dept. Looks like it's already been edited out of the article
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 22:40
|
|
|
Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:Aside: It's kinda bullshit that they're teasing us with previews 3 datapacks away when they can barely release the ones up next on time. Magic hasn't even started talking about Kaladesh, and that's the next set. If anything I feel like data packs are coming out too fast. There's tons of cards I haven't had a chance to mess with yet.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 22:45
|
|
|
I think the monthly model makes sense from a business perspective; but I wonder if a quarterly big box wouldn't be better from a gameplay perspective. Deck Building feels like sand castles because it's a common enough occurrence that the very next pack may necessitate a change. Which is great, but I'd also like to have a deck sleeved for more than a week or two.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 23:28
|
|
|
Agreed. There are early Mumbad cards I haven't really played with. IMO datapacks should be released at half the rate that they are. It'll give the community time to work on and perfect new deck types instead of having everything shook up every month, and having to scramble to find deck slots to fit in the new power cards that keep getting released.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2016 23:59
|
|
|
A slower release schedule also gives you more time to playtest if that's your thing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 00:09
|
|
|
NGDBSS posted:If you like, I've got a bunch of expansions and data packs through the Lunar Cycle/Chaos and Control (at this point 1.5 sets back) that I can get rid of for cheap. ANR is a game that I wanted to play more, but my friends focused almost completely on MtG which I find too non-interactive. (Plus, MtG has a much bigger buy-in.) For similar reasons most of my board games have languished, though at least there I'm hoping to interest some fellow nerds in something like Starcraft. PM me and I'll probably fax you dollars.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 02:37
|
|
|
Somberbrero posted:If anything I feel like data packs are coming out too fast. There's tons of cards I haven't had a chance to mess with yet.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 08:10
|
|
|
If they took a break after Flashpoint and let things settle, I'd be all for that. I'm a dumb impulsive nerd that likes the fast release schedule, but It probably isn't doing the game any favors. They could release more championship decks or something in the meantime.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 09:38
|
|
|
I think that doing it as 4x30 packs every 2 months or so might diversify the meta. Particularly if every card is actually meaningful rather than absolute trash. That being said, most non-weyland cards have felt like that over the past couple cycles.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 09:59
|
|
|
guys what if they just like the game too much and can't stop making cards
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 16:12
|
|
|
Tevery Best posted:guys then ill just buy them
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 16:16
|
|
|
what from the OP is worth salvaging if I were to put together a new thread, netrunners?
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 19:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 14:12 |
|
|
The one-core starter decks.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2016 20:30
|
|
