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Everything you said is right. Their BATNA is better than my BATNA, I have very little negotiating leverage at this point. Thanks for the reality check all. You're spot on in my failure to better communicate. Hopefully someone else can learn from my humbling lesson.
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Feb 15, 2016 17:20
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Saint Fu posted:Everything you said is right. Their BATNA is better than my BATNA, I have very little negotiating leverage at this point. Thanks for the reality check all. You're spot on in my failure to better communicate. Hopefully someone else can learn from my humbling lesson. a good post
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Feb 15, 2016 21:31
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I am in a similar situation, but unfortunately I have nothing in writing. I was sent benefits information when I was given my job offer, and responded with a counter-offer of higher base pay because I would be leaving behind a job that offered much better retirement options and would need to pay out of pocket in order to make up for it. The HR handler called me up after receiving my email and explained that I was wrong in my interpretation of the plan. He said that the actual plan provides a base employer contribution of 6% of salary with 5 years vesting, along with a 50% match of my personal contributions up to another 3% salary. I clarified with him to make sure that I got it right, and that I'd functionally be paying 6% of my own money and getting an additional 9% from them, with 3% vested immediately and the other 6% in 5 years. 15% total with only 6% coming from myself sounded much better to me so I backed down and accepted a lower base pay on the assumption that I had incorrectly calculated total value when I made my counter offer. Fast forward to working for a bit and I've come to realize that he did not explain any of the benefits to me properly. The 6% base is actually only 4%, and does not begin until I work for a year so I have seen none of that. The matching part is actually only 3% of my salary that they will then match half of for 1.5% employer contribution. He quoted me the benefits of a 10-year employee, NOT the benefits from an employee on day one. I was very clear with getting this spelled out to me so I know that I understood it correctly and he either misled me through incompetence or straight up lied. I have learned my lesson and will get anything like this in writing in the future, though it seems like even that wouldn't help. It turns out that my initial valuation of the benefits package was correct and I believed him when he told me that I was wrong. I have a review coming up and my manager is pretty cool with me so I'll mention that I feel shorted out of 7.5% but I don't expect to get anything out of it. tldr: I was told over the phone that I'd get 9% from employer but turns out I only actually get 1.5%. 9% is what a 10 year employee receives. I'm dumb for not getting it in writing.
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Feb 15, 2016 23:15
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I'm in the process of hunting for a new job possibly, and I reached out to a former manager who's now hiring in his new company. I sent him my resume, and he was impressed, and said he'd look to see what options he could create for me. He then asked me for my salary ask. I have no desire to pigeon hole myself into a number that might be lower than what they may pay (even though I do have a target number), so what's the best way of responding? "Regarding Salary, I'd prefer to see if there is a position that benefits both of us before getting into those specifics?" Or do I give him a range? This is the first time I've really been in this type of situation.
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Feb 16, 2016 02:20
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momtartin posted:I'm in the process of hunting for a new job possibly, and I reached out to a former manager who's now hiring in his new company. I sent him my resume, and he was impressed, and said he'd look to see what options he could create for me. He then asked me for my salary ask. I have no desire to pigeon hole myself into a number that might be lower than what they may pay (even though I do have a target number), so what's the best way of responding? I'd say not to overthink it and just to give a reasonable number that's somewhat on the high side. See what he does with it.
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Feb 16, 2016 02:37
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momtartin posted:I'm in the process of hunting for a new job possibly, and I reached out to a former manager who's now hiring in his new company. I sent him my resume, and he was impressed, and said he'd look to see what options he could create for me. He then asked me for my salary ask. I have no desire to pigeon hole myself into a number that might be lower than what they may pay (even though I do have a target number), so what's the best way of responding? If you don't know how much you're worth, a 10% salary increase for an actively recruited lateral move is a good starting point (if you're currently being paid reasonably). Obviously there are a whole host of variables that could change the number. Another key point here, this manager worked with you in the past, knows how awesome you are, and wants to work with you again. That means you're in the top tier of people in your field and should be paid accordingly.
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Feb 16, 2016 03:25
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Teeter posted:I am in a similar situation, but unfortunately I have nothing in writing. I was sent benefits information when I was given my job offer, and responded with a counter-offer of higher base pay because I would be leaving behind a job that offered much better retirement options and would need to pay out of pocket in order to make up for it. Again giving retrospective advice for how to handle stuff like this in the future, or for our intrepid readers who actually read the entire thread and assimilate the advice therein: When someone calls you on the phone to negotiate a job offer with you, write EVERYTHING they say down as they're saying it on a notepad. Get very nitty gritty about examples. If they're going to write you an offer for $80k, then do all math with that $80k and make it concrete. Have this conversation to the point where you are satisfied that you have a good understanding of your total compensation. Salary, health insurance policies, time off, life insurance policies, maternity leave should all be things you understand as a starting checklist. If someone talks about equity they MUST be willing to tell you the proportion of the company they are offering and the company's present valuation. If they don't their equity offer is worthless. A good equity offer of stock options looks like "2500 shares, or 0.1% of the company, with a strike price at $0.42, with a total valuation of $1,050,000, initially vesting 33% after one year, and fully vested within 3 years of your start date." A bad equity offer looks like "3000 shares at a strike price of $0.26!" Ask about vesting periods, some companies have policies that don't kick in for some amount of time. I had a job that tried to tell me not to take PTO for six months. After you have your conversation and you are satisfied with the benefits package they just offered you on the phone, tell them the following: "Ok <hiring person>, my understanding of the benefits is <benefits recap>. I am going to send you an email stating that the benefits are <benefits recap>. You are going to reply to me confirming that those are the benefits. I will not be signing an offer letter until I receive that confirmation email from you." You don't need to get snarky about the person trying to converse with you on the phone, some people are just better at communicating with their voice than with their writing. But they drat well better play ball when you say you're taking things to writing. swenblack posted:Don't ever give a range. The overwhelming majority of hiring managers will interpret it as the bottom number of the range. Just give them your target number. QFT Above snark about reading the thread because no matter how many times we say not to give a range, people still think it's a good idea and ask if they should.
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Feb 16, 2016 19:49
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Above snark about reading the thread because no matter how many times we say not to give a range, people still think it's a good idea and ask if they should.
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Feb 18, 2016 01:15
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swenblack posted:I think this thread gets that question a lot because it's not in the OP. This thread wasn't started as a resource thread and I can understand that people aren't going to read the whole thing before asking a question. People often get referred to this thread from other places on the forums. Maybe someone should start a new thread specifically to be a resource thread. I agree that would be a good idea, especially if Kalenn Istarion and Boot and Rally are also on board.
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Feb 18, 2016 16:27
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First offer letter was 50% RSUs, 50% stock options. I was told repeatedly that I could switch to any combination of those after signing, so I signed and in the same email requested 100% RSUs. they updated the offer letter and sent it over but assured me I didn't need to sign it. Fast forward several months later and I'm finally awarded my RSU grant, but it's half what I expected and includes options. The stock price has tanked over 25% since I signed. Thus, the options will likely be worthless for the remainder of my work here. I was originally told they couldn't fix it, but since I had it several places in email, it's being fixed and saving me over $10k per year I stay at the company. Get everything in writing.
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Feb 19, 2016 04:22
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Blinky2099 posted:First offer letter was 50% RSUs, 50% stock options. I was told repeatedly that I could switch to any combination of those after signing, so I signed and in the same email requested 100% RSUs. they updated the offer letter and sent it over but assured me I didn't need to sign it. Smart move, you should always ask yourself how could your employer gently caress you over a few months/years from now
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Feb 21, 2016 00:11
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So I'm about halfway through this thread (thank you so much to everyone who posted updates and advice; this is an awesome resource) and I am expecting an offer today. The role is as an Editor at an educational research think tank. I interviewed a week ago, and it seems like an interesting place. I have experience in education, and I'd like to return to that, but I don't necessarily have to teach. The role is primarily a copy-editor and proofreader, but I would also be responsible for document coordination, proposal editing, and training some interns in how to use Word effectively. It sounds super easy and kind of feels like it was written for me. This is how the initial phone screen went down: Recruiter: How much are you looking to earn in this position? Me: Well, with the responsibilities for this role and the importance of the publishing team, I would like to earn $65k. [This is my current salary and I expected to earn less anywhere else because contractors gently caress over the government.] Recruiter: Oh. Hm. I don't think we can do that. With your master's degree and four years of experience, the salary range for this position is $53k-$55k. Maybe we could wring a couple more thousand to get you to $57k. Could you work with that? Me: It would depend on other benefits, but that is an income drop from where I am now. I want to keep talking, but I would like to see other incentives and benefits. Recruiter: Okay. Let's get you in for an interview to see how you fit. One week ago from today, I interviewed, and I think it went well. I met two managers and talked to HR about the benefits. They offer 401k contribution, 17 days PTO in year one, 20 days PTO starting on your one-year anniversary, and flex time to work from home if needed due to sick family members. The PTO is one bucket, with vacation and sick together. This was not a negotiating interview and there was no opportunity to ask about improving the benefits. That opportunity will be after they make an offer. So, right now I earn $65k doing bullshit "work" at a company that lied to me about what my title would be. I was supposed to be a Communications Editor and got downgraded to Technical Writer, which in this role requires taking meeting minutes, sending Outlook meeting invitations, helping create contact lists for off-sites, and other secretarial work. In three weeks I have received no assignments and still don't have a building access badge, but I'm billing the customer. It feels loving dumb to give this up, but I can feel my career stagnating, and I don't want the title of Technical Writer. It doesn't align with my career path as a professional editor. I posted about this in the Career Path thread (last page). I literally read Something Awful, browse Facebook, and apply for jobs, while bringing home $65k a year. The gravy train is about to run out, though, as the transition is almost over and I'm about to become a government secretary. The writing's on the wall. And while the $8k difference is a huge help to my household, my husband supports whatever I want to do. My question is this: What else should I ask for to offset the $8k difference? Assuming they can even get me to $57k and not like $53k. - I don't think PTO is negotiable; the 17 days starting out seems standard. I am planning to ask for more anyway. - I plan to ask for one day a week teleworking, or something like that. Does it look greedy since they already have flex time? - I'm not C-level, so the idea of a signing bonus is hilarious. I'm just not sure what to ask for to make me feel better about taking a hit. This organization sounds really great and I liked the people I interviewed with. I just don't want to feel like I hosed up and lost money just to get out of a dumb situation. My BATNA is just staying in this secretarial job, which is objectively easy but does not align with my desired career path. I am employed, so not in a hurry to take just anything, and can keep applying for jobs elsewhere. If anyone else is in this line of work, I did look up the OES for Editors here. Edit: The offer came in. I think I have to decline it... They will pay $55k and provide 17 days PTO. Thoughts for countering? That's a pay cut of $10k. I don't think I hate my job THAT much. It's just boring and not in line with my sparkly rainbow dreams of being an editor. Betazoid fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Feb 26, 2016 |
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Feb 26, 2016 15:24
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Betazoid posted:So I'm about halfway through this thread (thank you so much to everyone who posted updates and advice; this is an awesome resource) and I am expecting an offer today. Judging by the job description I doubt they're gonna budge. I *wish* I got paid $55k a year to train people how to drive well in MS Word. If I were in a double-income household I would probably take the lower-paying, high-engagement job.
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Feb 26, 2016 17:42
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:Judging by the job description I doubt they're gonna budge. I *wish* I got paid $55k a year to train people how to drive well in MS Word. If I were in a double-income household I would probably take the lower-paying, high-engagement job. Your point is noted, for sure. The lower paying job is the one that suits my skill set. The commutes are the same and the benefits are the same (I'm on my husband's insurance since he's a govie). This thread has been stressing over and over that you'll never get what you don't ask for, so I figure I should counter-offer. How does this look for a counter offer email? I feel like it's too soft, but the job is good, and Jedi Knight Luigi's response is making me nervous about declining it, considering I'm your typical English major type and this is still good money, though it's not *great* in DC. quote:
Betazoid fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Feb 26, 2016 |
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Feb 26, 2016 18:48
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I don't think I would "ask" if it's possible to negotiate. Of course, they'll say no. Instead just state what you want and that you'll have to decline otherwise.
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Feb 26, 2016 21:20
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Betazoid posted:Your point is noted, for sure. The lower paying job is the one that suits my skill set. The commutes are the same and the benefits are the same (I'm on my husband's insurance since he's a govie). This thread has been stressing over and over that you'll never get what you don't ask for, so I figure I should counter-offer. In general, asking if you can negotiate is a huge mistake, as it gives them an opportunity to shut down the negotiations before they even start. You're in a great position, since it sounds like you aren't going to take the job if they don't budge. If that's true, then flat out say you want a certain amount, and if they don't meet it then thank them for their time. If you might still take it, you can be a little softer or make the number a little lower, but I still wouldn't ask if you can negotiate.
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Feb 26, 2016 21:25
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Betazoid posted:Your point is noted, for sure. The lower paying job is the one that suits my skill set. The commutes are the same and the benefits are the same (I'm on my husband's insurance since he's a govie). This thread has been stressing over and over that you'll never get what you don't ask for, so I figure I should counter-offer. Never ask permission to negotiate, just negotiate. Any reply that isn't "Yes" is going to be skimmed for "how much and why" anyway. You can also drop the language about how much less this job offers than your current job. You are staking a position, they only need to assess whether their needs and your needs align, not why you're taking that position. Believe it or not, you've already negotiated! You've given them a number and they came in below it, your options are to take it, ask for more or be happy where you currently work. How easy are jobs like this one to come by? If you turned this job down and went looking for another, would it be more like your current job or this new job? Is this a chance to get a title that improves your future job prospects beyond "technical writer"? If you take this new job, how long before you can move on or up? How "huge" is the 10k for your family? It isn't universally a bad idea to take less money if it provides you tangible benefits like a location you want to live or more time with your family, but a drop in income can make things unexpectedly tight. What are you giving up on the home side to (I assume) improve your career side? It sounds to me like you are not certain how much money you need so you don't know when to trade opportunity for money. They mentioned 53, you asked for 65. They tried to set a high limit by saying 57 and then offering 55. You signaled your ability to negotiate by doing it, so they expect you to continue to do so. If you asked for nothing more than 57, they'd say yes. If you decide that even 62 is too little, then you can stick to your original 65 or ask for 62 and walk if they don't offer it. This whole process gets really easy when you know what you need, want and can get. From where I am sitting your BATNA is very strong since you don't need them. Also, no, it isn't greedy to want your telecommute in writing and separate from a flextime policy. Like money, you can ask and see what they say. Dwight Eisenhower posted:I agree that would be a good idea, especially if Kalenn Istarion and Boot and Rally are also on board. Ooof, I've got so little time these days. Sorry! Boot and Rally fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Feb 26, 2016 |
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Feb 26, 2016 22:05
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:I agree that would be a good idea, especially if Kalenn Istarion and Boot and Rally are also on board. I'm down, although I have less time than I did in the past due to a new job. If you still want to do, PM me and we can sort how to draft the OP. I had a long effort post drafted to talk about negotiating for the job (I do in fact practice what I preach!) but my phone ate it and I'm annoyed and it's late. I'll try again from PC tomorrow.
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Feb 27, 2016 10:36
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ObsidianBeast posted:In general, asking if you can negotiate is a huge mistake, as it gives them an opportunity to shut down the negotiations before they even start. You're in a great position, since it sounds like you aren't going to take the job if they don't budge. If that's true, then flat out say you want a certain amount, and if they don't meet it then thank them for their time. If you might still take it, you can be a little softer or make the number a little lower, but I still wouldn't ask if you can negotiate. Good point. I'm leaning toward taking it. I see the writing on the wall at this job, and even if the money is good, I feel disillusioned with the contracting system. Your tax dollars are being spent on me and four other people sitting in a room reading Facebook and listening to podcasts, FYI. Boot and Rally posted:How easy are jobs like this one to come by? If you turned this job down and went looking for another, would it be more like your current job or this new job? Is this a chance to get a title that improves your future job prospects beyond "technical writer"? If you take this new job, how long before you can move on or up? Jobs like this are fairly rare, though not impossible to find. Rare enough, actually, that I applied for this job in February 2013 when it last opened and didn't get hired because of lack of documentation QA experience. When I saw it reopen on Indeed or whatever, I recognized it immediately. The title of Editor is immensely better than Technical Writer in terms of what I want to do. This sets me up for working with presses and publishers rather than contracting firms. I don't know how long it would be before I could more on or up, though. At this job, there are two people above me, a Senior Editor and a Production Editor, and below me there are an assortment of college-age interns. I could potentially move into the Senior Editor role if he left, or leverage this into a more literary job at a publisher. Boot and Rally posted:How "huge" is the 10k for your family? It isn't universally a bad idea to take less money if it provides you tangible benefits like a location you want to live or more time with your family, but a drop in income can make things unexpectedly tight. What are you giving up on the home side to (I assume) improve your career side? It sounds to me like you are not certain how much money you need so you don't know when to trade opportunity for money. My husband's career path is on an upward trajectory and he's earning enough for (technically) both of us to live on. When my income jumped from $53,500 to $65,000 in November, we basically started living off his pay alone (with a bit of supplement from mine) and sticking my income in a savings account in prep for selling our home and upgrading to something nicer in spring 2017. I'm not out buying shoes; it's improving our ability to bank for the future. It's not life or death to drop back to the mid 50s, but I got really used to being able to contribute so much to our savings. We'll still do the same thing with any income I get as long as we can afford to, but it will just be a bit slower to get to our goal. Boot and Rally posted:Also, no, it isn't greedy to want your telecommute in writing and separate from a flextime policy. Like money, you can ask and see what they say. They already declined the telework day since they allow flextime if you have a sick spouse/kid. The recruiter went back to the hiring manager to see if they can get me more PTO (I asked for 19 rather than 17 days). Even if all of my asks are declined (telework, PTO, more $), I will probably still take this job. The gravy train is leaving the station at my current job and I don't want to sink any more time into it when I could be building a good reputation as an editor. Thanks, everyone. Your posts throughout this thread were super helpful and I really appreciate your time. Betazoid fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Feb 27, 2016 |
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Feb 27, 2016 17:05
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Betazoid posted:Good point. I'm leaning toward taking it. I see the writing on the wall at this job, and even if the money is good, I feel disillusioned with the contracting system. Your tax dollars are being spent on me and four other people sitting in a room reading Facebook and listening to podcasts, FYI. There are two types of people who encounter the federal contracting system, those who are made uncomfortable with how the whole process works and those who profit from it.
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Feb 27, 2016 18:42
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Betazoid posted:They already declined the telework day since they allow flextime if you have a sick spouse/kid. The recruiter went back to the hiring manager to see if they can get me more PTO (I asked for 19 rather than 17 days). Even if all of my asks are declined (telework, PTO, more $), I will probably still take this job. The gravy train is leaving the station at my current job and I don't want to sink any more time into it when I could be building a good reputation as an editor.
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Feb 27, 2016 21:17
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There's a good chance that I'll be getting a phone call soon to talk about pay for an internship I'm trying to score. The interview went fairly well, I think, and I'll hopefully be hearing from them in the near future. The HR person said she would call to specifically figure out what pay we're looking at, so I've been doing some research to make sure I don't get shafted. Generally, how, uh, optimistic are glassdoor's salary estimates? Internships for the specific company are shown between $10-20/h. The low end being HR, and the high end being software dev/engineering. I'm going for an IT help desk position, which doesn't have a specific entry on glassdoor. The generic "intern" pay is about $16. Other companies show $10-15 for help desk interns. Right now I'm working a decently-paying retail job, but I'd really love the internship. It's pretty much exactly what I want and it would be a great learning experience. I just really don't want to short myself on pay, especially because I might have to work fewer hours than the retail gig gives me. Any advice? Or is this a classic case of getting them to throw out a number first and going from there? Does anyone know what pay range these kinds of positions are in? Edit: fwiw I haven't disclosed my current pay, and I have thought about what the bare minimum for me to accept would be. The Earl of ToeJam fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Feb 29, 2016 |
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Feb 29, 2016 00:39
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Sounds like you've already thought about the right things. You have a sense of the range, your walk-away price, and non-monetary things (job in your field, long-term career). Wait to make sure they've offered and then you've got the tools to negotiate for what works. I'm sure the thread would be happy to comment should you want to post the details of the offer if you get it.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:48
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Betazoid posted:I'm not C-level, so the idea of a signing bonus is hilarious. Am I the only one who found this perplexing? I report to someone, who reports to someone, who reports to someone C-level and was offered a signing bonus when I started. I think it's an easy way for them to offer something up in a negotiation that doesn't cause them any HR issues if you're near the top of band for your title and doesn't impact the monthly operating costs going forward.
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Feb 29, 2016 07:00
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KernelSlanders posted:Am I the only one who found this perplexing? I report to someone, who reports to someone, who reports to someone C-level and was offered a signing bonus when I started. I think it's an easy way for them to offer something up in a negotiation that doesn't cause them any HR issues if you're near the top of band for your title and doesn't impact the monthly operating costs going forward. This is heavily dependent on field and office culture.
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Feb 29, 2016 09:31
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Funddevi posted:There's a good chance that I'll be getting a phone call soon to talk about pay for an internship I'm trying to score. The interview went fairly well, I think, and I'll hopefully be hearing from them in the near future. The HR person said she would call to specifically figure out what pay we're looking at, so I've been doing some research to make sure I don't get shafted. It depends. I worked for a company that did help desk for two big clients and one half of the building got paid $15, the other half got $10.50 for ostensibly the same job. And these were full time non-interns. It depends on what the client is willing to pay. And also we had an office in the Phillipines that paid way less but more work was starting to go there.
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Feb 29, 2016 16:59
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KernelSlanders posted:Am I the only one who found this perplexing? I report to someone, who reports to someone, who reports to someone C-level and was offered a signing bonus when I started. I think it's an easy way for them to offer something up in a negotiation that doesn't cause them any HR issues if you're near the top of band for your title and doesn't impact the monthly operating costs going forward. I have never heard of someone less than VP level get a signing bonus. My professional experience has been in IT business development and education; Is it really standard for proposal writers, developers, sysadmins, business analysts, etc. to get sign-on bonuses? I thought that was for the most senior of the senior, not someone who has two years of Java experience or whatever. I feel like I'd get laughed out of the room if I asked for that as a business development person or whatever.
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Feb 29, 2016 17:09
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I've gotten a signing bonus at my last two IT/software jobs. Nothing too extravagant, but the equivalent of 1-2 paychecks worth up front. They were not relocation bonuses or anything contingent upon staying with the company for x amount of time, just a straight no-strings attached cash bonus up front. I don't know if it is necessarily commonplace, and it wasn't part of the original offer, but it is definitely a thing that you can negotiate. When I was negotiating for my current job a few years ago I was pushing really hard for more vacation time. The salary after one back and forth was agreeable to me, but I wanted more time off. They ultimately wouldn't budge on that, but as a result of pushing on it I ended up with a further ~10% salary increase and a signing bonus equivalent to about one month's pay. Joke's on them since I'm able to take unpaid time off if I run out of vacation and they're paying me more than the 1 more week I wanted was "worth" in dollars. Plus they bumped everyone in the company from 2 to 3 weeks vacation a year after I started because they were having recruiting difficulties with only 2 weeks. 
Guinness fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Feb 29, 2016 |
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Feb 29, 2016 19:04
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What's the ladder for vacation time with IT related positions? Like every 3-5 years worth of experience I should ask for +1 week when interviewing? Traditional progression seems to be +1 for every 5 years with a company, but that's some 1950s baloney, especially now that pensions are non existent and company loyalty is very rare these days.
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Feb 29, 2016 19:13
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I think it will vary a lot depending on location, experience, and your specific sector. From what I've seen looking at mid-level and up (non-startup) software engineering and related jobs (dev, devops, sdet, etc.) in the Seattle area, anything less than 3 weeks vacation is below average these days. And that's with sick time separate from vacation (usually 5-10 days/year). Lumping it all together into "PTO" is bullshit IMO, unless it's like 4+ weeks when combined. It does seem that a lot of companies still have some sort of tenure-based sliding scale that might give you an extra week after 5 years of tenure, for example, but the baseline has been set pretty high because it's an employee's market these days and places are trying to keep retention up. Losing people over subpar benefits and vacation policies is way more expensive than constant employee churn. I realize that's probably far above average at the national level, but in tech hub cities it seems like the new norm. Guinness fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Feb 29, 2016 |
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Feb 29, 2016 19:25
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I have a few questions about negotiating with my current company. Here's the quick background: I work in the Midwest and have a decent position in IT. My spouse and I are expecting our first and want to be close to family. I have some former colleagues at a company that is halfway across the country but near one set of family. There is an open position that is perfect for me and we were very much set on moving but I recently went down for an on-site interview and really disliked the surrounding communities as a place to raise a child/live. The interview went really well and an offer is on the way but I will eventually decline. However, I was thinking of taking the offer back to my current company to do the once-in-a-company ask for more. I have received yearly raises but never explicitly asked for one because, until the last few years, I have also had promotions which have significantly bumped up my salary. The company also has a reputation for not handing out anything but cost of living raises (mostly). Soooooo, can I use this offer as leverage? If my current company calls my bluff I'm not leaving, so I don't want to get burned. Of course, I don't plan on telling them the location of the offer. Tl;dr. Anyone have any advice for using an out of state offer that I don't plan on taking to try and get a raise at my current position? Thanks thread, I've learned so much from you already! *Edit for clarity Fireside Nut fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Mar 1, 2016 |
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Mar 1, 2016 02:52
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Fireside Nut posted:Tl;dr. Anyone have any advice for using an out of state offer that I don't plan on taking to try and get a raise at my current position? Quite frankly, an offer you have no intention of taking is a crappy BATNA, and you'd likely be expected to share the details (including the company) to compel a matching offer. If you want to make more money, I'd recommend testing the waters with companies in locations you'd actually consider accepting. If you don't mind me asking, where is the offering company located?
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Mar 1, 2016 03:48
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I'm going to buy my first house, and after several months of searching finally found a great home. They're asking $480k. House has been sitting for 300 days---probably due to the high price. Also, the area is remote (I'm increasing my commute to 50 minutes so that I can have an acre of land). My research on comps and the real estate agent's research both line up---my target price is $450k with a walk away price of $454k. This considers relevant similar properties, condition of the house, upgrades they've made, etc. I have the cash to put down up to 20% plus closing costs (~$20-$22k). I'm under no time pressure and can easily walk away. How do real estate negotiations typically proceed? I am preapproved for $900k, and my lender won't give me a letter with no preapproval value listed, so I am confident I should go in with the letter listing my target price ($450k) since this can be modified at any time. But do you roll in with a best and final offer right off the bat and let it sit? Do you make a lowball offer expecting to meet in the middle? I was definitely going to communicate a rationale for whatever offer I make---comps, house quality, upgrades, etc; however, I don't want to be dismissed as not serious off the bat if I come in at $420 on a $480 advertised price even if to me it'd be pretty clear (if I was the seller) what my target price is based on that offer. Also, what's a reasonable offer relative to advertised prices? HGTV shows suggest that if a house has been sitting for 14 days, let alone 300, you can drop that price by $20k. The internet suggests 5% to 10% below advertised is acceptable which aligns with what I'm suggesting. Finally, in this area, it consistently appears that closing prices are 95% to 96% of advertised prices. I feel confident with salary negotiations and car negotiations, but this is a new game for me. edit: I felt this thread was more appropriate for my question than the real estate thread. Thanks for any advice! Sunny Side Up fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Mar 1, 2016 |
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Mar 1, 2016 12:19
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Fireside Nut posted:Soooooo, can I use this offer as leverage? If my current company calls my bluff I'm not leaving, so I don't want to get burned. Of course, I don't plan on telling them the location of the offer.
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Mar 1, 2016 13:30
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Fireside Nut posted:I have a few questions about negotiating with my current company. Here's the quick background: I'd say be very very careful in trying to lever an external offer for a pay raise without being fully ready to take said offer. If you show and balk you then have no credibility and you'll be in a very poor negotiating position for the rest of your time at that company. Sunny Side Up posted:I'm going to buy my first house, and after several months of searching finally found a great home. Not really the right thread, but I have a modest amount of experience and general negotiating strategy applies. If the seller has been willing to leave the property on the market for 300 days I'm not sure they're going to be all that inclined to drop their price now. You've done all the right things - real estate negotiations can go in many ways but in this case, given the person has sat on it for that long, I'd put your best foot forward and just move on if they don't bite.
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Mar 2, 2016 06:11
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Kalenn Istarion posted:I'd say be very very careful in trying to lever an external offer for a pay raise without being fully ready to take said offer. If you show and balk you then have no credibility and you'll be in a very poor negotiating position for the rest of your time at that company. Thank you to all who responded. I figured it was a bad move so I'm glad I asked. I think I'll take swenblack's advice and simply ask for a raise without leveraging the outside offer.
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Mar 3, 2016 00:52
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Fireside Nut posted:Thank you to all who responded. I figured it was a bad move so I'm glad I asked. I think I'll take swenblack's advice and simply ask for a raise without leveraging the outside offer. Forgot to add: Good luck and tell us how it goes! swenblack fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Mar 3, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 03:13
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Kalenn Istarion posted:Sounds like you've already thought about the right things. You have a sense of the range, your walk-away price, and non-monetary things (job in your field, long-term career). Wait to make sure they've offered and then you've got the tools to negotiate for what works. I'm sure the thread would be happy to comment should you want to post the details of the offer if you get it. Thanks. I don't have an official offer yet, but the HR person told me how their wage structure works for interns, in a very "take it or leave it" manner. It's a little lower that what I was hoping for, but still more than I'm making now, and with practically-guaranteed raises at the end of every school year. I'll definitely go for it if I get the offer. At this point I'm just waiting to hear back after they call my references. Cheers!
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Mar 4, 2016 05:54
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Trying to dot some i's and cross some t's let's draft a new negotiation thread OP: Title: The Negotiation Thread: Home off the range Body: Negotiation is one of the better ways to improve your compensation and progress your career while engaging in the less privileged side of wage slavery. Goons employing negotiation tactics during salary negotiations frequently end up gaining multiple thousands of dollars a year in additional compensation, more paid time off, and more valuable benefits. In many cases, simply asking and being confident is enough to carry you to victory, but it's important to understand a little bit of negotiation theory and a few hard and fast rules to succeed! BATNA: The Best Alternative to a Negotiated Alternative Pretty much every post that offers advice in this thread will start talking about the BATNAs involved as Kalenn Istarion got us to coalesce around this useful linguistic concept. Simply put, the BATNA is what will happen if one or both parties walk away from a compromised deal. When you have a good BATNA, you can demand more from the other party. When the other party has a good BATNA, they can demand more from you. All negotiation centers around the BATNAs involved, and it is important to understand that both you and your prospective employer each have a BATNA. A good negotiator is not only contemplating their own BATNA, but is also contemplating the other party's BATNA. As an example, if you have applied to a job at two different companies, and one (let's call them Generous) is offering 10% more than the other (Stingy), then your BATNA with Stingy is to walk away and and take the offer from Generous. This gives you more leverage when negotiating with Stingy; if they walk away and refuse to meet your demands then you have an objectively better alternative! However it also means that you don't have as good a BATNA with Generous, as if they decide to walk away you are immediately left only with the worse opportunity available from Stingy. If you frame your negotiations in terms of BATNA you may not always get exactly what you want, but you'll get close to the best available. THE RULES 1. Never tell a new employer what you are currently making: This information is not relevant to their offer, and it is not relevant to their other options. Employers ask for this information to anchor your expectations around what you are currently making. If an employer is asking for this information, politely decline, and offer instead to talk about what kind of compensation you are looking for from them. If they absolutely insist on you telling them what you used to make, you may want to walk away and find another opportunity. 2. Try not to lead in disclosing a target salary: If you can get an offered salary from a prospective employer, instead of offering a salary you would take the job at, then you will often come up with a better outcome. Whoever states a hard and fast number first will anchor the further discussion in the context of that number. If you state a number out the gate, then the employer will either accept that offer, or try to push down from that point. If the employer states a number out the gate, then you will either accept that number, or try to push it higher. Establishing a floor and going up has better outcomes than establishing a ceiling and going down! 3. Do not give a salary range: A salary range tells an employer three things: You don't know how to negotiate, that you're not holding a firm position, and that you'll accept the bottom of that salary range. What possible value is there in you telling an employer a salary range instead of telling them the number at the top of the range? For the employer it puts a cap on how much they might have to pay you, it tells them that you're volunteering to be bullied down to the bottom of that range, and that you really don't know what you're doing. For you it does nothing good. 4. Be thoughtful about what information you give the other party: This relates to rule 1 above. Information that you give an employer lets them more comprehensively understand your BATNA, and if that information removes uncertainty to show them that you have a worse BATNA than they might have thought, they'll get more aggressive. Conversely, information that demonstrates you have a better BATNA demonstrates you will be more willing to walk away and go with your BATNA. 5. Know when you've won: It is important to know when you've won. When you set out to negotiate, have a clear goal in mind, and if the other party is willing to meet that goal, then you are probably best served in most cases to agree to the deal then and there. You are taking a certain victory that meets your goal at the outset over risking coming off greedy. (And if you can't stop somewhere and be satisfied, you ARE being greedy!) 6. The best time to find a new job is when you have one you don't already hate: This is self evident if you think about BATNA's, if you hate your current job then literally anything else is possibly better, and it is very hard for you to walk away and keep working at your job you hate. Get ahead of the ball and start looking when things look bad, don't wait for them to look hopeless. 7. Practice makes perfect: A lot of good negotiating comes from confidence and consistency. If you aren't used to talking about money, let alone demanding it forcefully, then it can feel awkward to have a discussion about your future salary. If you negotiate enough eventually you'll get good at it and it will feel natural. The best way to practice is to go on interviews and get to the offer stage. Getting to the offer stage does NOT represent a commitment on your part to accept. But if you do it frequently enough you'll start feeling less awkward an be able to present a smoother and more confident image that WILL help you get what you want! Lots of people have provided good advice in previous negotiating threads, but it's worth calling out specifically swenblack, Kalenn Istarion, and Boot and Rally for their consistently great advice and willingness to help! Thanks goons! Dwight Eisenhower fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Mar 4, 2016 |
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Mar 4, 2016 17:28
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I'd put number 3 in all caps, but that's just me 
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Mar 4, 2016 17:32
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