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Elite posted:The emotional complaint makes a lot of sense though. Watching your favourite characters get completely screwed over and go through hell isn't very pleasant, even if it works out in the end. To be fair that's kinda standard operating procedure, even in season 1. Shirley, Euphie, etc. It's intentional to make the viewer empathize with Lelouch's hatred of how hosed up the world is, and want to see things changed. Mordaedil posted:I only know of this show and Death Note that have a story from the villains perspective. Akagi is very excellent and pretty much fits the moustache-twirling villain mold.
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Feb 7, 2014 17:15
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ImpAtom posted:Lelouch is totally dead and the ending makes no sense if he isn't. The entire point of what he did (for himself) was dying to redeem himself for his sins. It doesn't work if you fake your death. Even SRW writes around his death by having him saved by Celestial Being super-science, not just having him survive. I agree that makes the most sense, but I can see it going the other way. As you say, he definitely has to die at the end for the story to work, but "death" doesn't have to be literal. Even if he lived on, the human being named Lelouch is gone forever, good as dead. He can never go back to that life. So, rather than taking his survival as "happily ever after" ending, he's accepted a CC's curse of immortality in the same way he's taken on all the hatred from the world. In a way, it's even worse than death; he doesn't get to just escape from his sins, and has to continually suffer indefinitely in a sort of living-purgatory.
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Feb 9, 2014 02:28
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ImpAtom posted:It still don't make any sense though. It also means he's screwing over Suzaku one last time for no real reason other than because I guess he really wants to gently caress over Suzaku. "Hey Suzaku, you get to bear the mantel of Zero for the rest of your life, working to atone for your own sins. Meanwhile I get stabbed and now I get to go chill with my immortal girlfriend. I'm outie!" If he took her code she'd either be mortal or maybe just die immediately. (I forget how that works, but even if she was mortal I wouldn't be surprised if she just took matters into her own hands and embraced her death)
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Feb 9, 2014 04:16
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ImpAtom posted:That's really stretching. No, the reason they didn't show him surviving is obviously because they meant for him to have died. That's not the argument, because that's clearly what they intended the ending to mean. The argument is that what they intended is irrelevant if you're just talking about different ways of looking at the story. I prefer the "Lelouch dies" ending and acknowledge it's how they intended the ending, I just think it's interesting to consider other possibilities.
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Feb 9, 2014 04:51
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ImpAtom posted:Yes, but at this point, there's absolutely nothing contradicting it. This isn't like Gundam canonical stuff where two different things are contradiction. It is one flat straightly stated answer and nothing official contradicting it. There's no point anyone, anywhere, at any point has stated Lelouch survives as far as I'm aware, or even given any indication that Lelouch's survival is a matter of debate. If he wasn't a popular main character it wouldn't even be up for debate. Here's something I just thought of. If they had wanted to make some very slight indication that perhaps Lelouch survived, it would have been very easy; just include a brief scene in the epilogue showing C.C.'s corpse, or even just a blonde corpse that could possibly be her. That would be enough. They didn't do that, and not only that, they did the complete opposite. To me, that's perhaps the most telling thing of all. (yes, C.C. seems happy in the epilogue, and there's a crane, symbolizing a fulfilled wish, and you could say that implies that Lelouch took her code, but it could just as easily be taken to mean that she's happy because he showed her there's another way and she doesn't have to hate life)
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Feb 9, 2014 05:27
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Mordaedil posted:It's not really that I really wish Lelouch was not dead or anything, but I really can't parse that ending as anything but a hint to his survival. It seems like they intentionally put that in just so people could interpret it that way if they want to, leave some wiggle room for people. I mean, the creator pretty much said as much, that you can view it how you want.
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Feb 9, 2014 19:51
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BlitzBlast posted:Code Geass was all about being as overdramatic as possible. It would be really silly if at the end Lelouch decided "you know what, for once I'm gonna tone it down a little." Actually yes, because it's the end things are different. It's the resolution of a character arc, it'd be natural for him to do things differently than he had up until then, to show growth. In other words, "you know, for one, final time in my life, I'm not going to try to weasel out of things and put my interests first, I'm going to sacrifice myself for the good of everyone else instead". That's why people are saying that thematically it makes the most sense. I agree that logically there's not much reason why he would have died when, by living, he could have helped C.C. escape her suffering as well but whatever. I guess you could say that the one ending makes emotional sense, and the other one makes logical sense.
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Feb 10, 2014 03:39
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Phobophilia posted:Okay, I get pretending that your back is against the wall, making the eunuchs say something stupid, start a revolution in a neighbouring nation so you have an actual power base. Don't worry, it doesn't get weirder or more over the top than that, just keep pushing.
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May 4, 2014 13:28
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