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Overview: The protests began in November with Yanakovich backing out of preliminary steps to join the EU. Protestors seized the center of the city and have been camping there ever since. The entirety of the occupation has been peaceful overall with a total death toll of 3 prior to February 18th. After the 18th however violence erupted after a clash outside of the parliament building. And then this happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d41cRqLkCk4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaPdRNgrdig Rampant beatings, shootings and bombings are occurring throughout the city, I can hear reports and explosions from my apartment. Recent videos seem to support the claims of snipers and new photos show riot police with automatic weapons firing at protestors in various cities in Ukraine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxkDiAcSF8 Why? While the initial outrage was over not taking steps to join the EU, it has since become a demand for the government to step down. Since the "Party of Regions" has been openly and severely corrupt since taking power, and bleeding the country for millions of dollars. Where? While most of the action is in the center of Kiev, the other regions are also protesting, resulting in the capture/destruction of government offices in other cities. Ukraine has a cultural divide between east and west, with the West being much closer to Europe and the East with Russia. This divide can be seen in terms of language, culture, and political leanings. Important terms: Berkut - the Ukrainian "riot" police. Titushki - Hired street thugs from gyms and local MMA/Fighting arenas given free license to threaten/intimidate/beat protestors. Reports of armed gangs killing and looting are becoming more common now. "Zek" Russian for convict, this term is usually applied to Yanakovich, as he spent time in prison in his youth. "Slava Ukraiena!" - Ukrainian for, "Glory to Ukraine" The response to this is: "Heroium Slava!" - Glory to the Heros "Slava Natsia!" - Glory to the Nation the response to this chant is: "Smert voroxam!" - Death to the enemies "Bando Het!" - Bandits get out, "het" is the Ukrainian term for something you would say to an unwanted dog. Keep informed: http://hromadske.tv/ This is a live feed of news from a Ukrainian source The BBC is also a good source, but not as up to date. Ignore her less than stellar English, this video shows in a nut shell whats happening and why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvds2AIiWLA I'm really not sure what else to add here, I don't know what you know and don't know, but I would love to answer any questions. The metro is shutdown, the roads into and out of Kiev are restricted, and work has been cancelled for the foreseeable future, so I should have some free time. Please keep this respectful and earnest and I will gladly answer your questions to the best of my ability. Updates: Videos from Ivano Frankivsk, Lviv, and Lutsk: http://dyvys.info/polityka/ivano-fr...oryt-video.html http://dyvys.info/polityka/u-lvovi-...tuna-video.html http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/02/19/7014697/ Call to end violence in Kiev from Parliament: http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1392931917 EU sanctions: http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1392924554 Peace in the streets, and the energy here is amazing! This video was made before the unfortunate events of the 18th, but it is really powerful and moving. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNq7hWpQ2KY This video was also made prior to the 18th, but has a "happy" vibe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B5AXBFeRLM Yanakovich's house, thanks jimma http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ize-Monaco.html Seems there is rumor that Maidan is fueled by anti-semites. Here is an article debunking such claims: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/26/bernard-henri-levy-ukraine-s-revolutionaries-are-not-fascists.html UPDATES: Seems Russia has declared war on Ukraine. They have allowed the movement of troops into Ukraine and are doing so with impunity. Here is the former president of Georgia talking about the similarities to the Georgian invasion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79g5NeurQBk Russian Choppers moving into Ukraine: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=287_1393605865 Things are soon to get much much worse here. This website dispels a lot of myths about what they're being told in Russia http://fakecontrol.org/ Another thing worth reading for you guys is a letter in the style of "A Modest Proposal" http://nest-expressed.com/open-letter-to-putin-from-a-concerned-ukrainian/ March 18th: According to the BBC: A Ukrainian soldier has been killed in an attack on a military base in Crimean capital #Simferopol, the defence ministry says. The BBC's Ben Brown, who's at the scene, says Russian troops are pushing press back and bursts of automatic fire can be heard. Tankus fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Mar 18, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 12:18
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utjkju posted:Is you protestor? eta ne vajno. I'm just an observer.
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Feb 20, 2014 14:41
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pigdog posted:Is the current turn of events surprising for you? Its utterly shocking. For a solid month the protests were peaceful and seemed as though they would fizzle out, that was until Tuesday. Corruption here isnt just a "thing" but its breaking this country. Billions have been embezzled from the people and instead of being spent on roads, hospitals, infrastructure, education, modernization, agriculture, it is being spent building a new oligarchy. So this isnt just bribery and corruption, but breaking the back of the Ukrainian people and robbing them of a future. I can honestly say the protests were peaceful. They had people heckling and causing a bit of property damage, but no one was hurt. If you went to the center of Maidan (where the revolution started) it was a self ordered and maintained city within a city. If anyone has ever played the game fallout, it was EXACTLY that, plus a concert and motivational speaker. The people dont want a new president, but a new government. To simply replace Yanakovich without a total restructuring of the government, would be wasted effort. Look at the orange revolution in Ukraine (2004). Georgia was different the Rose Revolution was peaceful due to an already extremely frustrated and weakened government. And the following protests never go close to 100k in supporters, and of the probably 7,000 - 20,000 who protested much fewer were willing to die to replace him. Georgia is a different theme all together, and support for Saakashvilli was stronger and the people were less divided than Ukraine.
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Feb 20, 2014 15:14
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anchorpunch posted:How would you describe the political leanings of the protesters? I hear about svoboda (?) and the "right sector , some show fascist/far-right symbols etc. What is your estimate about what percentage are adherents of right-wing extremist ideology? Is it there even a general nationalist/xenophobic consensus amongst protesters ? The protestors here arnet really politically motivated, just fed up, moreover it is impossible to categorize them do to an overall lack of solidarity (in terms of politics). There are the far right who are more prone to violence now that blood has been drawn, and there are senior citizens who just want a better future for their grandchildren. If in any of the videos you see a red and black flag, those people tend to be a bit more radical. Its the flag of Bandera, who lead a group of fighters during WW2 against both the Soviets and the Nazis to free Ukraine. Ukrainians are FAR less xenophobic than other CIS countries, but they are extremely patriotic, especially those from the west. Junior G-man posted:I know that the EU-deal was basically just the trigger for a much longer simmering conflict, but Ukrainians understand that trading with / even joining the EU isn't a direct line to jobs, lollipops and unicorns, right? They knew, and now it has nothing to do with the EU. But at the time they knew would lead to hardship and a decade of rebuilding to meet EU standards, and most educated people knew that. In terms of the truce i was shocked. I thought they would hold out until the weekend since there is a bit of an ebb and flow. But the metro is still shut down, they have closed roads into Kiev, closing gas stations, and using thugs to keep people in their homes and suppressed. So, I think they want to hit the protestors while they were still reeling and before international support mounted. Tankus fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 15:23
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Earwicker posted:I've been watching live streams of what's happening in the main square in Kiev. The Lviv region is the most patriotic in the whole of Ukraine. They have stormed government buildings and disposed of the government. This is also happening in other regions of Ukraine, most of them being in the West. Ivana-Frankivsk, and Lutz will probably be next. Junior G-man posted:Do you have faith in Klitschko and the other opposition leaders to bring about the kind of reforms people seem to want? I honestly cant say. I dont think that Klitchko has enough know-how to run the country, but hopefully he is intelligent/honest enough to request the help he would need to reform Ukraine. Thus far he is the most likely to succeed, Yanakovick if the revolution is successful. Also, him having lived in Germany for 7 years (i believe) and already having been famous for years should hopefully play to his favor. Additionally: here are some photos http://imgur.com/a/ayjcS
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Feb 20, 2014 16:20
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pigdog posted:With all the respect, the existence of such city within the city, where someone else has the power to decide who goes where and gets to do what, is by itself a challenge to the sovereignty of the government. It speaks volumes of the patience and tolerance of the government to allow such thing to persist -- for months. Perhaps the failure to address that led to blurring of limits of what's okay in a peaceful protest. Throwing rocks and molotov cocktails at the police would decidedly revoke peaceful protester privileges in most circles. I am talking about the time before the protestors started throwing rocks and molotovs, this is a step over the line. Having lived in Georgia during the protests, i would really love to see your your sources stating that 100,000 protesters were in Tbilisi, because I know its far from the truth. In terms of TV a lot of the new outlets are government owned, the one that reports the most "pro-protestor" info is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPXO9HPQnFs Its only in Ukrainian but, you can get the idea. I think that this source also adds a bit of hyperbole to the news, but its closer to the truth. So the media here can be as polarized as anywhere, probably more so
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Feb 20, 2014 17:24
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Earwicker posted:can you translate a bit of what is being shouted during the brawl happening in parliament right now? from the OP: Berkut - the Ukrainian "riot" police. Titushki - Hired street thugs from gyms and local MMA/Fighting arenas given free license to threaten/intimidate/beat protestors. Reports of armed gangs killing and looting are becoming more common now. "Zek" Russian for convict, this term is usually applied to Yanakovich, as he spent time in prison in his youth. "Slava Ukraiena!" - Ukrainian for, "Glory to Ukraine" The response to this is: "Heroium Slava!" - Glory to the Heros "Slava Natsia!" - Glory to the Nation the response to this chant is: "Smert voroxam!" - Death to the enemies "Bando Het!" - Bandits get out, "het" is the Ukrainian term for something you would say to an unwanted dog. Those are the "go-to" phrases. Im running around buying supplies (booze and potatoes) but ill be able to give you guys better info in an hour or two. Edit: oh god, listening to it now, i cant understand anything. Poor audio quality and questionable level of Ukrainian are to blame.
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Feb 20, 2014 17:32
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Tequila Sunrise posted:You said you are not participating, just observing, but you seem to be in favor of a complete restructuring of the government. Is there a particular reason you are not participating? I help by bringing material and foodstuffs to the lines, but i haven't since tuesday, and don't know when I will again. Im not participating because Im not Ukrainian and friends/coworkers have urged me not to go to the center. Non-vital functions have stopped. Schools and universities have closed and rich businessmen and politicians have been fleeing en masse. A university dormitory was sieged by "titushki" earlier and there are reports of them burning schools. A lot of Ukraine's income comes from IT and tech, so they can continue from home in most cases. I just came back from the store and it looks like its been ransacked. I think tomorrow the metro will be working again, which will help a lot with a return to normalcy but people are quite shaken. Personally, I work with several companies here, and all of them have gone on hiatus.
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Feb 20, 2014 20:32
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Earwicker posted:Remaining non-violent in the face of a force who is murdering you may be admirable and give some sense of "moral high ground" I guess but it seems ridiculous to me to demand it of anyone other than oneself. Since protesters were already being murdered before the current violence in the streets began I think it's understandable that they are no longer going the pacifist route. This is true and then some. When i went into Maidan before the 18th, they keep things very civil. Anyone causing trouble or advocating aggression was removed and internal "police" forces patrolled the occupied area. Alcohol was even forbidden.
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Feb 20, 2014 20:34
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mobby_6kl posted:Oh hey there, just saw this thread, thought I'd share what I posted in the D&D one: It was mainly on the 18th and 19th things were disrupted. Metro shutting down, plumes of black smoke, the wretched smell and burning tires, and stores being ransacked for bread and non perishables. Its only the road to parliament and pressing toward the Dniper that are incredibly dangerous. Tell your mom and her friends to avoid groups of people in Addidas track suits, other than that, they should be in good shape! Snowdens Secret posted:Hey OP I don't really have anything to add beyond thanks for posting and hoping y'all stay safe PLANES CURE TOWERS posted:Same here, thanks for the inside look. Stay safe man. Thanks guys, I just feel like spreading information is the best thing I can do. utjkju posted:Some people in Ukraine and Russia confuse democracy with anarchy It is a very Slavic trait
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Feb 21, 2014 10:36
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Great news: The metro is back running and after an all night debate parliament has voted on taking the Berkuit off the street, opening roads into Kiev, and banning the use of firearms. For full information you can read here: http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1392931917 Additionally, the EU has decided to take action with sanctions and condemnation: http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1392924554 The ruling party, "Party of Regions" are also fleeing or resigning. I haven't gone back to the center, but it seems that they will be stemming the violence. In other regions the assaults on party region headquarters is continuing. Prior to the 18th these buildings were occupied, but returned to the hands of politicians. Following the violence on the 18th, these buildings have been sacked and burned in a lot of cities, namely the west. In all of these videos you can hear the chats I mentioned in the OP, you can understand what they are saying. Videos from Ivano Frankivsk, Lviv, and Lutsk: http://dyvys.info/polityka/ivano-frankivske-sbu-horyt-video.html http://dyvys.info/polityka/u-lvovi-horyt-vijskova-chastuna-video.html http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/02/19/7014697/ The US embassy has also issued this warning for citizens in Ukraine: The Department of State warns U.S. citizens to defer all non-essential travel to Ukraine due to the ongoing political unrest and violent clashes between police and protestors. U.S. citizens in Ukraine, and those considering travel to Ukraine, should evaluate their personal security situation in light of the escalating violence, particularly in Kyiv. This replaces the Travel Alert for Ukraine dated February 18, 2014. On February 20, 2014, the Department of State authorized the departure of all family members of U.S. government personnel from Ukraine. While the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv’s Consular Section is open for public services, the Embassy’s ability to respond to emergencies involving U.S. citizens throughout Ukraine is limited. But so far, things seem REALLY positive. If you have any questions or news to add, please feel free! Tankus fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 10:49
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Namarrgon posted:Police were just following orders man. That will be a lovely defense in the trails that follow. To an extent I get that the Berkut were "doing their job" but to have snipers firing on unarmed citizens and medics, that takes a special level of brainwashing and brutality. Also, pigdog, I think you could benefit from doing a bit more research before condemning or exonerating people involved in something you have little idea about.
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Feb 21, 2014 10:58
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Nevermind
Tankus fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 12:46
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From Aljazeera [UPDATE]: Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich has announced an agreement to hold presidential elections early, form a national unity government and make constitutional changes reducing his powers. Read more: http://aje.me/1d9n3fI This will likely be turned down, since people have lost all faith in him and his party and want him and every vestige of his government gone.
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Feb 21, 2014 12:48
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GuavaMoment posted:I spent a week in Kiev last May, and I stayed in a hostel overlooking Maidan, so this whole thing is really blowing my mind. When I was there I read about the whole Yulia Tymoshenko thing, and I got the impression Yanukovich imprisoned her on false charges just to get her out of the way. Then someone in the D&D thread said Tymoshenko was "robbing Ukraine blind" and deserved to be jailed. So what's the real deal? Both are true. She was a political roadblock and was dealt with and she was stealing money from the country. What she didnt do however was steal so much it undermined the country itself nor did she change the constitution to grant herself more power. Yanakovich really is a truly impressive creature in terms of how openly he has been loving Ukraine. By the way, yesterday they repealed the laws that were keeping her in prison, so she might be free fairly soon Outside Dawg posted:I'm curious as to how much influence/effect the memory of the Holodomor had on the protests, if any. I havent seen or heard any mention of it. Deaths from collectivization under the Soviet regime are seen as a Russo/Soviet-Ukrainian issue, and on Maidan Russia is hardly ever mentioned.
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Feb 22, 2014 09:21
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Update: Fighting has stopped, guns have been removed, Berkut are being sent home, and the man hunt for snipers has started. things are looking up, and it is amazing. The energy here is palpable. Ill write more when i have time. Watch this video, its AMAZING, its in Russian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNq7hWpQ2KY
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Feb 22, 2014 09:24
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Lord Windy posted:I don't fully understand this but if both sides are terrible (Tymoshenko and Yanakovich) than what was this fight for? Its not a "sides" thing. They want a totally new government. Which is a bit of a downside and is going to lead to a lot of issues in the coming months and possibly years. There is no solid leader or solution. The eventual outside interference to sway the future of Ukraine will also be a huge issue. I guess the video is more exciting if you have personal stock in it, for me its pretty moving and albeit not as much as it was when they announced the ceasefire. So i can get why it would be a little "meh" to some. Namarrgon posted:It's not as if the choice is just between those two? They can elect other people? Mobby, the general feel here is that they are glad she is free, as she is a bit of a symbol, but most young people arent buying that she would be anything different. Something totally new needs to happen. People are saying to stay on Maidan and not leave, since thats where the power comes from, people not a politician. So far no one is really leading the pack in terms of being a leader of Ukraine. Elections are set for May, so I guess time will tell. Noctis Horrendae posted:Is it true that part of Ukraine has declared itself autonomous or is this some sort of bizarre mistranslation? Mobby was correct. However, there are some patriots that get upset if you use the "Kiev" spelling, but its a habit i guess i should try and break. There are a few pro-government protests happening in the East, especially in Crimea, but hopefully it stays small scale and non-violent. forkboy84 posted:I don't know, that ship is pretty nutty. Plus the private 18 hole golf course and an entire zoo. It's also worth considering that Yanukovych hasn't been in power nearly as long as Gaddafi was. There is going to be A LOT more revealed about the poo poo Yano stole/owned. The economy of Ukraine isn't 3rd world, it was just being bled dry by politicians and their cronies. Tankus fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Feb 23, 2014 |
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Feb 23, 2014 20:56
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The energy in Kiev is really amazing and I can say Im proud to be here. If anyone is interested, I wrote a little something about the situation here. A bit long winded, but please read. Why Ukraine? I am asked this question by nearly every person I encounter here. "Why you come here, so many people want to leave, and you come. You are crazy." While my sanity is not always sound, I felt like I had a fairly good response. I studied Soviet and Slavic history at my university and I simply fell in love. A country with such a cold and bleak past existing under autonomy so rarely that one might think it never happened. Polish, Mongolian, Hungarian, Ottoman, Belarusian, Slovakian, Moldovan, and of course Russian. All of these nations at some time or another had control over some part of Ukraine, the chief of which being Russian. Russians and Ukrainians are brothers in almost the truest sense of the word, but their relationship hasn't always been brotherly. Territory losses; bloody battles; brutal governments, cultural rifts, harsh weather, and question-of-self would seem to be enough to shatter a people... but it hasn't. The Slavic spirit is one of duality and ambiguity but indomitable nonetheless. The cold smile-less faces on the metro and general distrust of the unknown can be coldly off-putting, but one must dig deeper. The Slavic spirit is alive and well in the hearts of the common Ukrainian, and it is a thing to behold. The strength, power, unity, and perseverance inspires awe. The architecture, language, song, dance, poetry, and art are without question world class. I learned this many years ago in a classroom far removed from the people and counties I was studying. I encountered a few Ukrainians in my travels all of whom carried with them a warmth and spirit that both impressed and intrigued me. So I decided to come to Ukraine and try my luck, to see if I could find this elusive Slavic spirit - the soul of Ukraine. I found something special with a shockingly warm summer, beautiful women, kind and open men, surprising food, a stunningly sing-songy language, and a city with a deep and rich history buried, but shinning through, under all of the other influences. However, my search was still fruitless, I still didn't have a solid answer for: "Why, why Ukraine?" In the past months, culminating in this week, I have found it. Something concrete. Something solid. The dirty smiling faces of men building tents in the cold fueled by gruff and open machismo and the tender and motherly nature of women tending soup kitchens. The stalwart old women passing paving stones down a line to protect her homeland and the heaving shoulders of a burly man as he weeps, mourning the loss of one of Ukraine's native sons. The Ukrainian spirt is unbreakable and unbending, but also warm and human. There is something truly special happening here, and now the world can see it. So finally, I have something I can put my finger on and say: "This, this is why I am here. This is why I chose Ukraine." The soul and spirit of the people is truly a thing to behold and I hope they nurture it. The events of Maidan are offering them a chance at a new start, one in which their future is in their own hands. So now I think the question isn't "Why?" but "Where?" and the answer to that question rests in the heart of every Ukrainian.
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Feb 23, 2014 20:58
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To find a politicians with clean hands in Ukraine would be quite the task. Ukrainians tell me: "Ukraine without corruption is like America without McDonalds" (which more or less also shows what they think Americas relationship to McDonalds is) I think that she just seemed more approachable and she was the sweetheart of the west. A pretty girl with a signature hairstyle is a bit more appealing than a fat grifter criminal. I think that mainly due to the fact that she was so obviously arrested and jailed for political reasons without a fair trail people got pissed off and made her a symbol, I think that even with a fair trail they would bring up some nasty dirt on her. I think its great that she has been freed and is a great victory for the people of Ukraine who support her, but she honestly needs to stay the gently caress out of higher level politics. Ukraine needs an absolute renaissance in its political system and I would even go so far as to say to change the character of Ukrainians themselves. There really arent ignorant questions, its a very complicated subject on a relatively undiscussed topic, so Im always glad to throw in my two cents.
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Feb 25, 2014 14:26
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Noctis Horrendae posted:I've got some pictures of the new government in Kyev. Give me a minute or two, I'll edit this post. The "ceremonial helmet" is probably a motorcycle helmet in the outlying regions of Kiev or Kyiv, and we all know the sound decisions bikers make. And do you really think that guy is going to be the next leader of Ukraine? I dont get the point youre trying to make. There are radicals, bad eggs, and nut jobs in nearly every group but on the whole supporters of Maidan arent radicals, and even fewer (zero) are racially driven.
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Feb 26, 2014 10:15
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Snowdens Secret posted:http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/163972/jews-in-maidan The articles you posted state the contrary? In terms of anti-semitisim i have not seen, nor heard of, any attacks against Jews. I think the only people mentioning it are people trying to shoehorn it into the revolution. In terms of racism, the only group ive heard of being victimized so far have been the Tatars. In terms of what Snowdens secret said about the troublemakers, this is probably one of the biggest problems but is usually regulated by the more level headed protestors.
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Feb 26, 2014 12:21
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I really have no idea what deep dark disgusting conspiracy fueled part of the internet you guys are getting your information from. This has been an absolute non-issue on Maidan, does it exist, sure, will it have a "minor part at least" in the government, absolutely not. Like I said, the only group that I have heard of being discriminated against during the recent protests have been the Crimean Tatars, and they have been discriminated against by the party of regions/Russian backed Anti-Maidan supporters. If any group is to be targeted unfairly by legislation levied by the new government, it might possibly be them.
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Feb 27, 2014 08:04
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Here is an article that sums up my feelings about people trying to add an anti-semetic twist to the revolution: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/26/bernard-henri-levy-ukraine-s-revolutionaries-are-not-fascists.html Hogge Wild posted:OP, what do you think is happening in the Crimea right now? Seems that they are occupying two government buildings and have hoisted the Russian flag. The new government in Ukraine has committed to non-violence and I hope it stays that way. I feel like this will be a time to bridge a long standing divide between eastern and western Ukraine and I hope that the Crimea decides to join with and add to the new government instead of rejecting it outright. Im really removed from that area so I cant really say whats happening there with any certainty, but I know for sure that people there are being fed a lot of miss information about whats happening in Kiev. The same sort of thing is sadly happening in Russia. On a personal note I went to Maidan today and there are TONS of flowers and memorials set up to those who lost their lives. But the overall attitude is really positive and people are coming together in a way that is refreshing and reassuring. Thanks for the lively and respectful debate guys, it seems like a lot of discourse on this website can turn into a poo poo storm but I appreciate everyone keeping it approprite.
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Feb 27, 2014 21:50
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Snowdens Secret posted:Not to be a D&D-style pedant, but you can be a fascist and not be an anti-Semite, and you can certainly be an anti-Semite and not be fascist. Similarly while fascism generally includes a strong nationalist bent, you can be a nationalist and not be a fascist at all. Articles like that Daily Beast one that use the terms interchangeably just come off as confused. The article, and the purpose for my posting it, was to directly address claims of antisemitism. While there have been some groups of idiots wih various agendas, i have never heard a single word of anti-semitism. Also, when the term fascist is used in this part of the world outside of academic circles it almost exclusively refers to Nazi Germany. Which i know is far from the most accurate usage
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Feb 27, 2014 23:17
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Instead of talking about a hate spewing ultra-nationalist minority and the absolutely non-existent Nazi presence in Kiev, how about we talk about things that actually matter. Hot topics in Ukraine: The fact that the Ukrainian economy is against the ropes and is in dire need of assistance. Banks are defaulting and foreign currency, namely dollars and euros, are sky rocking in price while the grivna plummets. Some banks are only allowing withdrawals of 100 grn per day. Economics has never been a super strong point for me, but with Russia freezing bailouts to Ukraine Im curious as to if the Eu will help out, possibly once the region is a bit more stabilized. If any of you guys have any insight I would love to hear it. Continued unrest in the Crimea. The Russian media is really playing this up as they would love to have this chunk of land back. I don't live in this area but from reports it seems to be calm for the most part. Anyone have any more primary information from the area? Russian Black Sea fleet movement around The Crimea. US and EU warnings to Russia about not intervening What will Putin do in the coming weeks to sway Ukraine to his favor? There are many other, much more important things happening here that affect people to a much higher degree than some dude in a motorcycle helmet which most Ukrainians would have no idea what it means, so please drop it.
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Feb 28, 2014 08:57
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Tequila Sunrise posted:I know that Crimea is important to Russia because it gives them access to the Black Sea, how big of a factor do you think that is? They obviously have other naval access points, and Crimea is only like the 4th largest, but do you think that Russia could see it as a military threat if losing it became a real possibility? Well the Crimean was given to the Ukrainian SSR in the 50s. I really cant see any turn of events that would result in Russia losing influence over the Crimea. The black sea fleet is station in Sevastopol which is now a city really championing secession. Russia has always kicked itself for handing over the Crimea and would love the chance to have it back. So the influence, history, and military presence there, not to mention that the vast majority of people in the Crimea are ethnically Russian, means that Ukraine losing the Crimea is much more likely than Russia losing its bases there.
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Feb 28, 2014 09:45
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Morning Bell posted:What's the general sentiment in Kiev, amongst the protesters, about the possibility of Crimean secession? I'm going to ask around a bit more because I would also like to know. But it seems like people feel like it is the meddling of Russia and they're a bit pissed that they have no patriotism for Ukraine. Ukrainian control in the area is already weak, hopefully the forming government in Kiev extends an offering to them in order to calm things down a bit. The protestors are a bit "how loving dare they!" that they want to succeed, but its not too much different from Lviv threatening the same thing a few weeks ago. As long as violence is avoiding I think things will smooth over there. Hopefully.
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Feb 28, 2014 10:08
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Seems like Russians are trying to provoke some sort of response to justify their expansion into Ukraine. Ukraine has already called on a treaty signed in 1994 when they surrendered their nuclear stockpile in exchange for international protection. People in Kiev are a bit on edge about the situation but no one seems to be pissed, just nervous. Hopefully no one will play the fool and start something with the Russians. I imagine if after enough time the Russians will run out of excuses to be in The Crimea and pullout, but odds are they're going to do absolutely everything they can to annex Crimea. And, Smerdyakov, I agree that the law about forcing Ukrainian on the populace is silly. I understand the desire to want to assert yourself culturally, but there are a lot of people in Ukraine who speak Russian nearly exclusively in Ukraine, I personally would feel discriminated against if I were one of them, even if i was opposed to russian politics. Tankus fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Mar 1, 2014 |
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Mar 1, 2014 12:45
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The situation here is just absolutely hosed. I am totally shocked. The reports coming in from the Crimea are also grim. Denying entry to the Crimea to Ukrainian citizens, comandeering journalists equipment. Troop placement and helicopters coming in. Tanks rolling into Ukraine. Now Russia has declaired open season on Ukraine. The rest of the world just sits on its hands "tut-tut-tutting" The people here are disgusted and confused. I for one find it frightening that we live in a time where Europe would let this happen on its doorstep. Russian choppers: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=287_1393605865 Former Georgian president talking about the Ukrainian invasion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79g5NeurQBk Tankus fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Mar 1, 2014 |
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Mar 1, 2014 17:32
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Been out of it for a while on personal business. I have also been talking to friends in Russia (typically Russians who have never left the country) who feed into everything they are told. Its a little frustrating to talk to people without critical thinking capabilities. There is a website set up to counter the massive wave of propaganda coming from the Russian media. http://fakecontrol.org/ This website dispels a lot of myths about what they're being told in Russia. Because while around 30% of people in Crimea want to join Russia (which is a large amount) there are even more opposed. Namely the Tatars and ethnic Ukrainians there, of where there are large amounts. This is a super complicated issue that needed to be dealt with politically instead of militarily and this is only going to hurt Russia/Putin in the long run. Another thing worth reading for you guys is a letter in the style of "A Modest Proposal" http://nest-expressed.com/open-letter-to-putin-from-a-concerned-ukrainian/ I know most of you wont change your minds, even when presented with evidence, but please, don't get your information from a single source and don't believe everything you hear. This also applies to media outlets from outside the Russian speaking world.
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Mar 9, 2014 10:11
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jimma posted:Welcome back, Tankus! The plan is to vote on the 16th to see the direction of things. I have tatar friends in the Crimea and they're really fearful of losing everything they have their whole lives for. After the deportations/purges under Stalin, the area has seen a rebounding of tatars, its actually the only ethnic group that is growing in strength. Its totally under represented in the press and they wont take this lying down. One of my good friends posted this as a status: It is so sad seeing my parents packing documents and getting ready to leave if they have to. My dad says: "Photograph everything in the house, someday you can claim that it was ours" Im a bit behind in terms of the news, i have a lot to catch up on, but some of the things posted in this thread are disheartening. On a positive note, today was the 200th birthday of Ukraine's Shakespeare, Taras Shevchenko. The weather and atmosphere in Kiev was really great. Music, poetry and traditional dresses in the streets of Kiev is really refreshing. I suggest you guys check out his wiki and some of his work, he's probably the most revered Ukrainian in history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taras_Shevchenko Tankus fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Mar 9, 2014 |
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Mar 9, 2014 21:33
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utjkju posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=256py8v6ZW4 - Here Tatars from Crimea told them opinion. Do you think that they say lies? The Orange revolution wasn't beneficial to almost anyone because it just replaced the people involved without a complete restructuring. Alternatively, I also didn't hear any praise and joy that the Russian liberators are there to save them. But I can totally see why they have little faith in the current revolution helping out. Its totally undecided as to where things are going now but hopefully stability can return and progress can be made. On a side note, buckwheat went up in price 10 fold? This must have been temporary since its only 60 cents a kilo.
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Mar 10, 2014 10:10
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utjkju posted:Do you recognize the fact: there are people from Ukraina, who think that the New Government in Kiev is not legal, but these people can not vote? Its an interim-government, actual elections will be held at the end of May.
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Mar 10, 2014 11:00
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utjkju posted:But who chose the interim-government? And why people from Crimea, Sevastopol, Donetsk, Kharkov can not choose other interim-government, if they did not recognize the interim-government in Kiev? Ukraine chose the interim government, It is made up of legitimately elected parliamentary officials from all regions of Ukraine. When Yano fled Ukraine in a panic, a lot of his party did as well. The interim-government is far from what Ukraine needs, but it is the only legitimate ruling body the country has at the moment. All positions of power were filled by those (chosen from the ELECTED parliament) who pledged to step down once actual elections were held. Any other "government" in Ukraine is false and non representative of the people, even in western regions like Lviv.
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Mar 10, 2014 12:13
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Thrasophius posted:So as a Ukrainian how do you feel about the referendum of Crimea to join Russia? Also if Crimea does join Russia what sort of impact would that have on Ukraine? I'm not Ukrainian, just a supporter of sorts. Crimea joining Russia will be mutually harmful to both countries. Russia will inherit archaic industry in desperate need of revamping and a peninsula that is reliant on Ukraine for drat near everything: food, water, electricity, goods. So this means that Russia would have to provide this stuff, which it cant at least until better infrastructure is built. Crimea only has saving grace in terms of its economy and thats tourism. With Russia taking control and its bullshit and expensive visa policies that will hamper/kill tourism in the region. Also, who wants to go to sunny Russian occupied beaches when you can fly to Turkey for a cheaper vacation. Or go to Batumi which is trying so drat hard to be the next "go-to" place on The Black Sea. Reservations are down 90% in terms of what they were two years ago and people that are invested in this are getting nervous. Also Ukrainians own property, houses, and have family there, so this would impact their lives negatively. Ukrainians see this as Russia trying to make a land-grab in Ukraine and take landholdings. They think Russia wont stop at The Crimea (which it wont) and will try to reclaim the whole of Eastern Ukraine eventually. Over the weekend Russian troops, and make no mistake they are Russian, have seized another airport and mined the land connecting Crimea to Ukraine. However, these reports come from Ukrainian sources so I cant say with total confidence its true. The Ruble is taking a hit now over the situation and the Grivna is desperately trying to stabilize after weeks of loses. Losing the Crimea will do harm to both of these currencies. So, overall, this whole situation is loving both countries just because Russia cant bare the idea of losing "Little Russia" to the big bad "west". If the west really is so detrimental to CIS countries they should let Ukraine join NATO/EU whatever flounder and fail, so they could say "I told you so" and welcome a shamed Ukraine back into their loving arms.
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Mar 10, 2014 12:52
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Ensign Expendable posted:Is this "revolution" restructuring anything? More power is in the hands of the oligarchs than ever. How is that supposed to benefit the common man, especially after all the austerity measures proposed in order to qualify for European credit? The restructuring has only just begun with the party of regions fleeing the country. The whole system here is broken and corrupt so over the next few months the world will be able to see if this happens. Everyone who has since assumed a position of power is afraid of syphoning money or accepting bribes because the Ukrainian people are being more demanding (and rightfully so) than they were in 2004. Russia's presence in the area is making an already tense and complicated problem worse by being so aggressive with their "self defense regiments" For people to demand that a broken and ineffective system to be fixed overnight WHILE threatening a country with a military presence is just counterintuitive.
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Mar 10, 2014 20:51
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jimma posted:I don't, but I hear that every time there's been a revolution there, the resulting interim governments have failed to validate their existence by holding same-day national elections. Therefore the only legitimate government of Russia consists of the direct descendants of Ivan the Terrible, who should be located and return to Moscow at once to claim their birthright. Mightypeon made a ton of great points. But ill give you my two cents. Klitchko has name recognition and is the most common name in terms of what Maidan (and the rest of the world) has heard. His roots lie in Eastern Ukraine and speaks Ukrainian like an Eastern Ukrainian, BUT he speaks Ukrainian none the less. He also speak an intermediate level of German too. He has a vast edge over Turchynov since a lot of people just see him as Tymoshenko's lapdog and most people would prefer for her to be out of politics. I agree that she should be, for the system to change to reintroduce an old element wouldn't really work. But, overall I think Klitchko's chances of winning are slim since people see him more as a figure head than as a political leader. I think he is currently second in the poles but is maintaining popularity, however a situation so dynamic as this means that anything is possible. Maybe his ties with Germany will be too much to counter balance his ties to Eastern Ukraine. Maybe he's been punched in the head one too many times... or not enough? Its really too soon to call anything a sure thing, and while he is a strong candidate I think he is not what Ukraine needs. However name recognition alone can do a lot for votes, if Bush can be elected twice in the US why cant a world champ boxed be elected to Ukraine? I just hope that if he wins he realizes his own weaknesses and inexperience and seeks the help and support Ukraine needs to move forward.
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Mar 10, 2014 21:11
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jimma posted:Oh, okay -- I was looking at the pre-revolution poll results in Wikipedia, which showed Klitchko as the most popular opposition leader -- but the post-revolution polls show Poroshenko ahead. Do you have a preferred candidate? There are a few politicians in the Rada that have impressed me with their chutzpah so far, but they're probably too "Ukrainian" to be elected considering the need to appease the old Soviet blood and masses who have loyalty to Russia. Whoever it is needs to be young and fairly inexperienced in terms of Ukrainian politics, or if so, a supreme underdog. Electing Captain Chocolate or Milhouse to office would end poorly, but Klitchko MIGHT be able to pull it off if, like i said, he is self-aware enough to know he needs a lot of guidance and help. Current situation as it is, none of the politicians I like stand a chance to become the next president of Ukraine, and its all together likely they are totally disinterested in the position.
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Mar 10, 2014 23:02
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Ensign Expendable posted:Some armed men took power in Crimea. Some armed men took power in Kiev. Is one of these groups automatically more legitimate than the other? Armed men with military and financial backing from another country are currently in Crimea occupying military installations, capturing airports, and controlling who comes into and out of certain cities in Crimea. Kiev is "armed" is it? What APCs, helicopters, and automatic weapons did they "arm" themselves with? If Crimea wants to join Russia, its their prerogative, but forcing your military into a foreign country under false pretense is wrong, and the whole world knows it and has sadly seen how these things will play out.
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Mar 11, 2014 14:17
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Ensign Expendable posted:You don't believe that Crimea has an ad-hoc self defense force too? Is everyone in camouflage in Crimea a Russian soldier to you? how can you honestly say that APCs and choppers are "ad-hoc" for a self defense force? Are you really so delusional? Of course everyone in camo isn't part of this group, and I fully understand that people there want to organize for whatever purpose. But I don't understand how you can group in the Russian occupation forces with them. Civilians just don't have access to the type of hardware present in Crimea. Kiev is "pretty well armed" with what? There must be tons of pictures of these guerrilla fighters armed with stolen automatic weapons since ANYONE can go to Maidan and photograph/document anything they want.
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Mar 11, 2014 15:05
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