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I've been watching live streams of what's happening in the main square in Kiev. What is happening in other places? I read that Lviv declared independence... does that mean just the city of Lviv itself or that general region? What about in other parts of the country? Are there any protests in the eastern side? Earwicker fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 16:10
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pigdog posted:Throwing rocks and molotov cocktails at the police would decidedly revoke peaceful protester privileges in most circles. Protesters were being abducted and tortured/murdered by the police and their hired thugs before the current rock and molotov cocktail throwing began, it's not like the recent violence happened out of the blue or that Yanukovich was just letting the protestors "die of boredom"
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Feb 20, 2014 16:59
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That's some marvelous goalpost shifting.
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Feb 20, 2014 17:06
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can you translate a bit of what is being shouted during the brawl happening in parliament right now?
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Feb 20, 2014 17:28
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pigdog posted:Despite an atmosphere ripe for provocations, the Baltic countries gained independence from USSR without any violence, or territorial division like in Moldova. From the very article you linked quote:The Soviet military responded harshly. On January 13, 1991, fourteen non-violent protesters in Vilnius died and hundreds were injured defending the Vilnius Television Tower and the Parliament from Soviet assault troops and tanks. Lithuanians referred to the event as Bloody Sunday. The discipline and courage of its citizens - linking arms and singing in the face of tanks and armour-piercing bullets - avoided a much greater loss of life and showed the world that Lithuania's citizens were prepared to defend national independence.[citation needed]
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Feb 20, 2014 18:06
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Remaining non-violent in the face of a force who is murdering you may be admirable and give some sense of "moral high ground" I guess but it seems ridiculous to me to demand it of anyone other than oneself. Since protesters were already being murdered before the current violence in the streets began I think it's understandable that they are no longer going the pacifist route.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:13
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gfanikf posted:So where have protestors been getting guns from? I mean I know there is a ton of old surplus floating around the Ukraine, but I'm wondering if its new stuff people are getting or just things hidden that people have kept around for a long time. well they are probably just using the ones that were being used to prop up windows or as paperweights
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Feb 21, 2014 05:27
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Noctis Horrendae posted:That post wasn't meant to be taken seriously, but since you're going that route, here we go. you are right that the dude wrote a bunch of nazi poo poo on his motorcycle helmet, but that's definitely a motorcycle helmet, you can even see the visor tilted up and it looks nothing at all like an SS helmet still I dont get why you think a bunch of hardline nationalists and fascists showing up to a riot (which radicals are prone to do) means they'll be forming or dominating the new government
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Feb 26, 2014 21:40
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from what I can see that's an old Allgemeine SS helmet, but regardless, he's clearly racially motivated - "88" is a shortening of "14/88" and "Viking" is a reference to a Waffen SS division. Looks nothing like a motorcycle helmet to me. There were more radicals in the riots than there were regular citizens..go look at the official numbers.
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Oracle posted:'Could' meaning 'has the resources' or could meaning 'physically possible?' Because its a midterm election year in the U.S. and Congress is up, and the Republicans (which control the House, which controls the purse strings) aren't going to give anyone jack poo poo if they can possibly avoid it (except of course the military whether they want it or not) so they can come across as 'fiscally responsible/conservative/loving Obama' to the voters back home. Republicans only worry about being "fiscally reponsible/conservative" when it comes to social services, welfare, health, or arts and culture. Much of their base is still stuck in the Cold War and so they more than happy to spend money on anything that will piss off the Russians. It's why Mitt Romney seemingly-randomly called out Russia as the US's "number one foe" during the 2012 campaigns. Helping out a "fledgling democracy" that we can bring under the NATO fold and take away what has long been considered a Russian "possession" would actually sound good to a lot of Republican voters. the fact that the Ukrainian opposition has been frequently framed as "far right" will also help. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Feb 28, 2014 |
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Feb 28, 2014 17:55
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Comparing the situation to what Germany did in the 30's doesn't really make sense considering the history of Crimea and Russia. That doesn't mean Putin's invasion is justified and yeah he's certainly an rear end in a top hat but implying that he's going to start some kind of genocidal purge in Ukraine is rather a huge stretch.
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Mar 7, 2014 04:47
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RFC2324 posted:Well, land grabs under the excuse of protecting ethic {Germans/Russians}, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Early_diplomatic_successes see the section about, you guessed it, Austria and Czechoslovakia, specifically the Sudetenland. Pretty much every major nation has ethnic genocide in it's history, this does not mean every action they commit is an imminent genocidal purge. This is the same logic as saying the US intervention in Libya was an attempt to eradicate the population of Berbers and Arabs living there and occupy their land because thats what we did to Native Americans. And yes, the Germans used ethnic Germans in the Sudetenland as an excuse, but once again the situations are not the same. The relationship between the Sudetenland and Germany is not at all the same as the relationship between Crimea and Russia, and the new Ukrainian government really did pass laws that discriminated against ethnic Russians in Ukraine. The Sudetenland was never part of Germany, Crimea was part of Russia for several hundred years up until just a few decades ago, and the only reason it became a part of Ukraine at all was basically because Kruschev was Ukrainian. utjkju posted:There was not occupation. So who are all the thousands of soldiers that surrounded Ukrainian bases? Do you really believe Putin that there was "no invasion" in spite of a rather massive amount of photographic and video evidence of the invasion happening? Earwicker fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Mar 7, 2014 |
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Mar 7, 2014 05:00
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RFC2324 posted:The literal exact argument in the US context would be saying that Texas had to do all legal business in Spanish as well as English, since Texas was, at one time, part of Mexico I'm not sure why you find that so absurd - if you replace Texas with New Mexico, that is the case. Because of the history of the state and the fact that the population includes a large number of Spanish speakers, Spanish has official status along with English. If a new government took power and then declared that English was the only official language, you can certainly bet that a lot of people would take that as discrimination against the Spanish speakers- and given the history of language politics in the US they'd probably be right. Also, the reason that areas become part of a country kind of matters. Texas became independent from Mexico in a war. Crimea was given to Ukraine by the Soviet government, because the Soviet premier was himself Ukrainian, and somehow I suspect the people who actually lived in Crimea at the time were not consulted on that. Now, I don't think Russia has any right to just take Crimea. But I do think if the Crimean inhabitants vote to rejoin Russa, then they have a right to do so. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Mar 7, 2014 |
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Mar 7, 2014 05:19
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RFC2324 posted:Having spent half my life in New Mexico, I can assure you that Spanish is not a legal language. Most of the population speaks it, but that doesn't mean legal business is conducted in it, or that street signs are printed in it(that last is kind of arguable, since most of the street names are in fact Spanish words or peoples names). Yeah, I misrememberd, it's actually Hawaii that has a non-English official language (Hawaiian). However in New Mexico, the language does have some semi-official status including legal use: quote:With regards to the judiciary, witnesses have the right to testify in either of the two languages, and monolingual speakers of Spanish have the same right to be considered for jury-duty as do speakers of English.[51][54] In public education, the state has the constitutional obligation to provide for bilingual education and Spanish-speaking instructors in school districts where the majority of students are hispanophone.[51] Do you think if new legislation were passed by a new government saying that all education and legal testimony had to be in English, this wouldn't be discrimination against Spanish speakers?
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Mar 7, 2014 05:27
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Ensign Expendable posted:But is there a party currently in power in the US that is pushing for racial purity in government, education, etc? Because Svoboda is (ironically), and boy would that not fly in a modern democracy. Not in the US but such parties certainly exist in modern democracies. Jobbik, Front National, etc. In the US people with such agendas exist but are more likely to simply run in one of the two major parties because no other party can be viable in the US.
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Mar 7, 2014 05:30
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utjkju posted:All time in Crimea there are Russian troops: last year, three years ago... There's been a Russian base there yes, but there haven't been new loads of Russian soldiers surrounding the Ukrainian bases on the peninsula and shutting down airports, which is what happened last week.
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Mar 7, 2014 05:37
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RFC2324 posted:They did this while condemning the US for similar actions around the world, yet claim to be totally different, we are not imperialist like those darn Americans, nope, not us. Well it's kind of a two way street. Russia is hypocritical for taking this kind of action while condemning the US for our interference and our invasions... and the US is hypocritical for condemning Russia for this when we have so many interferences and invasions in our very recent history. People here point out that utjkju swallows the talking points of the Russian media, but the other side is more or less reflecting what we see in western media, which is also very biased. There's no real "neutral" party or source of information here.
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Mar 7, 2014 17:11
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The poll in question is from the Kyiv Post. http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/more-ukrainians-disapprove-of-euromaidan-protests-than-approve-of-it-poll-336461.html This does not of course mean in and of itself that it's trustworthy, the article doesn't go into much detail about the poll's methodology and of course it could certainly have been done in a manipulative or biased way. But it's obviously not something someone just made up on Wikipedia.
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Mar 7, 2014 18:30
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utjkju posted:Do you want to tell that people from Maidan is politicans? Maidan chose the interim government. This is not true. The interim government is a lot of the same members of parliament that were there before Yanukovich fled, it's not some wholly "new government" made up only by people from Kiev, nor is it made up of people from Maiden; even members of Yanukovich's own party voted him out of power after he fled. In fact some people in Maiden currently seem upset because they don't feel represented by the interim government. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Mar 10, 2014 |
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Mar 10, 2014 13:30
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Namarrgon posted:Maidan has ministers, I'm pretty sure that makes a government. It makes a small part of a government, it doesn't mean Maiden unilaterally formed the interim government. The interim government also contains career politicians who have nothing to do with Maiden.
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Mar 10, 2014 14:12
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Thrasophius posted:Does no-one else feel this is reminiscent of world war 2? No, you are the only one to come up with this comparison that has been trotted around all over the media for the last two weeks and even discussed at length in this thread. And again, it's a rather different situation. The Sudetenland was never part of the country of Germany. Crimea was a part of the country of Russia, and the only reason it became part of Ukraine is because the Soviet premier (who happened to be Ukrainian himself) gave it away as a symbolic gesture. That doesn't mean a Russian takeover is legal or good but it's really not the same thing as Germany trying to take over adjacent countries. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Mar 11, 2014 |
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Mar 11, 2014 17:20
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At this point I think the best option is to return the Crimea to its rightful owners, the Khazars.
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Mar 13, 2014 02:09
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Yeah, the Yugoslav breakup did not involve any regions inhabited by people who identify as Russians or which were formerly part of Russia. Serbia is a traditional Russian ally but it's not at all the same relationship as with a region like Crimea. Also Yugoslavia as a country had a rather short history and its national identity really started to fall apart with the death of Tito, and was probably always weaker than the identities as Croatians, Serbians, Slovenes, etc. but was held together by the strength of his personality and their rather unique geopolitical position in relation to the rest of the Communist world. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 19:33
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Mightypeon posted:Concerning Tito, he first united Yugoslavia against Hitler, and then later against Stalin. I dont think anyone could unite these nations in the absence of a huge threatening foe. Stalin died in the early 1950's, Tito didn't die until 1980 and it was a few years after that things really started to fall apart.
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Mar 16, 2014 21:31
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Stay safe dude!
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Mar 18, 2014 17:46
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Maybe I'm missing something but if Russia isn't supporting the separatists then why are the seperatists led by people like Igor Girkin and Alexander Borodai, who are Russian citizens from Moscow? Or did the western media invent these people?
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Aug 2, 2014 00:51
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utjkju posted:Girkin, Boroday, Strelkov are real people. I wrote in this thread about connection between people from Russia and people from East Ukraina. Borodai is not just a random militia member, he's the prime minister of the declared independent state of Donetsk. Girkin is also in a leadership position, and on top of that he has admitted to having been an FSB officer for almost 20 years and retired very recently. I'm not familiar with Boykov, but if someone with a 20 year career in the Australian intelligence service suddenly popped up as a military leader or prime minister in a secessionist part of Ukraine, yes I think it would be reasonable to suspect Australia of supporting them. edit: I found the story on Boykov and he's a random Australian of Cossack descent who went over there to be a soldier, and he has no ties to Australia's government. That's not exactly comparable to becoming the prime minister of a seceding republic or a military commander of one of the main separatist factions, which is what Borodai and Girkin are doing. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Aug 2, 2014 |
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Aug 2, 2014 07:48
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utjkju posted:In Russia there are many people who work in FSB. It is normal. So are you telling me that, if an American citizen showed up as the military leader of a group of separatist rebels in, say, Panama and this American had been a CIA agent for 20 years, you wouldn't suspect the US of involvement? After all, lots of people work for the CIA and most of them don't personally know Obama. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Aug 2, 2014 |
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Aug 2, 2014 16:15
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utjkju posted:Yes. I have friends of people from FSB. Is i agent of Putin? Or Are my friends agent of Putin?) If your friends are working for the FSB then yes they are agents of the Russian state, just like someone who works for the CIA is an agent of the American state. If someone who works for an intelligence agency shows up leading a group of rebels in a foreign country, it is reasonable to suspect that the government of their nation of origin and/or its intelligence agencies may be involved in that rebellion. Again I am not talking about random low level soldiers, I'm talking about senior leadership.
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Aug 2, 2014 19:55
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utjkju posted:You know what is FSB? FSB - The federal service of safety. Yes, exactly. Which means they are quite clearly connected with the Russian government. No it doesn't mean they are all personal buddies with Putin, but it does generally mean that when a Russian citizen with a 20 year career in Russia's security agency shows up leading a group of Pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine, it's entirely reasonable to suspect Russian involvement. Especially since not only him, but also the prime minister of the self-declared independent Donetsk region is also a Russian citizen from Moscow. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Aug 2, 2014 |
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Aug 2, 2014 21:37
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utjkju posted:Yes, I am Vladimir Putin.) Can I borrow a T-64?
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Aug 3, 2014 16:21
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Forgall posted:That was way before USSR. The large pogroms were before USSR yes but anti-semitism certainly continued to be a problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Anti-Fascist_Committee
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Aug 12, 2014 16:06
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