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Rap posted:OK, and what have those methods shown us? What's that percentage of brains studied that have shown CTE? Well, right now the only way to diagnose CTE is a pathologist has to do a dissection of the brain. That said, its not always easy to get a hold of those brains. Have you read League of Denial? It details races between competing entities (including the NFL) to get the brains of those who have died and are suspected of having CTE. And by percentage do you mean among NFL players? Boxers? The general population (which may or may not include those at a higher risk of developing CTE such as boxers or football players). I don't know the number off the top of my head for the specific groups, and I highly doubt there is any data on the general population. Keep in mind that when they do these types of autopsies, they are looking for CTE. In other words, unlike a lot of other conditions, CTE is not found incidentally on autopsy. Not everyone gets autopsied, and not everyone who gets autopsied has that detailed an examination of the brain. Its also important to keep in mind that the currently proposed pathogenesis of CTE is not repeated concussions, but chronic, continuous sub-concussive blows, similar to those experienced by linemen in the first second after that ball is snapped. In fact, from a CTE prospective, its better to be a Wes Welker, and even Jahvid Best than it is to be any offensive or defensive linemen. At least, this is what the current data suggests.
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Feb 18, 2014 06:33
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No, we don't know how much it might appear in the general population. But the prevalence of CTE among football players could be extremely high. I'm having trouble finding a case where they looked for it and didn't find it. So it's more rare than we think it is, even though every time they look they find it?
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Feb 18, 2014 06:42
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Rap posted:No, we don't know how much it might appear in the general population. But the prevalence of CTE among football players could be extremely high. I'm having trouble finding a case where they looked for it and didn't find it. So it's more rare than we think it is, even though every time they look they find it? Again, they are looking for it. Its how you start to build the knowledge about a disease. You wouldn't look for CTE in a newborn that died of pneumonia. They specifically isolate cases that they believe will have CTE and examine the brains. The idea is to get a specific set of conditions that they can then use to diagnose and define CTE. Once they have this criteria, they expand the study to include healthy brains and the general population to see if it isn't incidental. With CTE, these researchers are trying to define a brand new disease, which is incredibly difficult to do in one that exists in the general population. These people are trying to do it in a very small population. In general, if you want to learn about epidemiology, a good place to start is to look up what case studies are. Then compare that to longitudinal studies and cohort studies. They find it every time they look for it because they are not performing an autopsy on everyone who played football. They are only looking at people who they have a high suspicion of having the disease. It would be like if I was trying to find a link between smokers and lung cancer. I am only going to look at people who died and had pulmonary symptoms. I am basically going to ignore those who smoked but died of some other condition entirely until I have a decent set of data which I can use to compare and determine if it was from lung cancer or something else.
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Feb 18, 2014 06:50
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Rap posted:No, we don't know how much it might appear in the general population. But the prevalence of CTE among football players could be extremely high. I'm having trouble finding a case where they looked for it and didn't find it. So it's more rare than we think it is, even though every time they look they find it? Well, in most cases I've read they are examining people who had CTE like symptoms while they were alive, and it should be somewhat unsurprising when it is confirmed in an autopsy. I'm pretty far from a statistician, but I assume at the very least you would need a proper random sample in order to determine how common it is among NFL players. e: Probably just want to read the post above mine on this.
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Feb 18, 2014 06:51
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Chris Henry had symptoms? A 17-year-old high school kid had symptoms? Junior Seau was acting crazy before he killed himself?
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Feb 18, 2014 06:55
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How long do these tests take out of curiosity? They apparently exhumed Jovan Belcher for testing sometime in December but I haven't heard anything since then.
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Feb 18, 2014 07:00
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Rap posted:Chris Henry had symptoms? A 17-year-old high school kid had symptoms? Junior Seau was acting crazy before he killed himself? Its hard to say these people had symptoms when we don't yet know exactly what these symptoms are. This disease is in its infancy and yes there are some signs and symptoms that are consistent form case to case, but as a physician I can't comment on things like what you are saying, because I haven't interviewed them nor read their medical charts. Have medical officials come out and said they had symptoms of CTE or is it the media just saying "they were acting weird"? Its important because if we want this disease recognized and something to be done about it, we first need data and study of it with the same rigor that we apply to any other disease. This is the first I am hearing that Chris Henry had symptoms. And if he had symptoms, how are they discernible from a whole host of other symptoms that indicate something else? The same symptoms of CTE could also be attributed to early onset Alzheimers (a genetic form that can affect people in their 20'). Why can't those symptoms be tied to cancer, autoimmune diseases, and literally thousands of other things that can affect the CNS? Assuming that its CTE related because they played football is dangerous and would setback research in that area, and others back by years. There is a reason a protocol is in place to define and learn about new diseases. Also, you named 3 cases out of tens of thousands of players. Not exactly the statistical power we are looking for.
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Feb 18, 2014 07:06
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Has there been any research at all done by the DoD of guys coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan? I'd imagine combat provides all sorts of magnificent opportunities to get a concussion
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Feb 18, 2014 07:07
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swickles posted:Its hard to say these people had symptoms when we don't yet know exactly what these symptoms are. quote:They specifically isolate cases that they believe will have CTE and examine the brains. quote:This is the first I am hearing that Chris Henry had symptoms.
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Feb 18, 2014 07:09
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swickles posted:This disease is in its infancy This brings up another question I had, I thought (perhaps very mistakenly) that CTE in football players was basically the same thing as pugilistic dementia, is that wrong? I guess I don't have any clue how many studies have gone on with those guys but I think it's been recognized as a problem for close to a century by now. I guess we should probably dig up a CTE thread or start a new one if we keep this conversation going, at the very least it seems like blind speculation in Sharper's case.
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Feb 18, 2014 07:18
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Sash! posted:Has there been any research at all done by the DoD of guys coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan? I'd imagine combat provides all sorts of magnificent opportunities to get a concussion Again, its not a single concussion or even several concussions. Currently its thought that its caused by repeated, frequent, sub-concussive blows. So a soldiers would actually be a poor population, at least by the current thinking. Rap posted:I would swear you just said they're only testing for it in people who have shown signs of it When you are trying to define a disease, you first look at a patient. That patient will show a ton of signs and symptoms. Many of those will turn out to not be related to the disease you are trying to define. For instance, lets say a player is suspected of having CTE because they are (in your words) acting crazy before their death. But they were a lineman, are now overweight and also have diabetes and hypertension and metabolic syndrome. Also, they drink a ton which may or may not be related to a possible CTE diagnosis and they have liver, pancreas, and neurological damage from it. You need to isolate the signs and symptoms that occur in not just this patient, but all the others you get that could be a result of CTE. We look for CTE based on hunches, and so we cast a very very wide net. As we examine these players, we may find that symptom X or sign Y is not of significance, and we narrow our net until we have a clear picture of what this disease is. As for Chris Henry, he didn't have clinical symptoms as you said. However, again, we know very little about the pathogenesis of this disease. The lesions may develop early on, but the signs and symptoms don't appear for years or at all. You are trying to draw a lot of conclusions from isolated findings in a disease the medical community and even the experts know very little about. Like I said, we are still trying to define this disease and what it is. Its not like diabetes or something that has been known about for thousands of years. edit: drat, its late. I will make a CTE megathread if there is interest in it in the next few days. swickles fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Feb 18, 2014 07:20
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So basically the summary is, they've found it every time they've looked including in wide receivers and safeties, not typical "repeated subconcussive hits" positions, and CTE is highly suspected of influencing people's behavior, but for someone to suggest Darren Sharper had it and it influenced his behavior is crazy, and also it probably doesn't happen as often as people think even though the evidence so far says every NFL player could have it.
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Feb 18, 2014 07:25
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Oh for fucks sake shut up. Swickles just wanted to say that maybe we shouldn't just jump on the CTE train with Sharper, as CTE is TFFs new fencing response. Every post since then has been him trying to explain we don't really know what CTE is or causes it exactly. Now we have swickles trying to medical knowledge rap into submission and rap trying to get swickles to write himself into a corner. SAVE US NEW MOD Darren Sharper is a scumbag rapist. That's what matters here. Why can't we talk about how much of a scumbag rapist he is? Because the drugging and stuff, this guy is a calculated scumbag holy poo poo
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Feb 18, 2014 07:51
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Except its not found in every player. You have a great example of confirmation bias going. You only hear about when its found in players, no one ever reports when it isn't found.
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Feb 18, 2014 07:51
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swickles posted:Except its not found in every player. You have a great example of confirmation bias going. You only hear about when its found in players, no one ever reports when it isn't found. I agree that the "CTE is responsible for rape" talk is ridiculous and I'm not trying to challenge that at all, but I thought that almost all of the former players they had specifically checked for CTE had been found with it. As in 35/36 had it and the last guy who did not was a backup qb. Also if you're willing to make that megathread I'd be interested in reading it. We should spend the offseason learning about that at the very least.
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Feb 18, 2014 07:56
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I think the fact that the Darren Sharper rape thread is now about CTE proves that posting on the internet causes CTE.
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Feb 18, 2014 12:18
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Chris Henry probably got CTE just a few hours before he died.
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Feb 18, 2014 14:51
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Getting a CTE smdh
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Feb 18, 2014 14:57
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Rap posted:So basically the summary is, they've found it every time they've looked including in wide receivers and safeties, not typical "repeated subconcussive hits" positions, and CTE is highly suspected of influencing people's behavior, but for someone to suggest Darren Sharper had it and it influenced his behavior is crazy, and also it probably doesn't happen as often as people think even though the evidence so far says every NFL player could have it. Rap what's going on with you buddy?
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Feb 18, 2014 14:58
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The guy made excessive plans to date rape two girls. That doesn't sound like a random act of craziness caused by CTE to me, that sounds like premeditated sexual abuse. I'm not even sure why we're dwelling on CTE since this clearly isn't an act of passion but calculated malice.
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Feb 18, 2014 16:21
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Probably Magic posted:The guy made excessive plans to date rape two girls. That doesn't sound like a random act of craziness caused by CTE to me, that sounds like premeditated sexual abuse. I'm not even sure why we're dwelling on CTE since this clearly isn't an act of passion but calculated malice. No but you see it totally could be because what if he did it because he was less inhibited because CTE lowered his filters and to quote BBP what if I'm gay *farts* Why can't Sharper just be a shitbag why does it have to be brain damage
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Feb 18, 2014 16:50
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Double post caused by CTE, can't blame me for hitting quote and not edit, it's mah brain damage
Febreeze fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Feb 18, 2014 16:51
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wait febreeze posted, and no one responded to him, but then he posted again, but then he said double post caused by cte in his original post, but then theres another post by febreeze but how did he know he was going to double post in his original post, excuse me if you will i was playing one of those shaking flight simulator games at dave and busters this weekend and i might have cte too
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Feb 18, 2014 17:12
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What if none of us are bad posters what if we all have CTE
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Feb 18, 2014 17:16
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CTE raped this thread.
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Feb 18, 2014 17:17
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if a guy and a girl meet at a club and have sex with each other, but they both have cte, is that rape?
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Feb 18, 2014 17:24
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Hardfl1p posted:if a guy and a girl meet at a club and have sex with each other, but they both have cte, is that rape? haha Probably Magic posted:The guy made excessive plans to date rape two girls. That doesn't sound like a random act of craziness caused by CTE to me, that sounds like premeditated sexual abuse. I'm not even sure why we're dwelling on CTE since this clearly isn't an act of passion but calculated malice. But you see, ~*~*~the issues~*~*~
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Feb 18, 2014 17:27
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When you're talking about chronic traumatic encephalopathy, say chronic traumatic encephalopathy. If a pretty girl hears you talking about it she'll think you're smart and give you dome straight away.
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Feb 18, 2014 17:34
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Oh my, my inhibitions are so down, I just on the spur of the moment bought this Ambien and morphine, and oh ho ho, I appear to have had another lapse of sanity and slipped these girls a mickey and raped them, my oh my, and then, funny thing, the exact same thing happened later, the whole sequence of events, and it was like an out-of-body experience, clearly wasn't capable of coherent thought, just happened, weird, huh?
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Feb 18, 2014 17:37
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Every time a player does something bad no it's totally the fault of chronic traumatic encephalopathy (wink wink). Lets look at it -Mike Vick, never played a full season healthy and took a ton of hits...and killed dogs. COINCIDENCE? -Hernandez killed people. That wasn't gang violence and being a lovely person, see it was cause he got his bell rung a few too many times. -GREGG WILLIAMS USED TO HAVE ONE G IN HIS NAME, BUT STARTED FORGETTING HE WROTE THE FIRST ONE AND STARTED WRITING TWO TO BE SURE. BRAIN DAMAGE. I MEAN IT'S SO OBVIOUS. But what? Are you saying this could be the cause of just being a shithead? We don't have enough evidence to actually completely blame CTE? Well, we also don't have enough evidence to Not blame CTE. Checkmate, athiests
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Feb 18, 2014 17:41
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Hardfl1p posted:if a guy and a girl meet at a club and have sex with each other, but they both have cte, is that rape? How lovely am i for consistently laughing at your posts
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Feb 18, 2014 17:51
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Ok well I intended my last post to wrap up the derail, sorry guys you know I'd always prefer jokes but I don't really joke about rape so much and I thought a lot of that dismissal was pretty full of poo poo including telling me it's confirmation bias and not bothering to produce even one case where it wasn't found
v2vian man fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Feb 18, 2014 17:54
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Rap posted:Ok well I intended my last post to wrap up the derail, sorry guys you know I'd always prefer jokes but I don't really joke about rape so much and I thought a lot of that dismissal was pretty full of poo poo including telling me it's confirmation bias author bothering to produce even one case where it wasn't found You've been really ornery the last week or so. Everything ok man?
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Feb 18, 2014 17:59
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Chichevache posted:You've been really ornery the last week or so. Everything ok man? CTE
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Feb 18, 2014 18:04
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AAA DOLFAN posted:Rap what's going on with you buddy? Chichevache posted:You've been really ornery the last week or so. Everything ok man? One step ahead of ya, slowpoke! But seriously i have noticed the same and hope all is well. I know how lovely it can be to move to a big new city without really anyone or anything
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Feb 18, 2014 18:04
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Rap posted:Ok well I intended my last post to wrap up the derail, sorry guys you know I'd always prefer jokes but I don't really joke about rape so much and I thought a lot of that dismissal was pretty full of poo poo including telling me it's confirmation bias and not bothering to produce even one case where it wasn't found *Proceeds to look up Sandusky thread* The point really shouldn't be, "Can Swickles magically explain it wasn't CTE?" and more, "Come on, CTE can't be blamed for this because it doesn't match even the other cases where CTE was found." He didn't kill himself or his wife in a fit of fury, he date-raped girls. Anyway, are there any new developments in this case?
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Feb 18, 2014 18:07
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AAA DOLFAN posted:How lovely am i for consistently laughing at your posts pretty loving
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Feb 18, 2014 18:09
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AAA DOLFAN posted:One step ahead of ya, slowpoke! That's what I moved away from actually. And I think you guys are maybe just responding to this thread and when I also went after swickles in another thread and frankly crazy it's got me worried about you just as much Chiche I don't worry about you pal, at this point I know you're doing you in your own way
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Feb 18, 2014 18:10
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This is giving me a headache guys. Back to the guy who managed to make Warren Sapp not the worst guy on NFL Network.
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Feb 18, 2014 18:13
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Rap posted:That's what I moved away from actually. And I think you guys are maybe just responding to this thread and when I also went after swickles in another thread and frankly crazy it's got me worried about you just as much Huh? I've read this over and over and don't really understand it but I appreciate any concern. I wasn't being mean or sarcastic, you just seem much different so I was asking
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Feb 18, 2014 18:16
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