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Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Tae posted:

Wait, people were actually surprised Ichigo was a hollow? Didn't they blatantly do a whole training arc on controlling his hollow self or something?

The issue isn't Ichigo's Hollow powers, it's his super-Hollow powers beyond his normal Hollow powers. There was a bit of foreshadowing, but it was still overly convenient.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2014 06:44

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 04:11

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

I've just read the first 10 volumes of the original Dragon Ball, having previously read the Saiyan Saga and nothing else. My thoughts:

Goku being an alien gets a surprising amount of foreshadowing; I think one of the other characters mentions the possibility explicitly. Also, while it's the American editor rather than Toriyama, the bit about Kami-sama's "obscure origin" comes across as a hint about his being an alien too. I wonder what planet Ten and Chaozu are from...
Despite this, it's clear that, as Toriyama explicitly admits, he's making it all up as he goes along. I don't think Goku's were-ape transformation got any foreshadowing the first time.
It's funny how central the Hoipoi capsules are to the setting; I don't think they came up once in the entire Saiyan Saga. Likewise the anthropomorphic animals.
The gender politics get pretty cringeworthy even for a shonen manga (for example, how many times has Bulma been implicitly threatened with sexual assault just to give Goku a reason to beat up some random people?). I'll cut Toriyama a bit of slack here because he was writing in the 80s.
Despite this, Bulma is pretty cool; she's arguably the least stupid major character so far. It's funny how she was arguably the main character at first.
On a related note, remember when Chi-Chi managed to injure Roshi? Also, Arale owns. Looking her up on the Dragon Ball wiki, it seems Goku still hasn't surpassed her at this point in the story.
The same wiki assures me that Boss Rabbit survived when Roshi blew up the moon.
The villain motivations are pretty thin, though this is partly , as Pilaf can't think of what he's going to do with the world after he takes over. In a modern shonen series, Commander Red would be trying to resurrect his dead wife or unite all human consciousness or something.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2014 19:52

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

I've gotten to the final tournament arc in my readthrough of the original Dragon Ball. More thoughts:

It's clear that Hunter x Hunter is heavily inspired by Dragon Ball in some ways. In particular, Gon has a similar personality to Kid Goku, and his rock-paper-scissors attack is also clearly taken from Goku's. I think there's actually an element of commentary in HxH on how messed up the sort of characters and setting presented in a story like Dragon Ball are if you take them at all seriously.
The revelation that the world is already united under one king makes Pilaf's and Black's motivations make a bit more sense. Actually, while the current king is clearly preferable to, say, Piccolo or Black, we're never presented with much evidence that he's the best man for the job.
The way the "water of the gods" is described makes it sound like it made Goku as strong as he could ever be, but his training with God almost immediately afterwards made him stronger than that. Am I missing something here?
Chi-Chi lost to Goku quite decisively, but she was strong enough to make it through the preliminaries. Somehow I suspect that's as cool as Toriyama will ever allow her to be.

# ¿ Mar 15, 2014 07:38

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Mister Roboto posted:

Toriyama has admitted he can't write relationships or female characters. So Chi-Chi becoming a nagging housewife is a bit of a cliche, but honestly isn't far off from what was probably his personal experiences in Japanese culture. And, this is not an attempt to be sexist, but young women changing their interests when they get married and raise a family is...pretty normal. Think about all your nerd friends who probably married a nerd girl, and the days of playing X video game together when you were 19/20 start to become way less of a priority to the adult world of raising kids.

I'm only 21, so I can't really relate. I think I understand what you're getting at, though.

# ¿ Mar 16, 2014 04:48

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Spiritus Nox posted:

Remember when blowing up the world tournament stage was considered an incredible display of destructive power?

There was some inconsistency there with Roshi blowing up the moon. My initial rationalization was that the Dragon Ball moon is more like the one in Soul Eater than the one in the real world, but in an end-of-volume Q&A, Toriyama mentioned the moon being the same distance from the earth as the real one (in the context of how long Goku's staff extended when he took Boss Rabbit to the moon).

# ¿ Mar 19, 2014 15:57

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

By the way, back in Dragon Ball it was stated that people who are killed by "demons" like Piccolo don't go to the normal afterlife. This, of course, is seemingly contradicted when Piccolo kills Goku and Raditz during the Saiyan Saga. The best explanation I can come up with is that it's true of actual demons like the one who works for Baba, but whoever was explaining this (Roshi?) didn't know that Piccolo was actually a Namekian.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2014 16:50

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Petiso posted:

That was actually addressed.

During the saiyan arc there was a dialogue between Kami and Mr. Popo about Gohan's safety under Piccolo's tutelage, and Kami claims that the fact that Goku could reach the afterlife proves Piccolo is no longer the demon he once was.

Huh. Forgot about that. That's actually pretty clever and consistent for Toriyama.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2014 18:19

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Shindragon posted:

Get to watching Dragonball you fool! Thought it might end up making you think, man everyone who is not Goku turns useless in DBZ.

Granted my favorite fight is obviously Goku v.s. Piccolo.

I do like how Piccolo never uses his get large and stay the same speed/size tech ever again after DB.

Probably because it's kind of a crappy ability; it makes him a bigger target and gives him bigger blind spots. To actually be useful, it would have to make him faster than his normal form instead of just keeping his speed the same.

# ¿ Mar 20, 2014 04:42

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

So you're saying Roshi was only 2-3 times as powerful as an average human, but could destroy the moon? Roshi destroying the Moon was so wildly beyond what characters who were clearly far beyond him in raw power could do that it doesn't make much sense in the first place, though. Even then, the whole "all this happened in .2 seconds" thing during his fight with Krillin suggests he's far too fast to be considered only three times as powerful as an average human.

Really, Dragon Ball is pretty inconsistent. People like to say Bleach is inconsistent, but I'm finding Bleach a lot easier to rationalize.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2014 23:36

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

WhiffleballDude posted:

Pretty sure 139 is more than 5x2.

I'm referring to Captain Quack's "exponential scale" (although it's still a bit more than twice).

# ¿ Mar 25, 2014 23:39

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Spiritus Nox posted:

...Why the gently caress are we talking about dragon testicles?

This is one of those parody jokes that fails because it's already made (more than once, actually) in the work being parodied.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2014 19:59

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

yoyomama posted:

The basic formula for bad guy turned good always seems to be wanna beat Goku/be the best warrior=turns into good guy, while desire for world/universe conquest=gets killed by Goku and/or hubris.

There's a couple of exceptions: Cell and Nappa were never redeemed, and Pilaf was never killed.

# ¿ Jun 8, 2014 20:47

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Momomo posted:

I have yet to watch/read much of Dragonball, and hearing that people like Tien and even Yajirobe get to actually like, do something is mind boggling.

Even Yamcha was a match for Goku when he was first introduced.

# ¿ Jun 10, 2014 00:08

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

NikkolasKing posted:

It's probably a good thing. I grew up with the DBZ craze and was totally obsessed with it just like everyone else. I tuned in religiously to every episode even as it took a few months for five minutes to pass. I was heartbroken when Vegeta didn't get to be immortal since I was rooting for him over those pussy good guys.

These days though...I want so badly not to care but I can't help myself. I don't want to give a poo poo about power levels but every power level discussion invariably draws me in.

I give stuff like Inuyasha a pass due to nostalgia but DBZ is something I objectively dislike and see no value in but I watch it anyway because I've been brainwashed.

This is the kind of person my generation has become.

I don't want to be that person. loving Vegeta as one of the best villains ever? Beating out Father and Griffith? The whole list is just a mishmash of popular shounen and seinen anyway.

Dante is a better villain than Father anyway. :colbert:

NikkolasKing posted:

I could see saying it was one of the best manga ever if there was no Part 2/"Z".

Saiyan Saga and beyond do not live up to the quality before it in my humble opinion.

Saiyan Saga was actually one of the better arcs; it had genuinely tense fights where things like tactics and teamwork still mattered. I would say the Freeza Saga was the actual shark-jumping point.

# ¿ Aug 1, 2014 16:19

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

ImpAtom posted:

Yes he is, he can use the Spirit Bomb.

I don't think the various "purity of heart" requirements in Dragon Ball all measure exactly the same thing. For example, Vegeta can use Super Saiyan, which requires righteous anger or something like that, but it would be very odd if Vegeta could survive the Devilmite Beam, which explicit requires you to be completely free from evil motivations.

# ¿ Sep 27, 2014 18:13

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

e X posted:

I think it's generally pretty vague, thanks to the comedic nature of DB. When people can fall several kilometers, getting shot, exploded and smashed without any consequences, it's hard to pin point if Goku actually killed the solders or just knocked them out.

I'm pretty sure he killed Adjutant/Commander Black, at least. And he definitely killed Piccolo Sr.

# ¿ Sep 27, 2014 23:06

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Hobgoblin2099 posted:

So, I have a few questions about the Androids Arc, because it always confused the hell out of me.

1. Was there any reason that the Androids were stronger than Frieza? I mean, Cell incorporated Frieza's DNA and he was weaker than 17 and 18 when he was birthed. For that matter, the power scaling of the Androids was weird in general.

19 and 20 =< Imperfect Cell (w/o Absorption) < 17 and 18 < Imperfect Cell (w/ Absorption) = Android 16 < Other Cell Forms

I guess that's because Toriyama's editor made him change the main villain a few times, but I dunno for sure.

2. Why did Gero even lock up 16, anyway? He was completely loyal and devoted to the idea of killing Goku.

3. Why do 17 and 18 want to kill Goku after they wake up anyway? I mean, killing Goku was Gero's thing. Why would they want to follow his orders?

4. Why would Gero make Cell weaker than his "defective" Android 16 and the traitorous 17 and 18?

Really, it just seems like Gero was really stupid.

1. The Androids were created based on some sort of data from Freeza and Cold's visit to Earth. Maybe they're based on Freeza's cyborg enhancements?

2. To protect him, I think.

3. Because they're bored and can't think of a constructive goal, basically. They care a lot less about fighting Goku specifically than 16 does.

4. I don't think Gero made him weaker on purpose. Cell was purely organic rather than a cyborg, which gave him greater capacity for growth, even if he didn't start out as strong.

# ¿ Nov 12, 2014 22:53

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

There's nothing in the manga about anyone moving faster than light (not counting Instant Transmission/Teleportation). It's a dub change.

# ¿ Nov 13, 2014 06:23

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

a cartoon duck posted:

The Colonel Blue arc was good, because it was the arc that crossed over with Doctor Slump and gave us Goku and Arale in the same anime.

Has Arale shown up yet in DBM?

Yes. She won against Mary Sue and lost to #18.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Nov 29, 2014

# ¿ Nov 29, 2014 18:46

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Having a shared universe that lasts for decades isn't particularly conducive to consistency, no. Shonen manga are still really inconsistent about how fast things move, though. Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, for example, often seems to assume that the speed of light and "over 200 meters per second!" are basically the same thing. Dragon Ball is among the least bad about speed, but it can be inconsistent about other things (Roshi can blow up the moon but struggles against people who struggle to blow up much smaller things).

I believed it was generally accepted that Post-Crisis (pre-DCNU) Superman would win, mainly because Superman is sometimes explicitly faster than light, while Goku isn't.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2015 20:48

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Lumberjack Bonanza posted:

Smash Bros vs. DBZ needs to be a game.

I believe there's a fan-made Smash Bros game with a huge character roster that includes Goku.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2015 01:13

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 04:11

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Doesn't Rocket Child of Destiny confirm that Bardock was, in fact, a scientist?

# ¿ Feb 18, 2015 17:32

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > Dragonball Z: https://twitter.com/Love_that_Goku