|
Neruz posted:Yeah the WC3 custom maps scene made the SC2 custom maps scene look like a goddamn joke. Which is sad because SC2's editor is so much better and can do way more things, but I guess the huge bubble of WC3 custom map makers grew up and got jobs rather than moving on to SC2. Part of it might be a consequence of the SC2 tools being so comprehensive. You straight up have the tools they used to build the game and they're definitely a lot more complicated and powerful than any of their prior editors. Plus for example there's no reason to build a MOBA in it because Blizzard has beaten you to that. Feinne fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Jan 31, 2015 |
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 06:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 4, 2024 23:22 |
|
|
I was reasonably well involved with the WC3 custom map scene and hung around WC3Campaigns a lot, I remember a lot of the things we tried to do and wanted to do but couldn't really get to work right and almost all of them can be done relatively easily in SC2, so it's a little depressing to see that very few of those techniques are being used despite the availability. I mean gently caress some of us were writing procedurally generated top-down RPGs with full stat systems and unique resources directly in the game script which had a fancy name I can't remember.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 06:43
|
|
|
Neruz posted:I was reasonably well involved with the WC3 custom map scene and hung around WC3Campaigns a lot, I remember a lot of the things we tried to do and wanted to do but couldn't really get to work right and almost all of them can be done relatively easily in SC2, so it's a little depressing to see that very few of those techniques are being used despite the availability. It was called JASS. Apparently, SC2 also uses it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 11:30
|
|
|
Yeah that was it, and SC2 does use it though the language has been upgraded significantly since WC3 and is a lot more sensible now.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 11:48
|
|
|
Neruz posted:Yeah that was it, and SC2 does use it though the language has been upgraded significantly since WC3 and is a lot more sensible now. I used to play alot of WC3 custom map games. And I still miss them because  alot of them are good, and I will probably never ever see them ported to SC2.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 13:05
|
|
|
I recently logged on my WC3 bnet account for poo poo and giggles, and the place had like a million bots, all playing with themselves.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 13:25
|
|
|
That is beautiful 
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 13:26
|
|
|
I remember the custom campaign I spent months making in WC3(tFT) based on a game I really liked. Of course, the files are all gone today.  Did any of you play the game "I of the Dragon"? The basics of that game were that humanity was almost wiped out by a giant horde of monsters, and you, the dragon, have the job of winning the world back for mankind. You'd fly around, burning, freezing, poisoning, mind-controlling, zombinating, and/or eating monsters and destroying their lairs, while trying to establish and defend human cities. As the cities grow, they become more able to defend themselves, and the residents would sometimes even save your butt in a tough situation. One of my favorite things about the game was just watching the cities defend, with civilians running everywhere fixing stuff and extinguishing fires, knights bravely charging forward to get stomped by monsters 10 times their size, wizards zipping around on flying carpets and keeping the skies clear with big homing fireballs, and archers just shooting everything that moves and is bigger than them. They even gained levels for surviving fights.  I tried to make something similar, but instead of a dragon, you were a wizard, and didn't have a flying carpet. Then I saw the custom maps other people made and lost the will to keep making my own because those other guys were so much better than me.  I did continue tinkering with AI for skirmish games a lot, though. I really liked making various AI build orders and seeing how they handle a fight against the default one.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 13:54
|
|
|
I didn't have the patience to do an entire proper custom map on my own so I mostly did graphics for other people; starting with recoloring skins and eventually upgrading to full on 3dsmax custom models and animations. Some of my stuff might still be hosted on WC3Campaigns; I remember receiving an email from a dude last year who wanted to ask my permission to use some stuff in his map. The vast majority is probably lost forever though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 14:06
|
|
|
I still prefer the WC3 version of element TD and legion TD over the SC2 versions of them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 16:50
|
|
|
I never played around too much with the warcraft 3 editor more than just putzing around and looking, but from my experience with the sc2 editor, it's much more flexible due to everything being modular. This means that yes, you can do just about everything in editor without resorting to scripts, but there is a lot of busy work cost to that and it's almost a pain in the rear end with how modular it is. It's also for a game that wasn't built around heroes with multi-level skills that they upgraded as they leveled up, and while I never did anything other than copy paste jobs in warcraft 3, any map attempting to emulate that sort of model in SC2 will be faced with creating a lot of tedious near duplicate skills to make everything function. Or I could just be an idiot who never used the editor right, who knows?
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 17:47
|
|
|
Yeah that's what I'm getting at, the tools you are given are so powerful as to be potentially daunting. It's not even being an idiot not using it right, because again they're the same tools the developers themselves use to make the campaigns and Heroes of the Storm (though I'd suspect they've customized the tools for HotS to streamline hero creation and testing).
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 18:16
|
|
|
my dad posted:Did any of you play the game "I of the Dragon"? The basics of that game were that humanity was almost wiped out by a giant horde of monsters, and you, the dragon, have the job of winning the world back for mankind. You'd fly around, burning, freezing, poisoning, mind-controlling, zombinating, and/or eating monsters and destroying their lairs, while trying to establish and defend human cities. As the cities grow, they become more able to defend themselves, and the residents would sometimes even save your butt in a tough situation. One of my favorite things about the game was just watching the cities defend, with civilians running everywhere fixing stuff and extinguishing fires, knights bravely charging forward to get stomped by monsters 10 times their size, wizards zipping around on flying carpets and keeping the skies clear with big homing fireballs, and archers just shooting everything that moves and is bigger than them. They even gained levels for surviving fights. Was this a WCIII map or a different game? Wanna play the hell out of that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 19:18
|
|
|
RickVoid posted:Was this a WCIII map or a different game? Wanna play the hell out of that. A different game, and I tried to make a series of WC3 maps like it, but gave up eventually. Here's a trailer for the game made by mix-and-matching parts of the intro video and narration (which is why it looks and sounds so disjointed) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEr0kxm7Wdg And some gameplay footage from a random let's play I just googled: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kySIDqzLeo8&list=PLvPGxXZPgG8PmNul0TpTF_uHcYhy1plMZ#t=993 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-n59flpcHI&list=PLvPGxXZPgG8PmNul0TpTF_uHcYhy1plMZ#t=767 (Imagine more fire-breathing and volcanoes if you're playing the red dragon, and more zombies if you're playing the black dragon) It's a flawed game in many ways, and runs like poo poo on modern systems, but has some inexplicable charm, and a lot of great (if poorly implemented) ideas.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 20:02
|
|
|
I guess my biggest hangup about the arcade is that I enjoy maps that I can play by myself so I can play them for 15-30 minutes and then duck out if I need to do stuff. I actually don't mind special forces for that as long as the map doesn't have time triggers, but eventually it makes the game slow to a crawl and every game plays out the same.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2015 20:37
|
|
|
Torrannor posted:Goons are the worst, I wonder what kind of thing you people are smoking. The HotS campaign was not embarrassingly bad. If you could take Raynor's obsession with Kerrigan in WoL, you can endure similar things in the HotS campaign. For the rest, the story is a pretty average science/fantasy story, it won't win any prizes but it's not a ridiculous illogical plot either. The retcons can bug you if you know your Starcraft lore, but other than that it's perfectly fine to establish a framework for the missions to take place in. The HotS campaign is fun gameplay wise, and that's the important thing in my opinion. I just finished Heart of the Swarm the other day and I'll agree with this. It wasn't a great story, it was very predictable and by-the-numbers, and Kerrigan makes a lot of really terrible life decisions, but it wasn't "the worst thing ever".
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 23:49
|
|
|
I guess it's more that nothing that happens makes any narrative sense and the callbacks to Brood War are really forced and meaningless.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2015 23:54
|
|
|
And from what I can tell they completely and utterly ruin the backstory in the Starcraft 1 manual. Well, in essence.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 00:39
|
|
|
George posted:I guess it's more that nothing that happens makes any narrative sense and the callbacks to Brood War are really forced and meaningless. Basically this, from a narrative standpoint HotS is monkeys on typewriters level of organization. Metzen's Big Retcon for the Starcraft Universe could have been handled alright if he wasn't more obsessed with Kerrigan than Raynor.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 02:20
|
|
|
Slaan posted:And from what I can tell they completely and utterly ruin the backstory in the Starcraft 1 manual. Well, in ESSENCE! 
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 02:29
|
|
|
ESSENCE! In all seriousness though HotS really doesn't ruin the original Starcraft backstory as much as it feels like, or rather it didn't have to ruin the original backstory as much as it did. The whole retcon could easily have been explained in-universe but either Metzen hosed up again and forgot\didn't care or any explanation had to be cut along with a lot of other content because otherwise Kerrigan couldn't be super awesome.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 02:45
|
|
|
Neruz posted:Yeah the WC3 custom maps scene made the SC2 custom maps scene look like a goddamn joke. Which is sad because SC2's editor is so much better and can do way more things, but I guess the huge bubble of WC3 custom map makers grew up and got jobs rather than moving on to SC2. I was actually looking forward to making SC2 maps myself at one point (having a much better understanding of mapmaking now), but was quickly discouraged when I realized my maps likely would not be played by anyone and thus it would be a huge waste of time. This was probably the mentality of most of the people coming over from the WC3 UMS scene. Thankfully, they recently added a basic lobby search feature similar to WC3... as well as every other multiplayer game ever created that is not Starcraft 2. Why it took them three years to do this, I'll never understand. Bonfiesta fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Feb 4, 2015 |
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 04:33
|
|
|
As an aside, I really miss the era where games came with huge in depth manuals of lore like the original StarCraft manual.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 04:34
|
|
|
Bonfiesta posted:Thankfully, they recently added a basic lobby search feature similar to WC3... as well as every other multiplayer game ever created that is not Starcraft 2. Why it took them three years to do this, I'll never understand. From memory SC2's release was the big revamp of Battlenet and while some parts of the revamped Battlenet were a huge improvement a few of the ideas Blizzard had for Battlenet turned out to be kind of total poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 04:48
|
|
|
Well, one of the ideas that they thankfully scrapped was them forcing you to use your real life name for any and all battle.net communications.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 04:55
|
|
|
Soylent Pudding posted:As an aside, I really miss the era where games came with huge in depth manuals of lore like the original StarCraft manual. I'd settle for colored manuals coming back in general, personally.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 04:56
|
|
|
For anyone who wants to get their feet wet in multiplayer, I recommend team games to get you started. Things do not work the same way as in 1v1. For example:  For those who don't know how to read it, that is an ultralisk cavern started at 7:30. Ultralisk caverns require zerg to get Hive. For context, zergs usually upgrade to Hive somewhere around 18 minutes.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 05:04
|
|
|
Yeah normal tech timers do not mean poo poo in team games; 10 minute Battlecruisers are a thing that happens
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 05:09
|
|
|
Speaking of game modes: I have been looking into features previewed for Legacy of the Void. One of them is called "Archon Mode," and basically amounts to two players controlling one base, against a similar team or teams. This is weird to me because I remember playing multiplayer games that worked like that in SC1/BW.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 05:14
|
|
|
GunnerJ posted:Speaking of game modes: I have been looking into features previewed for Legacy of the Void. One of them is called "Archon Mode," and basically amounts to two players controlling one base, against a similar team or teams. This is weird to me because I remember playing multiplayer games that worked like that in SC1/BW. If I recall I think some of the age of empires games did this as well if you picked the same color.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 05:17
|
|
|
GunnerJ posted:Speaking of game modes: I have been looking into features previewed for Legacy of the Void. One of them is called "Archon Mode," and basically amounts to two players controlling one base, against a similar team or teams. This is weird to me because I remember playing multiplayer games that worked like that in SC1/BW. SC1 and I think the Warcraft strategy games included a thing called 'shared control' that let you control an allies units if he clicked the box. That's probably what you're remembering. There may also have been some custom maps that used the functionality to achieve 1 base controlled by 2+ or more people.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 05:21
|
|
|
Neruz posted:SC1 and I think the Warcraft strategy games included a thing called 'shared control' that let you control an allies units if he clicked the box. That's probably what you're remembering. There may also have been some custom maps that used the functionality to achieve 1 base controlled by 2+ or more people. Rise of Nations: Rise of Legends also had a fun little feature/bug where observers could still control units for whatever poor bastard was stuck in the Player1 position.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 05:23
|
|
|
SC2 has the ability to grant control to your allies in multiplayer maps.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 05:27
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:SC2 has the ability to grant control to your allies in multiplayer maps. This is distinctly different from Archon mode (which was in SC1/BW as "Team Melee"). Shared control allows another player to move and issue commands to your units, and to raise/lower depots. They are unable to utilize your production or research facilities, and are their own distinct player. Furthermore, they cannot include your units in control groups, and if they try to box your units while one of theirs is around, your units will not be selected. Archon mode has to humans controlling a single "player." One pool of resources, no restrictions on what they can and cannot do with units/structures, etc.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 05:35
|
|
|
Synastren posted:This is distinctly different from Archon mode (which was in SC1/BW as "Team Melee"). Yes, that's what it was called! I saw a video a while ago about how Archon Mode was the next big thing, and will save starcraft, and it struck me as super weird because it sounded exactly like this gimmicky SC1/BW mode that I don't remember being very popular.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 05:46
|
|
|
GunnerJ posted:Yes, that's what it was called! I saw a video a while ago about how Archon Mode was the next big thing, and will save starcraft, and it struck me as super weird because it sounded exactly like this gimmicky SC1/BW mode that I don't remember being very popular. I think it'll be an interesting gimmick at least but from the announce at Blizzcon it was sold more like 'we came up with the name for this mode and had to do it because we thought it was pretty funny and maybe you'll enjoy giving it a whirl at some point' than a major selling point for the expansion. Other people may have said other things since but they just sort of mentioned it as 'hey yeah even if you're kinda poo poo at starcraft you can get a feel for what it's like to have higher APM by literally having two players doing things at once.'
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 06:50
|
|
|
Feinne posted:I think it'll be an interesting gimmick at least but from the announce at Blizzcon it was sold more like 'we came up with the name for this mode and had to do it because we thought it was pretty funny and maybe you'll enjoy giving it a whirl at some point' than a major selling point for the expansion. Other people may have said other things since but they just sort of mentioned it as 'hey yeah even if you're kinda poo poo at starcraft you can get a feel for what it's like to have higher APM by literally having two players doing things at once.' Well, to be fair this was just one guy saying that as far as I know. I don't know if he's representative of any more general trend of opinion. What you're talking about here seems more reasonable.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 06:55
|
|
|
While I doubt the mode will be a huge selling point you could probably do something entertaining with planning. One guy handles the base building while the other guy handles the army, or one guy micros marines and medivac raiders while the other guy controls a mech assault on your front door
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 07:18
|
|
|
Neruz posted:SC1 and I think the Warcraft strategy games included a thing called 'shared control' that let you control an allies units if he clicked the box. That's probably what you're remembering. There may also have been some custom maps that used the functionality to achieve 1 base controlled by 2+ or more people. That's incorrect. If you played a team melee (or any of the other team options), you would start the game with the town hall of one of the races in your team and a mixture of four workers across all the different races in your team. So if you were in a team of three and everyone chose a different race, you would start the game with a nexus, two probes, an SCV, and a drone. Everyone shares the same income and can control any unit or building that the group has. If more than one person in the team choose the same race, then you also got a supply bonus where your maximum supply for that race was an extra 200 for each person that chose the same race.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 07:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 4, 2024 23:22 |
|
|
Star Man posted:That's incorrect. If you played a team melee (or any of the other team options), you would start the game with the town hall of one of the races in your team and a mixture of four workers across all the different races in your team. So if you were in a team of three and everyone chose a different race, you would start the game with a nexus, two probes, an SCV, and a drone. Everyone shares the same income and can control any unit or building that the group has. If more than one person in the team choose the same race, then you also got a supply bonus where your maximum supply for that race was an extra 200 for each person that chose the same race. Yeah I forgot that Team Melee even existed but now that it's been mentioned I remember trying it once.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2015 07:29
|
|