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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:I'd put number 3 in all caps, but that's just me 
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Mar 4, 2016 17:40
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I think some examples of deflection on salary talk and such would be helpful for an OP
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Mar 4, 2016 18:56
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Small nitpick but BATNA is Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement. Also I wonder if any advice is affected when dealing with an outside recruiter as opposed to dealing with the company directly (particularly #3). In my experience, recruiters are more insistent on getting a salary range so you're not "wasting their time."
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Mar 4, 2016 20:17
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Trying to dot some i's and cross some t's let's draft a new negotiation thread OP: I would add: Rule 8: Consider the whole package. You don't want to accept $5k more a year only to find out you get 2 weeks less vacation. This also gets you more room to negotiate, maybe the other party can't or won't come up in salary, but a week more of vacation or a signing bonus or something else is totally appropriate. When you understand your offerer's total position, you can get more of what you want and less of what you don't. Rule 9: At the end of negotiations, if you both accept, get everything in writing.
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Mar 4, 2016 21:34
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Dwight I'll post some edits later tonight. Vague thought I've been having - should the new thread be negotiations on salaries specifically or negotiations generally? We've mostly focused on salaries in this thread and there's a lot to be said for being focused rather than omnibus, but a great deal of what we talk about here has wider application.
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Mar 4, 2016 23:30
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Trying to dot some i's and cross some t's let's draft a new negotiation thread OP: I'd suggest for a first point: Why negotiate?: The easiest way to get a significant raise is to change jobs. There is never a better opportunity to negotiate a higher salary than when you are handed a job offer that you have not yet accepted. In addition, two common biases come into play. First impression bias means that people will tend to perceive you as being at the level you start out at, no matter how long you work at a company. By negotiating a better starting salary or title, you're perceived as more competent from the start. In addition, this explains why you're more likely to get a big raise when you change jobs than if you stay in your current job. The other bias is a form of confirmation bias. If you convince someone to pay you more money, they're going to look for reasons why you're worth more money. It's backwards, but because of this the people at the top of the salary range get the largest raises on average. MickeyFinn posted:Rule 9: At the end of negotiations, if you both accept, get everything in writing. That reminds me. Mention the trick to get things in writing. If you have a conversation with someone, e-mail them afterwards and say, "Just so we're both clear, this is what we discussed....". Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Mar 5, 2016 |
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Mar 5, 2016 00:24
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Looks good to me! I'll add some success stories from this thread if you make the OP.
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Mar 5, 2016 00:31
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I'd also link to this, it's specifically tailored for one industry but still pretty good advice: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ It's very lengthy but a great read.
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Mar 5, 2016 02:55
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Unless there's objections to it, I'll continue spamming the thread with iterations of the prospective OP to reflect suggestions and edits until we collectively feel like it's a good thing. I'll also encourage people to chime in on the new thread with their personal experience reports and advice to get us strong momentum and get readers enthusiastic about negotiating themselves. I'll be able to chip in right away because yesterday I just accepted an offer that entails a $25k raise.  Kalenn Istarion posted:Dwight I'll post some edits later tonight. I think it makes sense for us to start off with a head of steam focused on salary negotiations but if people want to talk about negotiating other things I don't think it'd be outside our bailiwick. It's just that salary negotiation is the one and only opportunity many people will have to engage in material, adversarial negotiations. Title: The Negotiation Thread: Home off the range Body: Negotiation is one of the better ways to improve your compensation and progress your career while engaging in the less privileged side of wage slavery. Goons employing negotiation tactics during salary negotiations frequently end up gaining multiple thousands of dollars a year in additional compensation, more paid time off, and more valuable benefits. In many cases, simply asking and being confident is enough to carry you to victory, but it's important to understand a little bit of negotiation theory and a few hard and fast rules to succeed! Why negotiate? The easiest way to get a significant raise is to change jobs. There is never a better opportunity to negotiate a higher salary than when you are handed a job offer that you have not yet accepted. In addition, two common biases come into play. First impression bias means that people will tend to perceive you as being at the level you start out at, no matter how long you work at a company. By negotiating a better starting salary or title, you're perceived as more competent from the start. In addition, this explains why you're more likely to get a big raise when you change jobs than if you stay in your current job. The other bias is a form of confirmation bias. If you convince someone to pay you more money, they're going to look for reasons why you're worth more money. It's backwards, but because of this the people at the top of the salary range get the largest raises on average. BATNA: The Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement Pretty much every post that offers advice in this thread will start talking about the BATNAs involved as Kalenn Istarion got us to coalesce around this useful linguistic concept. Simply put, the BATNA is what will happen if one or both parties walk away from a compromised deal. When you have a good BATNA, you can demand more from the other party. When the other party has a good BATNA, they can demand more from you. All negotiation centers around the BATNAs involved, and it is important to understand that both you and your prospective employer each have a BATNA. A good negotiator is not only contemplating their own BATNA, but is also contemplating the other party's BATNA. As an example, if you have applied to a job at two different companies, and one (let's call them Generous) is offering 10% more than the other (Stingy), then your BATNA with Stingy is to walk away and and take the offer from Generous. This gives you more leverage when negotiating with Stingy; if they walk away and refuse to meet your demands then you have an objectively better alternative! However it also means that you don't have as good a BATNA with Generous, as if they decide to walk away you are immediately left only with the worse opportunity available from Stingy. If you frame your negotiations in terms of BATNA you may not always get exactly what you want, but you'll get close to the best available. THE RULES 1. Never tell a new employer what you are currently making: This information is not relevant to their offer, and it is not relevant to their other options. Employers ask for this information to anchor your expectations around what you are currently making. If an employer is asking for this information, politely decline, and offer instead to talk about what kind of compensation you are looking for from them. If they absolutely insist on you telling them what you used to make, you may want to walk away and find another opportunity. 2. Try not to lead in disclosing a target salary: If you can get an offered salary from a prospective employer, instead of offering a salary you would take the job at, then you will often come up with a better outcome. Whoever states a hard and fast number first will anchor the further discussion in the context of that number. If you state a number out the gate, then the employer will either accept that offer, or try to push down from that point. If the employer states a number out the gate, then you will either accept that number, or try to push it higher. Establishing a floor and going up has better outcomes than establishing a ceiling and going down! 3. DO NOT GIVE A SALARY RANGE: A salary range tells an employer three things: You don't know how to negotiate, that you're not holding a firm position, and that you'll accept the bottom of that salary range. What possible value is there in you telling an employer a salary range instead of telling them the number at the top of the range? For the employer it puts a cap on how much they might have to pay you, it tells them that you're volunteering to be bullied down to the bottom of that range, and that you really don't know what you're doing. For you it does nothing good. 4. Be thoughtful about what information you give the other party: This relates to rule 1 above. Information that you give an employer lets them more comprehensively understand your BATNA, and if that information removes uncertainty to show them that you have a worse BATNA than they might have thought, they'll get more aggressive. Conversely, information that demonstrates you have a better BATNA demonstrates you will be more willing to walk away and go with your BATNA. 5. Know when you've won: It is important to know when you've won. When you set out to negotiate, have a clear goal in mind, and if the other party is willing to meet that goal, then you are probably best served in most cases to agree to the deal then and there. You are taking a certain victory that meets your goal at the outset over risking coming off greedy. (And if you can't stop somewhere and be satisfied, you ARE being greedy!) 6. The best time to find a new job is when you have one you don't already hate: This is self evident if you think about BATNA's, if you hate your current job then literally anything else is possibly better, and it is very hard for you to walk away and keep working at your job you hate. Get ahead of the ball and start looking when things look bad, don't wait for them to look hopeless. 7. Practice makes perfect: A lot of good negotiating comes from confidence and consistency. If you aren't used to talking about money, let alone demanding it forcefully, then it can feel awkward to have a discussion about your future salary. If you negotiate enough eventually you'll get good at it and it will feel natural. The best way to practice is to go on interviews and get to the offer stage. Getting to the offer stage does NOT represent a commitment on your part to accept. But if you do it frequently enough you'll start feeling less awkward an be able to present a smoother and more confident image that WILL help you get what you want! 8: Consider the whole package: You don't want to accept $5k more a year only to find out you get 2 weeks less vacation. This also gets you more room to negotiate, maybe the other party can't or won't come up in salary, but a week more of vacation or a signing bonus or something else is totally appropriate. When you understand your offerer's total position, you can get more of what you want and less of what you don't. 9: At the end of negotiations, if you both accept, get everything in writing: Ideally everything will be presented to you in the form of a written offer letter. If it is, consider the offer to be ONLY the contents of that written offer letter, because that is what your employer will do. If you need adjustments, get a new offer letter that reflects those adjustments! Additionally, some people who are perfectly reasonable to work with and will grant you great opportunities, yet are reluctant to use their written communication skills. If you get something verbally agreed to on the phone, write it down as you're conversing. At the end of the conversation write an email that outlines everything discussed on the call, leading off with something like "Thanks for all your help! Just to confirm what we spoke about on the phone: <your notes go here!>" Make sure to get a response that confirms what you wrote down! Lots of people have provided good advice in previous negotiating threads, but it's worth calling out the following goons specifically for their consistently great advice, willingness to help, and contributions to this OP: Jedi Knight Luigi, Chaucer, Dik Hz, MickeyFinn, swenblack, Kalenn Istarion, and Boot and Rally Thanks goons!
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Mar 5, 2016 16:11
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One important point that's currently missing from the op is to negotiate all terms as a package. If you allow the counterparty to negotiate piecemeal then they can grind you on benefits, then Vacay, then pay, etc. If you negotiate as a package then you are in a position to talk about trade offs - if the raw salary is really important to keep low maybe you can trade more Vacay or other non-cash compensation for a cut in pay (within reason).
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Mar 8, 2016 09:10
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Looking really good. Seconding Kalenn Istarion's notion that it's important to look at the whole package. If I get time I can write a post expanding on the part of "don't ever tell them your current salary" and "what's your salary requirements?" issues. Edit: Having given notice about one's resignation have its benefits, so here we go. Tear into it goons. ================================= I’d like to expand on the “Don’t tell them your current salary” and “Don’t give a number too early in the process.” “Don’t tell them your current salary” First, a lot of employers, and an even larger ratio of recruiters, can be very insistent on knowing your current salary. This is very important knowledge to them, as it gives them several benefits.
“Don’t give a number too early in the process.” A common thing for an interviewer is to ask for a salary requirement early in the process. This makes little sense from the candidate's point of view. For the candidate to give a number, he would need to know the details about the entire package. For instance, in my locale, pension comes on top of the salary, and can be anywhere from 0-20%. I’ve had a lot of interviewers request my salary demands before giving me this information, which is just... strange. Either make sure to get all the details first, or, if pressed, give a high enough number to satisfy you in the worst case. A wiggle-out from this is the "Oh you're talking gross salary, I though we were talking net. Well in that case, my demand is $X.) I often put down three numbers on my notepad before the interview. My bottom dollar (“less than this and I’ll walk”), my happy medium (“this’ll be a solid number”) and my sunshine scenario (“this is where I’ll sign up right here right now.”) and the less I know, the more conservative I make the numbers. bolind fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 09:35
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Yeah, there should probably be a post about recruiters, but I'm not sure it should go in the OP. Recruiters are not your friend. They get paid when they close, so its in their best interest to get your to say yes for as cheap as possible. Because that makes them more likely to place you in a position.
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Mar 9, 2016 06:38
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Kalenn Istarion posted:One important point that's currently missing from the op is to negotiate all terms as a package. If you allow the counterparty to negotiate piecemeal then they can grind you on benefits, then Vacay, then pay, etc. If you negotiate as a package then you are in a position to talk about trade offs - if the raw salary is really important to keep low maybe you can trade more Vacay or other non-cash compensation for a cut in pay (within reason). Covered by Rule 8 (now rule 9) Adding Bolind's "salary delay" input as new rule 4 (rules 4-9 move down), and adding a tactics section below the rules. I'd like to encourage all feedback to focus on improving what is present instead of expanding the content of our prospective OP from this point forward. If you think we should add something to the OP ask yourself "Is this information that people ask about constantly, get wrong constantly, or ignore constantly?" If so let's add it, but if not let's tack it on as follow up posts. Also I really like the idea of adding a "running total" of how much additional compensation people have gotten from negotiating but could see myself lapsing on keeping it up to date. Maybe someone who's more detail oriented than myself would like to do a follow up post on the first page with that info? VERSION 3 Title: The Negotiation Thread: Home off the range Body: Negotiation is one of the better ways to improve your compensation and progress your career while engaging in the less privileged side of wage slavery. Goons employing negotiation tactics during salary negotiations frequently end up gaining multiple thousands of dollars a year in additional compensation, more paid time off, and more valuable benefits. In many cases, simply asking and being confident is enough to carry you to victory, but it's important to understand a little bit of negotiation theory and a few hard and fast rules to succeed! Why negotiate? The easiest way to get a significant raise is to change jobs. There is never a better opportunity to negotiate a higher salary than when you are handed a job offer that you have not yet accepted. In addition, two common biases come into play. First impression bias means that people will tend to perceive you as being at the level you start out at, no matter how long you work at a company. By negotiating a better starting salary or title, you're perceived as more competent from the start. In addition, this explains why you're more likely to get a big raise when you change jobs than if you stay in your current job. The other bias is a form of confirmation bias. If you convince someone to pay you more money, they're going to look for reasons why you're worth more money. It's backwards, but because of this the people at the top of the salary range get the largest raises on average. BATNA: The Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement Pretty much every post that offers advice in this thread will start talking about the BATNAs involved as Kalenn Istarion got us to coalesce around this useful linguistic concept. Simply put, the BATNA is what will happen if one or both parties walk away from a compromised deal. When you have a good BATNA, you can demand more from the other party. When the other party has a good BATNA, they can demand more from you. All negotiation centers around the BATNAs involved, and it is important to understand that both you and your prospective employer each have a BATNA. A good negotiator is not only contemplating their own BATNA, but is also contemplating the other party's BATNA. As an example, if you have applied to a job at two different companies, and one (let's call them Generous) is offering 10% more than the other (Stingy), then your BATNA with Stingy is to walk away and and take the offer from Generous. This gives you more leverage when negotiating with Stingy; if they walk away and refuse to meet your demands then you have an objectively better alternative! However it also means that you don't have as good a BATNA with Generous, as if they decide to walk away you are immediately left only with the worse opportunity available from Stingy. If you frame your negotiations in terms of BATNA you may not always get exactly what you want, but you'll get close to the best available. THE RULES 1. Never tell a new employer what you are currently making: This information is not relevant to their offer, and it is not relevant to their other options. Employers ask for this information to anchor your expectations around what you are currently making. If an employer is asking for this information, politely decline, and offer instead to talk about what kind of compensation you are looking for from them. If they absolutely insist on you telling them what you used to make, you may want to walk away and find another opportunity. See Tactics below for more discussion about this. 2. Try not to lead in disclosing a target salary: If you can get an offered salary from a prospective employer, instead of offering a salary you would take the job at, then you will often come up with a better outcome. Whoever states a hard and fast number first will anchor the further discussion in the context of that number. If you state a number out the gate, then the employer will either accept that offer, or try to push down from that point. If the employer states a number out the gate, then you will either accept that number, or try to push it higher. Establishing a floor and going up has better outcomes than establishing a ceiling and going down! 3. DO NOT GIVE A SALARY RANGE: A salary range tells an employer three things: You don't know how to negotiate, that you're not holding a firm position, and that you'll accept the bottom of that salary range. What possible value is there in you telling an employer a salary range instead of telling them the number at the top of the range? For the employer it puts a cap on how much they might have to pay you, it tells them that you're volunteering to be bullied down to the bottom of that range, and that you really don't know what you're doing. For you it does nothing good. 4. Try to gracefully move salary negotiation as late in the process as possible: A common thing is for an interviewer to ask for a salary requirement early in the process. This makes little sense from your point of view. For you to give a number, you would need to know the details about the entire package. In bolind's working environment, pension comes on top of the salary, and can be anywhere from 0-20%. Many interviewers request salary demands before granting information about their other tangible benefits, which is just... strange. Discussing a salary out the gate can be a way for an employer to reject you outright, when if they sat down and found out more about you they'd be happy to pay your requested target. If they have a salary number in mind while interviewing, it colors every interaction and evaluation with the question "is this person worth what they are asking?" It is better to have created a compelling case for why you should be hired so that your prospective employer can vividly imagine you being a part of the team, and then attaching a price tag to that reality. 5. Be thoughtful about what information you give the other party: This relates to rule 1 above. Information that you give an employer lets them more comprehensively understand your BATNA, and if that information removes uncertainty to show them that you have a worse BATNA than they might have thought, they'll get more aggressive. Conversely, information that demonstrates you have a better BATNA demonstrates you will be more willing to walk away and go with your BATNA. 6. Know when you've won: It is important to know when you've won. When you set out to negotiate, have a clear goal in mind, and if the other party is willing to meet that goal, then you are probably best served in most cases to agree to the deal then and there. You are taking a certain victory that meets your goal at the outset over risking coming off greedy. (And if you can't stop somewhere and be satisfied, you ARE being greedy!) 7. The best time to find a new job is when you have one you don't already hate: This is self evident if you think about BATNA's, if you hate your current job then literally anything else is possibly better, and it is very hard for you to walk away and keep working at your job you hate. Get ahead of the ball and start looking when things look bad, don't wait for them to look hopeless. 8. Practice makes perfect: A lot of good negotiating comes from confidence and consistency. If you aren't used to talking about money, let alone demanding it forcefully, then it can feel awkward to have a discussion about your future salary. If you negotiate enough eventually you'll get good at it and it will feel natural. The best way to practice is to go on interviews and get to the offer stage. Getting to the offer stage does NOT represent a commitment on your part to accept. But if you do it frequently enough you'll start feeling less awkward an be able to present a smoother and more confident image that WILL help you get what you want! 9: Consider the whole package: You don't want to accept $5k more a year only to find out you get 2 weeks less vacation. This also gets you more room to negotiate, maybe the other party can't or won't come up in salary, but a week more of vacation or a signing bonus or something else is totally appropriate. When you understand your offerer's total position, you can get more of what you want and less of what you don't. 10: At the end of negotiations, if you both accept, get everything in writing: Ideally everything will be presented to you in the form of a written offer letter. If it is, consider the offer to be ONLY the contents of that written offer letter, because that is what your employer will do. If you need adjustments, get a new offer letter that reflects those adjustments! Additionally, some people who are perfectly reasonable to work with and will grant you great opportunities, yet are reluctant to use their written communication skills. If you get something verbally agreed to on the phone, write it down as you're conversing. At the end of the conversation write an email that outlines everything discussed on the call, leading off with something like "Thanks for all your help! Just to confirm what we spoke about on the phone: <your notes go here!>" Make sure to get a response that confirms what you wrote down! Tactics It's easy to have a list of rules, but putting them into practice can be difficult. One of the hardest challenges you will frequently encounter when interviewing for a job is a person who wants your previous salary. In extreme cases you might have to be ready to terminate all interviewing in order to keep this information held close. Whether you fold and grant this information, or get up and walk is up to you, but I will say this: in all of my experiences interviewing I've never met an interviewer who won't flinch and accept you not disclosing your present salary if you stick to your guns. For the interviewers who will happily tank a job application over you not telling them what you currently make, that opportunity might not be that great. bolind adds: bolind posted:Don't tell them your current salary Lots of people have provided good advice in previous negotiating threads, but it's worth calling out the following goons specifically for their consistently great advice, willingness to help, and contributions to this OP: bolind, Jedi Knight Luigi, Chaucer, Dik Hz, MickeyFinn, swenblack, Kalenn Istarion, and Boot and Rally Thanks goons! Dwight Eisenhower fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Mar 9, 2016 |
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Mar 9, 2016 15:11
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Google docs spreadsheet could work for a running total.
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Mar 9, 2016 16:17
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Google docs spreadsheet could work for a running total. I'll add a link to OP if you want to set it up!
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Mar 9, 2016 18:46
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:I'll add a link to OP if you want to set it up! poo poo I knew that was coming. I'll draft something up in a day or two.
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Mar 9, 2016 20:01
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Two things: First -- thank you thread. You've helped me get an almost 70% increase in my salary over the past two years! One thing I've learned in negotiations with companies employing software engineers is that Paid Time Off is really easy to get more of. I almost always ask for double what they're offering. Second -- This is semi-related to negotiating, but does anyone have experience dealing with intellectual property agreements? I'm negotiating with a company that has some really broad wording saying essentially anything I ever create or have created on or off company time that may be related to current or future "work products" they own. I'd like to re-word this so I can still safely work on side projects outside of work that may turn a profit. I just started looking over this part of the paperwork for starting this job, so I haven't brought anything up to the company yet. Pointers there?
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Mar 9, 2016 22:15
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I have a phone offer as of this afternoon for a new job. I am expecting it in writing tomorrow morning. I will 99% take the offer as it stands. However, I want to ask for more. What would be a good way to word the opening to my email reply such that I don't come across as weak on the increases that I am asking for but also don't make myself look like a backtracker if I take their offer as it stands?
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Mar 10, 2016 02:47
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Totally TWISTED posted:I have a phone offer as of this afternoon for a new job. I am expecting it in writing tomorrow morning. I will 99% take the offer as it stands. However, I want to ask for more. What would be a good way to word the opening to my email reply such that I don't come across as weak on the increases that I am asking for but also don't make myself look like a backtracker if I take their offer as it stands?
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Mar 10, 2016 03:41
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intervoid posted:Two things: Consider getting a lawyer to look things over if you want to change IP rights terms. IP law is hideously complex. It's also highly probable that the firm won't accept any negotiation at all on its IP terms as the language will have been provided by their lawyers in accordance with their level of comfort. Your only option may be to decide whether you're comfortable with the terms they propose, or not.
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Mar 10, 2016 11:57
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intervoid posted:Two things: IANAL, but keep a log book of the side projects. As long as you can demonstrate that you did all the work on your own time, and that your side project is unrelated to your job, you should be clear. This is the reason for lab notebooks. Also, keep in mind that suing a former employee for their side project is the nuclear option. It would poison the well with all current employees and kill morale, unless it was a slam-dunk win for company. I'm not saying that companies don't make dumb decisions from time-to-time, but I think the risk here is minimal as long as you're not inventing something that directly competes with the company.
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Mar 10, 2016 15:18
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Dik Hz posted:If you're civil and polite, and wind up taking the initial offer after negotiating, nobody rational is going to view you negatively. Just say something like thanks for the offer, it appears that I'm a good fit for the position. But, moving expenses, industry average, local cost of living, etc... Then make your ask and say you look forward to hearing back from them. Nothing fancy. If they completely stonewall you, your BATNA is the original offer, which you're happy with. Win/Win. Have an agreed upon offer that's 7.5% higher than their initial with a bonus on top of that at year end if I hit certain performance benchmarks. Woot!
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Mar 10, 2016 20:59
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Totally TWISTED posted:Have an agreed upon offer that's 7.5% higher than their initial with a bonus on top of that at year end if I hit certain performance benchmarks. Woot!  Grats. Easiest money you ever made, right?
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Mar 11, 2016 15:27
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Dik Hz posted:
Yep! Funny thing is I work in sales but with it being my own salary and job prospect at stake I was afraid of screwing up the negotiating process. Thanks for the affirmation to just ask nicely and it'll be fine earlier.
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Mar 11, 2016 21:09
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Anyone want to copy paste the new OP again? Ive only been able to read the same long post five times so far.
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Mar 12, 2016 02:55
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Just chiming in for the eventual goon that keeps the tally but this thread helped me negotiate a salary 7.5% higher than the initial offer (even after committing the sin of giving a salary range and having the initial offer come in ABOVE the top of my range), a signing bonus, and a later start date than they wanted so my stock at my old company could vest.This is the most valuable thread.
Chaotic Flame fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Mar 12, 2016 |
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Mar 12, 2016 03:56
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Was told during the very first interview that all contracts were non-negotiable. The offer was fair and my BATNA was house husband so I took the job but COME ON man you're supposed to at least play the game.
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Mar 12, 2016 04:03
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potatoducks posted:Was told during the very first interview that all contracts were non-negotiable. The offer was fair and my BATNA was house husband so I took the job but COME ON man you're supposed to at least play the game. If you didn't even try to ask for more, then it was you who didn't play the game. Sounds to me like they played the game, and won. That being said, if you liked the offer and didn't like your alternatives, then there's nothing inherently wrong with accepting it, but don't blame them for not negotiating.
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Mar 12, 2016 04:25
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ObsidianBeast posted:If you didn't even try to ask for more, then it was you who didn't play the game. Sounds to me like they played the game, and won. No blame involved. It's a huge organization and people I knew who worked there told me it's no negotiations, no exceptions. I assume those places actually do exist. If not, then I guess I missed out. I tried delaying my start date so that's something. They said take it or leave it. potatoducks fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Mar 12, 2016 |
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Mar 12, 2016 04:32
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I'm in kind of a strange situation that I wanted to run by you guys. I'm finishing up a PhD and last summer started doing some remote contract work for a local company. I was just doing some stats/data analysis work for ~ 10 hours a week. I accepted their offer of $45/hr because it seemed like a good deal for such easy work. Things have changed since then, and I've taken on a much more substantial role at the company. I work 4 days a week, two in the office and two from home, still under the same contract. My responsibilities have skyrocketed - I'm looped in on multiple projects and frequently asked by the CEO to "take the lead" on things. Now, a permanent offer is likely coming my way soon, and I'd like to accept it. In terms of negotiation, have I already screwed myself by accepting a number for what I thought at the time was going to be a 10 hr/week side gig? I'd like to make the case that I should be paid more given the increased responsibilities. I'm also doing a really good job there - so they know what they're getting.
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Mar 12, 2016 16:13
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The only way to give yourself a secure BATNA is to seek out offers from other companies. It sucks, but when your options are between staying at $45 and earning $0 when your contract ends, they more or less have you over a barrel. You may have a bit of wiggle room if you're responsible for a lot of ongoing work, but that may only take you so far, depending on the particulars of your circumstances.
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Mar 12, 2016 16:20
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Big City Drinkin posted:I'm in kind of a strange situation that I wanted to run by you guys. I'm finishing up a PhD and last summer started doing some remote contract work for a local company. I was just doing some stats/data analysis work for ~ 10 hours a week. I accepted their offer of $45/hr because it seemed like a good deal for such easy work. Realistically though, $45/hr is ~$100k/year salary. Which is in-line with most markets for fresh PhDs. Places like San Francisco would pay more.
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Mar 12, 2016 16:29
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Ok, thanks guys. I'm actually happy with the money, but I thought I'd figure out my options given the "always negotiate" mantra of the thread. A permanent offer would add benefits, and I don't have any right now. Would it at least be reasonable to ask that the salary stay where it is despite the addition of benefits?
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Mar 12, 2016 16:37
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Big City Drinkin posted:Ok, thanks guys. I'm actually happy with the money, but I thought I'd figure out my options given the "always negotiate" mantra of the thread. Are they offering you less now? If you accepted for 10 hours a week then they changed the role and asked you to be fulltime you could renegotiate. You should at least get the same salary plus the additional benefits.
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Mar 12, 2016 16:46
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Big City Drinkin posted:Ok, thanks guys. I'm actually happy with the money, but I thought I'd figure out my options given the "always negotiate" mantra of the thread. But, you're making $45/hour without a PhD. When you get a PhD, you deserve a raise. Like I mentioned earlier, get another job offer to improve your negotiating position.
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Mar 12, 2016 19:04
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Dik Hz posted:Like I mentioned earlier, get another job offer to improve your negotiating position. Probably easier said than done given the timeframe. And I'd say that $45/hour is probably about what I'm worth, realistically. I sent out a smattering of applications about a year ago and ended up with $85k in Philadelphia, $125 in NYC and $63k in Pittsburgh. I turned them all down after realizing that moving away would probably solidify my status as a perma-ABD. Current job is in DC, but I'd be taking that money back to Baltimore where things are much, much cheaper. So if I'd need to be in a position of saying "hey, company X offered me this" it'd probably be not much more than $45/hr or maybe less.
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Mar 12, 2016 19:55
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Big City Drinkin posted:I'm in kind of a strange situation that I wanted to run by you guys. I'm finishing up a PhD and last summer started doing some remote contract work for a local company. I was just doing some stats/data analysis work for ~ 10 hours a week. I accepted their offer of $45/hr because it seemed like a good deal for such easy work. You haven't screwed yourself because it's a rate that as you say was for a part time role with vastly different responsibilities. I would do you homework and look for positions with responsibilities similar to yours as a reference for salary. Big City Drinkin posted:Ok, thanks guys. I'm actually happy with the money, but I thought I'd figure out my options given the "always negotiate" mantra of the thread. Absolutely, but don't lead with "can I stay flat". Lead with whatever justifiable number you can get to, plus benefits, and go from there. Big City Drinkin posted:Probably easier said than done given the timeframe. And I'd say that $45/hour is probably about what I'm worth, realistically. I sent out a smattering of applications about a year ago and ended up with $85k in Philadelphia, $125 in NYC and $63k in Pittsburgh. I turned them all down after realizing that moving away would probably solidify my status as a perma-ABD. The difference is: - you now have a year of experience - this doesn't seem like much but it's a huge risk reduction that you've proved you can function in an office. - you will be finishing your phd - again, a big difference between someone who is working on vs done their degree. - you've demonstrated you can lead teams All of these things tell me you should be positioned for a solid improvement in your salary.
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Mar 13, 2016 23:10
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Kalenn Istarion posted:The difference is: How much do you think the ability to lead teams adds to this? I've essentially built a team from the ground up - that is I was entirely responsible for one crucial aspect of my company to now leading a 5 and growing team, and only seen ~$10k in that time period.
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Mar 14, 2016 02:57
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ohgodwhat posted:How much do you think the ability to lead teams adds to this? I've essentially built a team from the ground up - that is I was entirely responsible for one crucial aspect of my company to now leading a 5 and growing team, and only seen ~$10k in that time period. You are likely underpaid, but the answer to that is basically "it depends" in the typical BATNA fashion. If you're in an organization where people in management roles are few and far between and where your team members are only showing skill as individual contributors then you're probably worth another $30-40k over your skillset prior to demonstrating leadership. On the other hand if you've got a lot of middle management and someone can slot in to (mis)manage your team the day you leave and the people in those roles are not compensated drastically better than individual contributors then you're right on track in your company. Whether or not you can leverage that additional value is all up to how many other firms in your space are also prepared to pick up and leverage your skillset. Even if you're doing a valuable and useful thing that is unique it still isn't real leverage unless there's some other way for you to ply that unique skill into income without your present company. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:poo poo I knew that was coming. I'll draft something up in a day or two. Given lack of feedback on OP I'm going to call this the last blocker to making a new thread.
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Mar 14, 2016 15:02
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Goddamnit ok I'll post a draft today.
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Mar 14, 2016 21:07
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