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mobby_6kl posted:Oh hey there, just saw this thread, thought I'd share what I posted in the D&D one: It was mainly on the 18th and 19th things were disrupted. Metro shutting down, plumes of black smoke, the wretched smell and burning tires, and stores being ransacked for bread and non perishables. Its only the road to parliament and pressing toward the Dniper that are incredibly dangerous. Tell your mom and her friends to avoid groups of people in Addidas track suits, other than that, they should be in good shape! Snowdens Secret posted:Hey OP I don't really have anything to add beyond thanks for posting and hoping y'all stay safe PLANES CURE TOWERS posted:Same here, thanks for the inside look. Stay safe man. Thanks guys, I just feel like spreading information is the best thing I can do. utjkju posted:Some people in Ukraine and Russia confuse democracy with anarchy It is a very Slavic trait
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Feb 21, 2014 10:36
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Great news: The metro is back running and after an all night debate parliament has voted on taking the Berkuit off the street, opening roads into Kiev, and banning the use of firearms. For full information you can read here: http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1392931917 Additionally, the EU has decided to take action with sanctions and condemnation: http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1392924554 The ruling party, "Party of Regions" are also fleeing or resigning. I haven't gone back to the center, but it seems that they will be stemming the violence. In other regions the assaults on party region headquarters is continuing. Prior to the 18th these buildings were occupied, but returned to the hands of politicians. Following the violence on the 18th, these buildings have been sacked and burned in a lot of cities, namely the west. In all of these videos you can hear the chats I mentioned in the OP, you can understand what they are saying. Videos from Ivano Frankivsk, Lviv, and Lutsk: http://dyvys.info/polityka/ivano-frankivske-sbu-horyt-video.html http://dyvys.info/polityka/u-lvovi-horyt-vijskova-chastuna-video.html http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/02/19/7014697/ The US embassy has also issued this warning for citizens in Ukraine: The Department of State warns U.S. citizens to defer all non-essential travel to Ukraine due to the ongoing political unrest and violent clashes between police and protestors. U.S. citizens in Ukraine, and those considering travel to Ukraine, should evaluate their personal security situation in light of the escalating violence, particularly in Kyiv. This replaces the Travel Alert for Ukraine dated February 18, 2014. On February 20, 2014, the Department of State authorized the departure of all family members of U.S. government personnel from Ukraine. While the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv’s Consular Section is open for public services, the Embassy’s ability to respond to emergencies involving U.S. citizens throughout Ukraine is limited. But so far, things seem REALLY positive. If you have any questions or news to add, please feel free! Tankus fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 10:49
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Namarrgon posted:Police were just following orders man. That will be a lovely defense in the trails that follow. To an extent I get that the Berkut were "doing their job" but to have snipers firing on unarmed citizens and medics, that takes a special level of brainwashing and brutality. Also, pigdog, I think you could benefit from doing a bit more research before condemning or exonerating people involved in something you have little idea about.
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Feb 21, 2014 10:58
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Hey, the Jews used peaceful resistance against a totalitarian regime back in the 30s and it works out great for them.
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Feb 21, 2014 11:56
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Ironically in the 1920s the Nazis did a fair share of streetfighting themselves, and were victimized when the Weimar republic opened fire on them during the Beer Hall Putsch.
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Feb 21, 2014 12:28
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pigdog posted:Ironically in the 1920s the Nazis did a fair share of streetfighting themselves, and were victimized when the Weimar republic opened fire on them during the Beer Hall Putsch. Did you just.....
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Feb 21, 2014 12:34
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Nevermind
Tankus fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 12:46
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gfanikf posted:Did you just..... Sorry, was just responding to psydude's driveby godwin. I think the demonstrators like Tankus have pure motives, and I can absolutely understand the sense of national unity that makes particular affiliations not matter at given moment. All I'm saying, just because the government is acting like a dickbag doesn't mean the protestors themselves are beyond criticism.
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Feb 21, 2014 12:48
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From Aljazeera [UPDATE]: Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich has announced an agreement to hold presidential elections early, form a national unity government and make constitutional changes reducing his powers. Read more: http://aje.me/1d9n3fI This will likely be turned down, since people have lost all faith in him and his party and want him and every vestige of his government gone.
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Feb 21, 2014 12:48
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I spent a week in Kiev last May, and I stayed in a hostel overlooking Maidan, so this whole thing is really blowing my mind. When I was there I read about the whole Yulia Tymoshenko thing, and I got the impression Yanukovich imprisoned her on false charges just to get her out of the way. Then someone in the D&D thread said Tymoshenko was "robbing Ukraine blind" and deserved to be jailed. So what's the real deal?
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Feb 22, 2014 03:17
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I'm curious as to how much influence/effect the memory of the Holodomor had on the protests, if any.
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Feb 22, 2014 03:40
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GuavaMoment posted:I spent a week in Kiev last May, and I stayed in a hostel overlooking Maidan, so this whole thing is really blowing my mind. When I was there I read about the whole Yulia Tymoshenko thing, and I got the impression Yanukovich imprisoned her on false charges just to get her out of the way. Then someone in the D&D thread said Tymoshenko was "robbing Ukraine blind" and deserved to be jailed. So what's the real deal? Both are true. She was a political roadblock and was dealt with and she was stealing money from the country. What she didnt do however was steal so much it undermined the country itself nor did she change the constitution to grant herself more power. Yanakovich really is a truly impressive creature in terms of how openly he has been loving Ukraine. By the way, yesterday they repealed the laws that were keeping her in prison, so she might be free fairly soon Outside Dawg posted:I'm curious as to how much influence/effect the memory of the Holodomor had on the protests, if any. I havent seen or heard any mention of it. Deaths from collectivization under the Soviet regime are seen as a Russo/Soviet-Ukrainian issue, and on Maidan Russia is hardly ever mentioned.
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Feb 22, 2014 09:21
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Update: Fighting has stopped, guns have been removed, Berkut are being sent home, and the man hunt for snipers has started. things are looking up, and it is amazing. The energy here is palpable. Ill write more when i have time. Watch this video, its AMAZING, its in Russian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNq7hWpQ2KY
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Feb 22, 2014 09:24
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I don't fully understand this but if both sides are terrible (Tymoshenko and Yanakovich) than what was this fight for?Tankus posted:Watch this video, its AMAZING, its in Russian: I wouldn't call it amazing, it looks just like some advertisement and nationalistic dreck. First 30 seconds reminds me of a Superannuation (Pension) ad and then it morphed into some terrible action movie. The tone of voice of the guy and music were trying way too hard to create emotions. The only people who would like it are those who have a dog in this race.
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Feb 22, 2014 14:34
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Lord Windy posted:I don't fully understand this but if both sides are terrible (Tymoshenko and Yanakovich) than what was this fight for? It's not as if the choice is just between those two? They can elect other people?
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Feb 22, 2014 15:44
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Is it true that part of Ukraine has declared itself autonomous or is this some sort of bizarre mistranslation? Also, have you heard anything about the Crimean region looking to secede (as they apparently have a pro-government stance generally). e: What's the correct transliteration of Kiev? Kyev or Kiev? Noctis Horrendae fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Feb 23, 2014 |
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Feb 23, 2014 05:09
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Tankus posted:... Well that's a pretty good rule to follow at any time, but thanks!  Noctis Horrendae posted:Is it true that part of Ukraine has declared itself autonomous or is this some sort of bizarre mistranslation? Yeah that was Lviv, back when Yanukovich was still in power. I don't think that's anything more than a gesture though. The Crimea and south-east in general are certainly more Russian but I doubt they'll miss Yanukovich that much, and secession would be too much of a pain in the rear end for everyone involved. That said, it's still a bit difficult to tell who wants what at the moment. Kyiv is the officially preferred version, since it directly follows from the Ukrainian spelling/pronunciation, but Kiev's also fine. Namarrgon posted:It's not as if the choice is just between those two? They can elect other people? Tymoshenko was trying awfully hard to make it about herself with yesterday's speech, but hopefully people didn't really buy that.
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Feb 23, 2014 11:00
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mobby_6kl posted:Tymoshenko was trying awfully hard to make it about herself with yesterday's speech, but hopefully people didn't really buy that. What do you think the odds are that she will be successful in regaining power? Is there a substantial portion of the protesters who would be happy to have her back? It seems like that would be a bitter disappointment for a lot of Ukrainians who have been hoping for fundamental change. It just seems so transparently opportunistic for her to show up and essentially declare, "I'm just like you! I want the exact same things that you want!"
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Feb 23, 2014 14:28
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Although I am reluctant to share a link to the Daily Mail, these photos of Yanukovich's estate are just incredible.
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Feb 23, 2014 16:13
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jimma posted:Although I am reluctant to share a link to the Daily Mail, these photos of Yanukovich's estate are just incredible. I'm actually a bit disappointed - it seems like every revolution comes with an episode of "Cribs - Dictator Edition" and quite frankly, they jumped the shark at Qaddafi.
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Feb 23, 2014 18:05
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Delta-Wye posted:I'm actually a bit disappointed - it seems like every revolution comes with an episode of "Cribs - Dictator Edition" and quite frankly, they jumped the shark at Qaddafi.
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Feb 23, 2014 19:30
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Lord Windy posted:I don't fully understand this but if both sides are terrible (Tymoshenko and Yanakovich) than what was this fight for? Its not a "sides" thing. They want a totally new government. Which is a bit of a downside and is going to lead to a lot of issues in the coming months and possibly years. There is no solid leader or solution. The eventual outside interference to sway the future of Ukraine will also be a huge issue. I guess the video is more exciting if you have personal stock in it, for me its pretty moving and albeit not as much as it was when they announced the ceasefire. So i can get why it would be a little "meh" to some. Namarrgon posted:It's not as if the choice is just between those two? They can elect other people? Mobby, the general feel here is that they are glad she is free, as she is a bit of a symbol, but most young people arent buying that she would be anything different. Something totally new needs to happen. People are saying to stay on Maidan and not leave, since thats where the power comes from, people not a politician. So far no one is really leading the pack in terms of being a leader of Ukraine. Elections are set for May, so I guess time will tell. Noctis Horrendae posted:Is it true that part of Ukraine has declared itself autonomous or is this some sort of bizarre mistranslation? Mobby was correct. However, there are some patriots that get upset if you use the "Kiev" spelling, but its a habit i guess i should try and break. There are a few pro-government protests happening in the East, especially in Crimea, but hopefully it stays small scale and non-violent. forkboy84 posted:I don't know, that ship is pretty nutty. Plus the private 18 hole golf course and an entire zoo. It's also worth considering that Yanukovych hasn't been in power nearly as long as Gaddafi was. There is going to be A LOT more revealed about the poo poo Yano stole/owned. The economy of Ukraine isn't 3rd world, it was just being bled dry by politicians and their cronies. Tankus fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Feb 23, 2014 |
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Feb 23, 2014 20:56
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The energy in Kiev is really amazing and I can say Im proud to be here. If anyone is interested, I wrote a little something about the situation here. A bit long winded, but please read. Why Ukraine? I am asked this question by nearly every person I encounter here. "Why you come here, so many people want to leave, and you come. You are crazy." While my sanity is not always sound, I felt like I had a fairly good response. I studied Soviet and Slavic history at my university and I simply fell in love. A country with such a cold and bleak past existing under autonomy so rarely that one might think it never happened. Polish, Mongolian, Hungarian, Ottoman, Belarusian, Slovakian, Moldovan, and of course Russian. All of these nations at some time or another had control over some part of Ukraine, the chief of which being Russian. Russians and Ukrainians are brothers in almost the truest sense of the word, but their relationship hasn't always been brotherly. Territory losses; bloody battles; brutal governments, cultural rifts, harsh weather, and question-of-self would seem to be enough to shatter a people... but it hasn't. The Slavic spirit is one of duality and ambiguity but indomitable nonetheless. The cold smile-less faces on the metro and general distrust of the unknown can be coldly off-putting, but one must dig deeper. The Slavic spirit is alive and well in the hearts of the common Ukrainian, and it is a thing to behold. The strength, power, unity, and perseverance inspires awe. The architecture, language, song, dance, poetry, and art are without question world class. I learned this many years ago in a classroom far removed from the people and counties I was studying. I encountered a few Ukrainians in my travels all of whom carried with them a warmth and spirit that both impressed and intrigued me. So I decided to come to Ukraine and try my luck, to see if I could find this elusive Slavic spirit - the soul of Ukraine. I found something special with a shockingly warm summer, beautiful women, kind and open men, surprising food, a stunningly sing-songy language, and a city with a deep and rich history buried, but shinning through, under all of the other influences. However, my search was still fruitless, I still didn't have a solid answer for: "Why, why Ukraine?" In the past months, culminating in this week, I have found it. Something concrete. Something solid. The dirty smiling faces of men building tents in the cold fueled by gruff and open machismo and the tender and motherly nature of women tending soup kitchens. The stalwart old women passing paving stones down a line to protect her homeland and the heaving shoulders of a burly man as he weeps, mourning the loss of one of Ukraine's native sons. The Ukrainian spirt is unbreakable and unbending, but also warm and human. There is something truly special happening here, and now the world can see it. So finally, I have something I can put my finger on and say: "This, this is why I am here. This is why I chose Ukraine." The soul and spirit of the people is truly a thing to behold and I hope they nurture it. The events of Maidan are offering them a chance at a new start, one in which their future is in their own hands. So now I think the question isn't "Why?" but "Where?" and the answer to that question rests in the heart of every Ukrainian.
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Feb 23, 2014 20:58
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Noctis Horrendae posted:Is it true that part of Ukraine has declared itself autonomous or is this some sort of bizarre mistranslation? Kyiv.
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Feb 24, 2014 01:58
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"'What if they come to us like they did [in other Ukrainian cities] and try to pull down our Lenin?" said Yulia Anisimova, a 30-year-old lawyer who was organizing women at Sunday's meeting into a medical brigade. "We hope that won't happen, but we want to be prepared." Echoing the Kremlin position, she said what happened last week in Kiev was a coup.'" Clearly the Crimeans have their priorities in place. http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304610404579401591776273578?mobile=y
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Feb 24, 2014 14:47
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quote:Mobby, the general feel here is that they are glad she is free, as she is a bit of a symbol, but most young people arent buying that she would be anything different. Something totally new needs to happen. People are saying to stay on Maidan and not leave, since thats where the power comes from, people not a politician. So far no one is really leading the pack in terms of being a leader of Ukraine. Elections are set for May, so I guess time will tell. Doesn't she have a past history of powermongering/abuse herself? How did she gain that martyr-touch? And excuse me if that is an ignorant question, I love the inside look you're giving us here
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Feb 25, 2014 12:44
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To find a politicians with clean hands in Ukraine would be quite the task. Ukrainians tell me: "Ukraine without corruption is like America without McDonalds" (which more or less also shows what they think Americas relationship to McDonalds is) I think that she just seemed more approachable and she was the sweetheart of the west. A pretty girl with a signature hairstyle is a bit more appealing than a fat grifter criminal. I think that mainly due to the fact that she was so obviously arrested and jailed for political reasons without a fair trail people got pissed off and made her a symbol, I think that even with a fair trail they would bring up some nasty dirt on her. I think its great that she has been freed and is a great victory for the people of Ukraine who support her, but she honestly needs to stay the gently caress out of higher level politics. Ukraine needs an absolute renaissance in its political system and I would even go so far as to say to change the character of Ukrainians themselves. There really arent ignorant questions, its a very complicated subject on a relatively undiscussed topic, so Im always glad to throw in my two cents.
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Feb 25, 2014 14:26
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Tankus posted:To find a politicians with clean hands in Ukraine would be quite the task. Ukrainians tell me: "Ukraine without corruption is like America without McDonalds" (which more or less also shows what they think Americas relationship to McDonalds is) I think that she just seemed more approachable and she was the sweetheart of the west. A pretty girl with a signature hairstyle is a bit more appealing than a fat grifter criminal. I think that mainly due to the fact that she was so obviously arrested and jailed for political reasons without a fair trail people got pissed off and made her a symbol, I think that even with a fair trail they would bring up some nasty dirt on her. I've got some pictures of the new government in Kyev. Give me a minute or two, I'll edit this post.      Ukraine is truly in good hands. I am sure that idiots who go around writing obscure white supremacist phrases in a foreign alphabet on ceremonial helmets are qualified to lead Kyev. The same goes for those who hang flags with Celtic sun crosses in town halls (how did the sun cross come to be associated with these dumbasses anyway?) Noctis Horrendae fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Feb 26, 2014 |
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Feb 25, 2014 22:16
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Noctis Horrendae posted:I've got some pictures of the new government in Kyev. Give me a minute or two, I'll edit this post. The "ceremonial helmet" is probably a motorcycle helmet in the outlying regions of Kiev or Kyiv, and we all know the sound decisions bikers make. And do you really think that guy is going to be the next leader of Ukraine? I dont get the point youre trying to make. There are radicals, bad eggs, and nut jobs in nearly every group but on the whole supporters of Maidan arent radicals, and even fewer (zero) are racially driven.
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Feb 26, 2014 10:15
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http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/163972/jews-in-maidan http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/20/fascism-russia-and-ukraine/?insrc=hpss There are anti-Semites and nationalist cranks on both sides of the Ukrainian issue. This is less avoidable than people would like to think, but that also doesn't mean they're dominant ideological forces. There's also a lot of professional troublemakers involved.
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Feb 26, 2014 11:00
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Snowdens Secret posted:http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/163972/jews-in-maidan The articles you posted state the contrary? In terms of anti-semitisim i have not seen, nor heard of, any attacks against Jews. I think the only people mentioning it are people trying to shoehorn it into the revolution. In terms of racism, the only group ive heard of being victimized so far have been the Tatars. In terms of what Snowdens secret said about the troublemakers, this is probably one of the biggest problems but is usually regulated by the more level headed protestors.
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Feb 26, 2014 12:21
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Tankus posted:The "ceremonial helmet" is probably a motorcycle helmet in the outlying regions of Kiev or Kyiv, and we all know the sound decisions bikers make. And do you really think that guy is going to be the next leader of Ukraine? I dont get the point youre trying to make. There are radicals, bad eggs, and nut jobs in nearly every group but on the whole supporters of Maidan arent radicals, and even fewer (zero) are racially driven. That post wasn't meant to be taken seriously, but since you're going that route, here we go.  from what I can see that's an old Allgemeine SS helmet, but regardless, he's clearly racially motivated - "88" is a shortening of "14/88" and "Viking" is a reference to a Waffen SS division. Looks nothing like a motorcycle helmet to me. There were more radicals in the riots than there were regular citizens..go look at the official numbers.e: Oops, I was horrifically wrong on the numbers: 400,000–800,000 protesters[49] 12,000 "self-defense sotnia"[50][51] It's still a fair amount of radicals, though.
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Feb 26, 2014 21:11
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Noctis Horrendae posted:That post wasn't meant to be taken seriously, but since you're going that route, here we go. you are right that the dude wrote a bunch of nazi poo poo on his motorcycle helmet, but that's definitely a motorcycle helmet, you can even see the visor tilted up and it looks nothing at all like an SS helmet still I dont get why you think a bunch of hardline nationalists and fascists showing up to a riot (which radicals are prone to do) means they'll be forming or dominating the new government
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Feb 26, 2014 21:40
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Earwicker posted:you are right that the dude wrote a bunch of nazi poo poo on his motorcycle helmet, but that's definitely a motorcycle helmet, you can even see the visor tilted up and it looks nothing at all like an SS helmet I think they'll have a minor part at least. Looking at it again I see the visor, but it definitely looks SS if you don't look closely.
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Feb 26, 2014 22:21
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Focusing on hate groups to discredit a government is great propaganda, but kind of cliche at this point.
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Feb 27, 2014 03:54
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I really have no idea what deep dark disgusting conspiracy fueled part of the internet you guys are getting your information from. This has been an absolute non-issue on Maidan, does it exist, sure, will it have a "minor part at least" in the government, absolutely not. Like I said, the only group that I have heard of being discriminated against during the recent protests have been the Crimean Tatars, and they have been discriminated against by the party of regions/Russian backed Anti-Maidan supporters. If any group is to be targeted unfairly by legislation levied by the new government, it might possibly be them.
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Feb 27, 2014 08:04
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I think you're taking my post a lot more negatively than I intended. The professional troublemakers seemed 100% hired by the Yanuk side to make the protesters look bad. Bottom-feeders will latch onto any movement, that doesn't mean they have anything genuinely to do with it, or that the greater movement ethics have anything to do with the bottom-feeder desires. Any shmuck can stand around a protest holding an offensive image and get someone to snap a quick picture, especially if it's a deliberate false-flag; it takes extensive self-policing on the side of the protesters to control it, and a level of organization these protests rarely have to spare. The only places I'm seeing allegations of widespread sympathies of fascism, ultranationalism, anti-Semitism etc on the Maidan side were coming from Russian press, with obvious motivations. There are obviously fascist, ultranationalist, anti-Semitic groups trying to participate, but fish pissing in the ocean don't make an ocean of piss. There are prominent Jewish groups on both pro-Maidan and pro-Russian sides (hey, we supported the Bolsheviks, we obviously make mistakes.) SS imagery is also popular with a certain (rather foolish) macho clique, see US Marine scout snipers being caught with it. It's also popular with bikers the world over who have no nationalist-socialist leanings whatsoever, but fetishize the skull motifs.
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Feb 27, 2014 11:03
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Noctis Horrendae posted:"88" is a shortening of "14/88" "88" stands for "HH" which is "Heil Hitler" (H is the 8th letter of the alphabet). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words Svoboda (one of the opposition parties) uses some Nazi symbols and for a while limited their membership to pure ethnic Ukrainians. They are the only non-EU member of Alliance of European National Movements (a group that includes Jobbik and British National Party. Snowdens Secret posted:The professional troublemakers seemed 100% hired by the Yanuk side to make the protesters look bad. 2012 Ukrainian elections quote:Even now, Svoboda's platform calls for passports to specify the holder's ethnicity, and for government positions to be distributed proportionally to ethnic groups, based on their representation in the population at large. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20824693 What do folks think about this: quote:One of the first issues the parliament tackled this weekend was that of the language, annulling a bill that provided for Russian to be used as a second official language in regions with large Russian-speaking populations. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/ukraine-crisis-western-nations-eu-russia That bill was one of the very controversial ones and it lead to fistfights in parliament.
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Feb 27, 2014 17:16
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OP, what do you think is happening in the Crimea right now?
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Feb 27, 2014 18:28
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Here is an article that sums up my feelings about people trying to add an anti-semetic twist to the revolution: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/26/bernard-henri-levy-ukraine-s-revolutionaries-are-not-fascists.html Hogge Wild posted:OP, what do you think is happening in the Crimea right now? Seems that they are occupying two government buildings and have hoisted the Russian flag. The new government in Ukraine has committed to non-violence and I hope it stays that way. I feel like this will be a time to bridge a long standing divide between eastern and western Ukraine and I hope that the Crimea decides to join with and add to the new government instead of rejecting it outright. Im really removed from that area so I cant really say whats happening there with any certainty, but I know for sure that people there are being fed a lot of miss information about whats happening in Kiev. The same sort of thing is sadly happening in Russia. On a personal note I went to Maidan today and there are TONS of flowers and memorials set up to those who lost their lives. But the overall attitude is really positive and people are coming together in a way that is refreshing and reassuring. Thanks for the lively and respectful debate guys, it seems like a lot of discourse on this website can turn into a poo poo storm but I appreciate everyone keeping it approprite.
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Feb 27, 2014 21:50
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