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P.d0t
Dec 27, 2007
I released my finger from the trigger, and then it was over...

My Lovely Horse posted:

One of my players has made a paladin with STR and CHA 12 and CON and WIS 18. His reasoning is that he doesn't care so much about hitting as about soaking up damage and being able to Lay On Hands, and he's planning to take mainly powers with effects.

I don't think this is altogether very sensible but I'm just gonna let him do his thing and prepare to provide ample opportunity to reassig ability scores for when he stops having fun.

I've actually thought of doing some similar things; Essentials leaders have "Effect: "lines on all their attack powers, so you could pump DEX and play your Sentinel/Warpriest as an archer (however suboptimal that is).

Changing your primary attack stat in spite of your class opens up your race options, if nothing else. Skalds have a similar (read: better) sort of flexibility because everything they do keys off of basic attacks, and they can use STR or CHA for MBAs (paladins for some reason don't get this, even in essentials).

Those ideas are more for when you're the last player in the party to make their character, and it turns out you need ranged attacks and/or DEX skills and a healer. What I actually want to try is building/playing a Blackguard as an archer.

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dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord

thespaceinvader posted:

If you want to optimise damage, you kind of have to pick a trick and stick with it unfortunately. Charging's a decent one, but multi-attacking is still king.
Yeah, that's why I don't want to completely optimize damage. :)

thespaceinvader
Mar 30, 2011

The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!
Archer Blackguard works (for a given value thereof) because their encounter power and class features don't have to be melee. Doing the same with an e-leader other than the Skald will just result in you not having viable encounter or daily powers and being terrible.

P.d0t
Dec 27, 2007
I released my finger from the trigger, and then it was over...

thespaceinvader posted:

Archer Blackguard works (for a given value thereof) because their encounter power and class features don't have to be melee. Doing the same with an e-leader other than the Skald will just result in you not having viable encounter or daily powers and being terrible.

Yup. But I was just following from the quoted player's mentality of "I only care about effects."
Damage is king, dead monsters get no actions, etc.

On that line of thought, it bugs the crap out of me that they made e-leaders WIS/CON. And their class skill lists suck; that's nothing new for 4e, but Cavaliers actually saw the paladin list un-shitted up a bit so :confused:

thespaceinvader
Mar 30, 2011

The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!
Class skill lists are probably the worst thing about 4e, so...

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

thespaceinvader posted:

Class skill lists are probably the worst thing about 4e, so...
Isn't that what backgrounds are for?

P.d0t
Dec 27, 2007
I released my finger from the trigger, and then it was over...
Here's a stupid edge-case question:

Are there any good reasons to pick Half-Elf Past Life as a Revenant?

You don't get a Dilletante power, so Versatile Master is basically useless. You can't take Human or Elf feats. Are there racial paragon paths worth considering?

Legit Businessman
Sep 2, 2007


P.d0t posted:

Here's a stupid edge-case question:

Are there any good reasons to pick Half-Elf Past Life as a Revenant?

You don't get a Dilletante power, so Versatile Master is basically useless. You can't take Human or Elf feats. Are there racial paragon paths worth considering?

The Half-Elf Soul Feat from Dragon 376, allows you to get Dilletante, however, the Past Soul feat from Heroes of Shadow somewhat confuse this. If you use the most current version of the feat (from Heroes of Shadow), if you can characterize Dilettante as a racial power, then you can get it, if not, then you can only get Knack for Success.

Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Feb 9, 2014

thespaceinvader
Mar 30, 2011

The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

The Leper Colon V posted:

Isn't that what backgrounds are for?

Nope, they're for picking up weapon proficiency or making your HP based off your highest stat ;)

They are a band-aid, but they don't fix things like the Ranger getting 5 class skills and the Fighter getting only 3.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord
Okay, so the challenge:

Create a character in 4e who has any drat reason whatsoever to be running around with two pistols. Striker, is the goal. Looking at a (gasp!) custom character class.

Pistols in Zeitgeist, FYI, are kind of like Hand Crossbows, but in return for longer loading times, they get Brutal 2 and High Crit.

I'm thinking this is incredibly easy, but check me if I'm wrong here. Basically, I just want a mix of Scout and Hunter, right?

AXE COP
Apr 16, 2010

i always feel like

somebody's watching me
Making a striker class? Easy. Making a unique striker class? A little harder. Maybe you could borrow PoE's rogue mechanic and have scaling damage bonuses depending on the number of conditions the target is suffering from. Dazed? That's +1d6. Dazed, immobilised, prone and marked? +3d6 and roll twice on all your damage die. This damage would be dependent on having two ranged weapons equipped at once. Call it 'Opportunity Shot' or something.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord
Wait, I'm an idiot. Why not treat the brace of pistols as a single weapon, and treat it like a Musket?

RPZip
Feb 6, 2009

WORDS IN THE HEART
CANNOT BE TAKEN

dwarf74 posted:

Okay, so the challenge:

Create a character in 4e who has any drat reason whatsoever to be running around with two pistols. Striker, is the goal. Looking at a (gasp!) custom character class.

Pistols in Zeitgeist, FYI, are kind of like Hand Crossbows, but in return for longer loading times, they get Brutal 2 and High Crit.

I'm thinking this is incredibly easy, but check me if I'm wrong here. Basically, I just want a mix of Scout and Hunter, right?

Rogues can do well with Two-Fisted Shooter, and Drow Rogues can always pick up Ruthless Hunter to bump the damage dice to d8. The Zeitgeist CBLoader package even updates the feats to reference pistols as well, which is nice. Sharpshooter Weapon Talent doesn't work with the Zeitgeist weapons via CBLoader, but that's pretty a pretty easy fix to make. I'm going to need to update the Zeitgeist.part to include the higher-level theme bonuses when I get to that point, so if nobody's done it by then I will.

quote:

Wait, I'm an idiot. Why not treat the brace of pistols as a single weapon, and treat it like a Musket?

This also works, in which case Ranger, Seeker, Hunter, etc. are all valid options.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord
FYI, the zeitgeist .part I posted apparently un-errata's Blinding Barrage...

But yeah, I'll just do the reskin bit!

Error 404
Jul 17, 2009


MAGE CURES PLOT
What .part are you all talking about?

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


thespaceinvader posted:

Class skill lists are probably the worst thing about 4e, so...

Class proficiencies could be better, too. Fighters are proficient in almost every kind of armor and weapon, yet a lot of other melee classes don't have that kinda versatility and need to spend feats, and fighters can only have so many functional builds that use a bow or daggers or whatever.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord

Error 404 posted:

What .part are you all talking about?
It's a custom zeitgeist.part I found around on the internet (I have no idea where) and posted on the Builder Mod thread.

e: And my player loved the idea of reskinning one musket into two pistols. She'll be going with that as a ... minotaur? Well, whatever. :)

dwarf74 fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Feb 10, 2014

ArkInBlack
Mar 22, 2013
Well at least the gunsmith's level 1 ability allows you to use your primary stat for the attack roll.

P.d0t
Dec 27, 2007
I released my finger from the trigger, and then it was over...
So here's some cheese I noticed while I was looking through Heroes of the Feywild.

Skalds can use their CHA for MBAs with one-handed weapons. This possibly includes using versatile weapons two-handed.
Two-Handed Weapon Expertise gives bonuses when using two-handed weapons, but presumably doesn't work when using versatile weapons two-handed.


I think I'm about as much of a degenerate char-opper as one can be without an Insider subscription.:smithicide:

InsomniacTurtle
Aug 8, 2013
In 4e as a DM, how often am I going to draw out a dungeon room/area on the battle map? Do i just stop the play and draw something up real quick? It seems like doing that would indicate pretty clearly an encounter is about to start.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord

InsomniacTurtle posted:

In 4e as a DM, how often am I going to draw out a dungeon room/area on the battle map? Do i just stop the play and draw something up real quick? It seems like doing that would indicate pretty clearly an encounter is about to start.
I have a chessex mat I use for quick battles. Encounter begins, 2 minutes of sketching, done.

When I'm feeling industrious, I have a 1" square grid presentation pad I can prep ahead of time and bring out when the fight starts.

Don't stress about your players knowing when an encounter might start.

Elmo Oxygen
Jun 11, 2007

Kazuo Misaki Superfan #3

Don't make me lift my knee, young man.
4ed is one of those games where a seamless transition between fight-mode and explore/roleplay-mode isn't all that important. Most 4ed players get pumped up when they know it's time to roll initiative and get down to business.

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



Echoing the above. 4E is a game fundamentally about interesting combat. Players just get excited when they know that you're about to do the thing that the game is best at. Keep in mind that 'encounter' can mean a lot of things though. If there's a drawn-out room with no (visible) enemies in it, players don't know if it's a trap/puzzle room, an ambush, or what. They just know that fun is at hand.

I've also had good luck using dungeon generators beforehand and then drawing the whole thing as we go. You occasionally have to erase and redraw, and of course players know that something (trap, treasure, puzzle, or fight) is going to be in most rooms, but when you do this the act of drawing is no longer a signal.

InsomniacTurtle
Aug 8, 2013
With drawing dungeons, do I draw the entire thing out at once, or is it a room by room kind of things?

Rohan Kishibe
Oct 29, 2011

Frankly, I don't like you
and I never have.

Elmo Oxygen posted:

4ed is one of those games where a seamless transition between fight-mode and explore/roleplay-mode isn't all that important. Most 4ed players get pumped up when they know it's time to roll initiative and get down to business.

I literally have said "okay so the screen shatters, everything goes all swirly and you guys are in a fight now."

thespaceinvader
Mar 30, 2011

The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

P.d0t posted:

So here's some cheese I noticed while I was looking through Heroes of the Feywild.

Skalds can use their CHA for MBAs with one-handed weapons. This possibly includes using versatile weapons two-handed.
Two-Handed Weapon Expertise gives bonuses when using two-handed weapons, but presumably doesn't work when using versatile weapons two-handed.


I think I'm about as much of a degenerate char-opper as one can be without an Insider subscription.:smithicide:

1: Yep.

2: Nope.

And that's not even remotely close to degenerate CharOp.

Elmo Oxygen
Jun 11, 2007

Kazuo Misaki Superfan #3

Don't make me lift my knee, young man.

Prison Warden posted:

I literally have said "okay so the screen shatters, everything goes all swirly and you guys are in a fight now."

I had to call a moratorium on the final fantasy victory fanfare when a dude kept doing it after every. single. encounter.

P.d0t
Dec 27, 2007
I released my finger from the trigger, and then it was over...

InsomniacTurtle posted:

With drawing dungeons, do I draw the entire thing out at once, or is it a room by room kind of things?

Generally room by room. I have a pretty small chessex mat (20"x22"?) and every "encounter room" usually takes up the whole thing. Do the NES Zelda thing and have each room in a dungeon be the same shape, just change where the possible exits are; that's basically what our DM is doing currently.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord

InsomniacTurtle posted:

With drawing dungeons, do I draw the entire thing out at once, or is it a room by room kind of things?
Room by room, but if your mat is big enough, keep previous rooms on it, too. Never know when they'll retreat. Or be douchey with bows.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

InsomniacTurtle posted:

With drawing dungeons, do I draw the entire thing out at once, or is it a room by room kind of things?

If you have a large enough mat or a small enough dungeon, drawing the whole thing and then covering the parts they haven't been to yet saves a lot of time at the table.

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003





homullus posted:

If you have a large enough mat or a small enough dungeon, drawing the whole thing and then covering the parts they haven't been to yet saves a lot of time at the table.

I used to draw it all out on a computer then print it at my colleges library/work allows for rapid switching.

PeterWeller
Apr 21, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.

I have the whole thing drawn out on Tactiles and place them as the players explore. I will reuse a lot of maps, too. For example, I have one Neverwinter sewers map that I have used at least three times so far in our current campaign.

Captain Walker
Apr 7, 2009

Mother knows best
Listen to your mother
It's a scary world out there

PeterWeller posted:

I have the whole thing drawn out on Tactiles and place them as the players explore. I will reuse a lot of maps, too. For example, I have one Neverwinter sewers map that I have used at least three times so far in our current campaign.
You're no worse than Bethesda/Bioware, at least.

P.d0t
Dec 27, 2007
I released my finger from the trigger, and then it was over...
The throne room map from Cairn of the Winter King has seen multiple uses in my campaigns.

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.
Clapping Larry
I've been scanning maps from old Judge's Guild products and using them on Roll20

PeterWeller
Apr 21, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.

Captain Walker posted:

You're no worse than Bethesda/Bioware, at least.

Haha, that's actually where I got the idea. I figured if Bioware, with all their resources, could get away with using the same map over and over again for Baldur's Gate's extensive sewers, I could get away with doing the same for Neverwinter. I never start them in the same entrance/room and change little things here and there, but it really helps from a DMing perspective--if the players go into the sewers and have an encounter for any reason, I have a map ready for them. I also have stock "Blacklake District Alley" and "Protector's Enclave street" maps for any surface level encounters that pop up.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?
Hey, I'm working on V Daivve maps and a Masterplan file for the 4e RHOD campaign I'm running. Would anyone be interested in the files once I'm done? I'll probably upload them by parts. Or even just posts about the encounters and how they were handled? Or is there a better thread for that?

My Lovely Horse
Aug 21, 2010

For me it's mostly a design question. I can do room by room where each room will contain one encounter (and be tailored to it) or I can do a whole dungeon to explore that has a population of certain enemy types where encounter setups are more fluid and dependant on which direction the party goes. Both are fun, the latter tends to be more elaborate I think so that might be good for climactic scenes and setups whereas the first is more "here is a cave with goblins."

ObMeiste
Oct 7, 2003

The Boss doesn't like you. Get out now or you'll have some real trouble.

The Leper Colon V posted:

Hey, I'm working on V Daivve maps and a Masterplan file for the 4e RHOD campaign I'm running. Would anyone be interested in the files once I'm done? I'll probably upload them by parts. Or even just posts about the encounters and how they were handled? Or is there a better thread for that?

I'd be interested! Love me any and all extra materials to work with when possible :)

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girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?
Well, looks like I underestimated my party's capabilities. Because the walked all over the encounters. I might go back and buff them up a bit before I let anyone else see them. Because my shame at how badly they whupped what was supposed to be a tough solo fight is... significant.

They had fun at least.

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