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I grew up with DBZ just like most people my age and I suppose I owe it something for being so popular that Funi could introduce me to Dragon Ball but... It's so terrible in comparison. I can't think of another mangaka in history who could say "my main character was an alien all along and just forgot because he got dropped on his head." Modern manga fans flip their poo poo when Ichigo turns into his Hollow form and kills Ulquiorra out of nowhere. If Toriyama tried to do that poo poo today, people would fly to Japan just for the chance to personally slap him across the face. Now...all that being said, I have a lot of nostalgia for DBZ, whatever its horrible drop in quality from DB. And having recently watched Kai for the first time, I can appreciate a lot of the changes. Ayres' Freeza was indeed great and Goku's "I am" speech was vastly superior. But then again, the whole Namek Saga was the dub's lowest point. What really mattered was the Cell Saga and I don't think there was any substantial improvement there apart from Sabat's Piccolo being just his Zoro voice now and not...whatever he originally did. There were some pretty bad replacements like Clinkenbeard's Eighteen. She gave absolutely nothing to Eighteen because her "tough female voice" that she gives to Inner Moka or Erza was more or less taken by Gohan. So she's left with "generic female." It was certainly nothign compared to Meredith McCoy's dry wit which I felt always gave Eighteen this perpetually bored with the world feeling and I liked that. It contrasted well with how childish Seventeen was. Eric Vale's Future Trunks also sounds like he took the Terminator inspiration too far and is trying to emulate Christian Bale. There's also the matter of losing Bruce Faulconer's score. I just can't imagine Cell dying without Ginyu Transformation playing. Also no Gohan Angers. And the ending narration for when Gohan goes SSJ2 is so goddam boring and bland in Kai. This is the most defining and memorable moment in DBZ history for me and the narrator did not do it justice compared to the original. At the end of the day, my favorite dub will always be Funi's Dragon Ball. Nadolny's Kid Goku, Kent Williams' Mercenary Tao, Sabat's King Piccolo and the awesome original Japanese music - I loved it all. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Jan 31, 2014 |
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Jan 31, 2014 20:35
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BlitzBlast posted:Faulconer's score was amazing, I literally can not imagine Cell or Super Buu without thinking of their kickass themes. I really hope the Abridged series uses them. That's something Yugioh Abridged did - it kept all the great 4Kids' music for the Battle City arc. There was so much goodness there with the themes for the Egyptian Gods and whatnot. Don't forget the Androids had a cool theme too. And in addition to his amazing theme, Cell had the best power up music nest to Super Saiyan 3. But man...the original DB's music. It's some of the best in anime history for me. Makafushigi Adventure and the instrumental version are iconic for a drat good reason. Then there was the World Martial Arts/Tenkaichi Budokai music, the badass Red Ribbon Army theme, the even more badass Defeat the Red Ribbon Army Theme, Wolf Hurricane Or, yes, Yamcha CAN be awesome, and even more besides all that. God, music matters a lot to me in my anime and DB is so full of greatness. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Jan 31, 2014 |
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Jan 31, 2014 21:02
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Ugh, eveN DBZ is better written than Star Ocean 3. Maybe not by much but still...I hate that game with a passion. Also I want to post this because it never fails to not make me laugh and I hope it can do the same for all of you. "Big Green had perished. Vejituh, Yamcha, Tenshin and Klirin - they had survived."
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Feb 1, 2014 05:29
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Silver2195 posted:The issue isn't Ichigo's Hollow powers, it's his super-Hollow powers beyond his normal Hollow powers. There was a bit of foreshadowing, but it was still overly convenient. Yeah, my point was just to illustrate how a relatively minor thing is bitched about excessively by manga fans of today. Something of much more drastic scope and with even less logic behind it like Goku being an alien would result in current manga readers' heads exploding due to nerd rage.
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Feb 1, 2014 09:02
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I know this is kind of a weird thing for it to be a favorite but I think TFS is at its best when they riff on the inconsistency in DB's story. (and no, I don't mean Vegeta's "power levels are bullshit!" line, even though that was great) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlnyjw5LUj0&t=2m58s Petiso posted:It's crazy (and kinda incoherent) how strong a mere human becomes after Gero's modifications, stronger than a base supersaiyan which overpowers Freeza who had a reputation even around the afterlife gods. If we assume 17 and 18 were just regular teenagers imagine how insanely strong people like Krillin or Ten would become after the same modifications. And you just highlighted a reason why so many people hate the Cell Saga. They feel it was an illogical downgrade since Z had been traveling into space to fight galactic overlords. Now we're back on Earth fighting...the Red Ribbon Army? How the hell did Gero manage this? Cell Saga best Saga for me. Well, best Z Saga, and all Z Saga < DB Saga. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Feb 3, 2014 |
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Feb 3, 2014 11:42
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Blue was definitely superhuman but I never got the impression he could truly rival Goku. His best asset was his paralysis technique. So yeah, I think the point of Tao was to present Goku with someone truly stronger than himself - someone who could push him to the next level. King Piccolo was the best villain in the whole series but Tao was amazing too.
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Feb 3, 2014 14:48
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I must admit, before GT, I would have thought Vegeta be the worst dad ever. As in "you are here to date my daughter? BIG BANG ATTACK!!!" But just look how he lets Bra dress. And he doesn't make her train or anything. Veget afor Best Dad. (by DBZ's abysmally low standards)
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Feb 4, 2014 20:03
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crankdatbatman posted:Doesn't she gain a soft spot for Krillin due to him not deactivating her when he could have? That and later on she hears about how he protected her after Cell spit her up. Plus she witnessed him wishing to get her bomb removed. I can't stress enough how much I love Meredith McCoy's Eighteen. I won't defend most of the performances in the Z dub because a lot of them were sss but she was true quality as far as I'm concerned. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug4MfzcC-jo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40hKzjiSUJ8 Whether it's that "I HATE YOU!!!" or the dry "look he noticed. How cute." God I love her. She even sang Eighteen's dub theme song.
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Feb 5, 2014 00:24
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Nah, I'm pretty sure that was unique to the album. It's kinda like how Heroic Trunks was only ever used in a Toonami preview and not in an actual DBZ episode. And yet there's a ton of variations of that song on the Faulconer OSTs because it's so goddam good. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqHHuD_SeD0
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Feb 5, 2014 01:26
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Tae posted:None of teens looked like teens. Remember Gohan's high school? His "main rival" there was super beefed up and looked like he could've been Tien's fighting partner. Pft, that's nothing. This is supposed to be a 13-year-old  It's even more offputting in GT where Goku is maybe 3/4 as tall as Pan and she's only supposed to be 10 or so. I was very confused about DB Goku's age for a very long time.
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Feb 5, 2014 06:18
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As Abridged Vegeta said of Tree of Might "this is so non-canon it hurts." My personal interpretatio of it is that it exists in an AU where everyone went to Namek but they didn't encounter Freeza. This could account for things like Yamcha having King Kai's symbol on his gi as well as Piccolo having a relatively high PL of 18K I think it was. He got that from training with king Kai. Also Turles was pretty awesome for just beign Evil Goku. he's voiced by Chris Patton (aka Greed. Sorry TroY Baker - Patton's Greed is my favorite) and he had dialogue like: Goku: I raised [Gohan] to know the difference between good and evil! Unlike some people... Turles: I know the difference - I just don't care. And Turles after eating one of the fruits must have had a very substantial PL for this point in the series. I think he was above even Ginyu. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Feb 6, 2014 |
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Feb 6, 2014 00:10
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Having been present at many a Broly's Power Level debates, I can safely say that Movie 8 doesn't fit because even though it hsa long-haired Trunks and would seem to be right before the Cell Games, Goku and Gohan are not constantly in their Super Saiyan forms. As such, they are not FPSSJ.
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Feb 6, 2014 01:36
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tsob posted:What happened to the dragonballs in Trunks' timeline that he couldn't just use them to wish everyone back to life after he killed the Androids again? It's been way too many years since I've watched any of this outside Abridged. Piccolo died so there went Kami too. As to why he didn't get a ship to the new Planet Namek and use their balls...because reasons.
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Feb 6, 2014 01:49
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The supreme examples of someone with a lower PL managing to pose a threat to a person of a higher level are Goku with Raditz and Android 16 with Perfect Cell. The former had Goku with broken ribs holding a guy about 4 times stronger than him and the latter had 16 holding a guy dozens of times stronger than him. Or maybe it's just bad writing. Yeah it's probably that.
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Feb 7, 2014 05:32
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And that time Goku multiplied his PL by like, 20 or 50 or whatever and could only mildly annoy Freeza at 50%? That would make Freeza worth, what, a 100 Goku's? Or that time Vegeta used all his power to attack Perfect Cell (both times actually...) and didn't really do anything? Or my favorite, when Nappa attacked Tien and Tien defended himself...only to get his arm punched off.
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Feb 7, 2014 10:39
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Hm...Dragon Ball Fights: Goku vs. Tien at the 22nd World Martial Arts Tournament. I felt this was an exceptionally climactic and interesting fight. Tenshinhan was one of the best antagonists in the series IMO. Dragon Ball Z Fights: Android 18 vs. Vegeta. hen I was growing up, I was crazy about Vegeta just like every other kid. he wasn't a goody two-shoes like the others and I loved how he killed everyone and doesn't afraid of anything. But, as I've grown up, I've lost my old love for him and this is my favorite fight simply because of how much his ego was crushed. People like to cite his battle witH Freeza as really bad - and it was - but you really have to look into Vegeta's psyche. All that boasting about being a Super Saiyan, all that obsessive effort, and he still gets his poo poo kicked in with relative ease by this random girl. Plus Eighteen is just one of the best Z characters period so seeing her only real fight was great.
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Feb 7, 2014 23:48
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Dragonatrix posted:Really, Tenkaichi Budokai fights always rock because they don't have major stakes but you still have people giving it their all in amazing ways. Some people disagree with me about this - namely the pro-Z people who say DB wasn't better - but I think one of the best things about the World Martial Arts Tournaments was it gave everyone a chance to shine. Yamcha had his best fight in the series there with Tien at the 22nd and he even had a cool showing against Kami in the 2rd. Krillin never stood a chance against Goku in the 22nd Tournament but he still looked great. In reality, every non-Goku person was just as useless in Z as they were in DB but the tournaments gave them opportunities to showcase their abilities. Whereas in Z we were constantly bombarded with how worthless they all are.
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Feb 8, 2014 23:32
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I liked Nail's comment on the tone shift. So very true. The Cell Saga has to be the darkest, most serious business storyline ever in DB. Which I guess is why so many people hate it but I think it's the one arc that really made DBZ stand apart from DB in a good way.
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Mar 8, 2014 07:46
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It definitely is. I think you could easily make it funny though simply by having 18 say funny stuff while she's being absorbed. "Why you...! When I get outta here I'm gonna give you what for!" Obviously I'm not funny but I think a big part of the rapey-ness of the original was Eighteen's reaction and if you make that more comedic, the scene is a lot less creepy. Like this scene. It's no less hosed up but I can see TFS having a field day with Nail and Kami in Piccolo's head going "hey...maybe you should stop him or something."
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Mar 8, 2014 07:58
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bowmore posted:Seems like an anti climax He's basically saying the Cell Saga should have ended like the Buu Saga if the Buu Saga ended after the fights with Pui Pui and Yakon. Speaking of which, Pui Pui is the man. He could probably beat Freeza. I don't know why it took so long for them to make him a playable character in something when they had poo poo characters like Freeza's generic henchmen be playable.
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Mar 8, 2014 16:54
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I think the series should have ended when Goku won the 23rd Budokai. My issue with the Freeza Saga is Freeza himself. There is no excuse for how boring and repetitive his final fights are. Someone can kinda challenge him? TRANSFORMATION! Someone else can rival this form? ANOTHER TRANSFORMATION! Out of transformations? Well now I'll use another 5% of my power! Even Buu had more going for him since he had to go around absorbing people to get stronger. Same for Cell. If they wer elosing they had to use strategy to get ahead instead of plot bullshit. Also consider the absurd jump in power. Vegeta to Cui to Zarbon to Monster Zarbon to the Ginyu Force to Captain Ginyu are all reasonable jumps. Then Ginyu is the top of the chain - Freeza's strongest subordinate and he's at 120,000. Freeza meanwhile is at 120,000,000. That's right, Freeza is literally 1000 times stronger than the next in command. This results in all sorts of nonsense where Gohan increased more in power in five minutes than he did all through Namek and every other fight.
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Mar 8, 2014 22:21
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19 and Gero are pretty much impossible to gauge accurately and I certainly would not put Vegeta below Frieza. Vegeta was stronger than SSJ Trunks who made mincemeat out of Frieza. Also even after absorbing some of Piccolo's energy, Piccolo curbstomped Gero/Android 20. I don't see any reason to say 19 was significantly stronger than Gero.
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Mar 8, 2014 22:27
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Soujiro was better than Shishio or Einishi in Rurouni Kenshin but he was defeated before any of them. Sensui also started off this way in Yu Yu Hakusho before the writer hosed everything up.
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Mar 9, 2014 00:58
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The "Goku is a fighting junky" topic has made me want to ask you all a question I've always puzzled over. You might remember Kid Goku fought a character named Spike the Devilman. He had an attack that, if you possessed even an inkling of evil or impurity in you, would cause your heart to explode. Kid Goku survived but would Adult Goku? Am I alone in thinking Adult Goku's heart would pop like a potato in a hot fireplace? He is incredibly selfish, as seen when he lets the guy go who just helped murder all his friends (and tried to murder everyone else on Earth) solely for the desire to fight him again. Vegeta could have come back to murder everyone he "loved" but nope, Goku was far more concerned with his own addition to violence. And let's not even get into the whole throwing his son t a genocidal and unstoppable monster.
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Mar 9, 2014 14:02
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Orgia Carnaval posted:Goku is one of the dumbest adults I have ever seen in fiction and it's because he never needed to actually grow up given he's a super strong man and might have brain damage. Which is why I hate the fact he's had such a negative influence on shounen. So many Goku clones like Naruto or Luffy or Natsu, when we really should be getting more Kenshin's or, hell, even Yusuke's.
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Mar 9, 2014 16:40
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I honestly don't mind Natsu because Fairy Tail is mostly a gag/fanservice series. It is so absolutely clad in its cliches that I find it endearing. It has no delusions of grandeur, which is more than I can say for Naruto. But yes, Yusuke is the best shounen hero ever. Unless we count Vash, since Trigun was shounen originally. He is the well-done idealistic hero that people like Kira Yamato and Naruto wish they could be.
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Mar 10, 2014 06:41
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I like my analogy of Chapter Black starting off as Dragon Ball and ending as Dragon Ball Z. Seriously, just compare Yusuke's and "Minoru's" fights(he was the personality of Sensui who had 95% of Sensui's screentime. Yet nobody remembers him...) to the final showdown with Shinobu. One is fisticuffs and the other is DBZ style blurred punches and flying though the air and gianT explosions because POWER. It doesn't help that Shinobu completely ruins the dynamic between him and Yusuke. He started off as weaker than Yusuke but compensated for this with superior experience. Strength vs. Skill basically. He was a martial artist to Yusuke's brawler. His techniques were all "leg-based" versions of Yusuke's Spirit Gun/Shotgun and in general he uses his legs more while Yusuke uses his fists more. Then comes SHinobu who is just OMG Power. Also dying. Don't think I didn't roll my eyes at that. It was basically Younger Toguro all over again with the "I wanted it this day so feel sad for me!" Only much less effective in every way. This is how everyone should remember Sensui. Also am I alone in thinking Robert McCollum (Sensui's dub VA) would have been perfect as Freeza in Kai? I liked Ayres but you just don't hear Rob enough. He's Jellal in FT but Jellal isn't evil long enough to get the full effect. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Mar 10, 2014 |
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Mar 10, 2014 15:13
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Don't forget Younger Toguro. Can you believe he's also Cell? It stunned me at first. Dameon Clarke is the man and his Scar in FMA is better than any other. (IMO) But yeah, Funi's dubbing practices have changed a lot in a decade. Nowadays, giving a character an unnecessary accent is basically like saying your dub is poo poo. People like to say dubbing standards have improved since 2000, and I guess they have, but I still enjoy dubs from early 2000 or even the 90s. Stuff like Magic Knights Rayeath and what I've heard of Gundam Wing are all pretty nice. Plus some of the best dubs ever are from the start of the 00s, like FMA or Inuyasha. I'm pretty sure Funi also doesn't completely rewrite the script like they used to. A big reason YYH's dub is so good is precisely because it was so heavily localized. And to think, just a short time earlier they were doing this. Thank God Dragon Ball was closer to Yu Yu Hakusho in the quality of the rewrites department than it was to DBZ. http://videobam.com/RuGXP NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Mar 10, 2014 |
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Mar 10, 2014 15:34
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Metal Loaf posted:I don't watch a great deal of anime so my knowledge is fairly limited, but I think my favourite dub is probably Slayers (especially once Crispin Freeman takes over as Zelgadis), which is about as '90s as they come. A lot of the Slayers VAs are from New York too so now you mention that I gotta say Pokemon was a good 90s dub. I only watched one thing of Slayers but I remember Ash Ketchum was the little girl with the hammer who was my favorite character.
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Mar 11, 2014 00:56
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So are any of the DBZ movies actually, ya know, good? I liked Movie 3 and 8 in a mindless sort of way but man, Movie 4 was just... It's the goddam King Piccolo Arc! And Goku goes Super Saiyan before Namek. And then he does a Kaioken x 100 which is actually a stronger powerup than Super Saiyan.... And perhaps it is because it's so terrible that Lord Slug Abridged is my favorite TFS movie. Now that I've defeated King Piccolo, I can wish back Chaozu, Master Roshi and Krillin. WHAT!
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Mar 11, 2014 22:01
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Mister Roboto posted:Wrath of the Dragon is the best because it's the only one that doesn't contradict anything. Well, that and possibly Bojack. Isn't SSJ3 Goku stronger than Ultimate Gohan in that one? carry on then posted:Seconding Bojack being enjoyable mostly because I was supremely disappointed they never did a saga with teen Gohan as strongest fighter, so outside of the Cell Games it's the only time he goes SS2 (of course it's only for about five minutes but I'll take what I can get.) He might have been Super Saiyan 2 against Broly in Movie 10 and Dabura in the Buu Saga. The problem is that SSJ2 is such a lazy loving design that it's impossible to tell on older Gohan. You can tell with his Cell Games self because he has more hair to stick straight up but not so as an adult. This is Goku but it proves the point well enough SSJ1  SSJ2  SSJ1  SSJ2 
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Mar 12, 2014 00:52
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Captain Oblivious posted:The Team Four Star ones, and no others. Si very true. http://youtu.be/vZI7LISLBa0?t=13m41s The fact that Santa was Kyle Hebert (narrator, Buu Saga Gohan) is amazing.
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Mar 12, 2014 22:57
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Caros posted:Daddy? And mommy. I love long gags like Vegeta's Scream but for some reason it's usually the quick lines that always stand out to me as my favorites. 1. Vegeta's Theme Music (and his facial expression to said theme music) 2. TFS' version of the dumb filler flashback Vegeta: How did you know about the parts you weren't there for? Freeza: ... (powers up)
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Mar 15, 2014 01:24
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I have a question of my own but it's related to TFS. In this scene with the "was he never there to begin with?" and the music and stuff, is that a reference to anything?
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Mar 15, 2014 02:34
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Silver2195 posted:Actually, while the current king is clearly preferable to, say, Piccolo or Black, we're never presented with much evidence that he's the best man for the job. By the time of the Cell Saga, he's the only person around who seems to remember Goku or Piccolo. Basically he's the only non-retarded person on the planet so he might as well be in charge. quote:[*]The way the "water of the gods" is described makes it sound like it made Goku as strong as he could ever be, but his training with God almost immediately afterwards made him stronger than that. Am I missing something here? It's no different than how Guru released Gohan's potential then Gohan kept powering up against Freeza. or how Gohan released all of his power and became SSJ2. Or then how his potential was unlocked even more by Old Kai. It's just shounen BS.
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Mar 15, 2014 07:58
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Much better-written shounen than Dragon Ball have had weak female casts. (looking at you, Rurouni Kenshin) DBZ's lack of female fighters isn't a huge problem for me. We'll always have that time Eighteen broke Vegeta's arm. Come on guys, don't lie, it was the best thing ever. Vegeta has cried like a bitch and eaten more dirt than Yamcha ever did.
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Mar 16, 2014 03:26
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Some Numbers posted:Guy got to the quarterfinals in...three different World Tournaments? He may be a chump, but he was consistently one of the eight strongest in the world back in Dragonball. Behold - even Yamcha can be pretty cool. That's his awesome theme song playing there. If I have one complaint about the Dragon Ball dub it's the lack of Insert Songs. However that isn't Funi's fault as far as I know. Toei just never gave them any copies of the show with the songs in them so we have to go without. A pity too since DB had the best insert songs. I hope you all celebrated Piccolo Day. Cozz posted:So I finished Dragonball yesterday (RIP the relevance of Tien and Krillan), and then started on the Z manga. And I feel that there was a very inconsistent characterization from Goku during his fight with Raditz in DBZ Chapter 6. After Raditz reveals that there are two people stronger than him. This exchange happens (Vizbig Translation). Goku knows he's the greatest warrior Earth has and even he wasn't enough to pose a threat to Raditz. Now there are two people on their way to Earth even stronger than Raditz while Goku is dying. My guess is he's more afraid for his family and friends than anything. Goku can know fear for those he loves, even if he himself is fearless. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 03:12
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Like that time he used Solar Flare oN Freeza and had an excellent opportunity to kill him right then and there by cutting off his head. See, this is why people make fun of Krillin. At least Yamcha has the excuse he never came close to hurting the bad guys, Krillin had the opportunity several times and always hosed it up.
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Jun 10, 2014 12:39
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The best thing about the anime is even the fodder humans got a chance to shine here and there. Far as I'm concerned the climax of the Cell Saga isthe single greatest point in "Z." Whether it's Gohan going SSJ2 or Super Perfect Cell returning or Vegeta attacking him to try and redeem himself for how badly he treated his son, it was all perfect. In the mix of this there was of course how Yamcha, Tien, Krillin and Piccolo all attacked Cell during the Kamehameha Wave Battle. Sure they never stood a chance but it was awesome and a bit inspirational because they knew full well they had no chance and could be killed but they did it all to try and be heroes just like Goku and his son. Now I have to post the scene. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec6fR11dHUk Now that I'm older I mostly regard DBZ as a guilty pleasure but there are legitimately good moments here and there and that ending is one of them. "I AM PERFECT!!!!!!!!!"
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Jun 10, 2014 20:11
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The World Martial Arts Tournmanets/Tenkaichi Budokais were great because everyone got to look good. Did Krillin ever stand a chance against Goku? Hell no. Did he stand a chance against Piccolo? Hell no. But damned if he wasn't impressive in just how hard he fought. Same for Yamcha. This is Goku's show so obviously Goku is gonna win but Krillin and Yamcha still got to show off their skills and how good they really were. Some people say DB was just as bad as Z in making everyone else look like poo poo but I totally disagree. Also the Red Ribbon Arc > 22nd Tournament Arc > King Piccolo Arc are the greatest series of episodes in DB or Z. I really wish they would release DB Blu-Rays... They did it for Yu Yu Hakusho and Gundam. Why not classic Dragon Ball? I'd buy that poo poo up in a second.
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Jun 10, 2014 23:19
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