|
Is the current turn of events surprising for you? Why is corruption brought up as an excuse for rioting, whereas it was the change of course away from EU that triggered the protests? Can you in your mind honestly call the protests peaceful, with all the rock and molotov throwing going on for months? If Yanukovich were to go away, and the guy/girl replacing him turned out to be an even bigger rear end in a top hat (but supported by the West), do you think the same tactics would work to oust him? (I'm looking at Georgia, where it took 30k protestors to put Saakashvili in power, but later even 100k protestors couldn't budge him)
|
#
¿
Feb 20, 2014 15:03
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 21, 2024 19:39 |
|
|
Tankus posted:I can honestly say the protests were peaceful. They had people heckling and causing a bit of property damage, but no one was hurt. If you went to the center of Maidan (where the revolution started) it was a self ordered and maintained city within a city. If anyone has ever played the game fallout, it was EXACTLY that, plus a concert and motivational speaker. There were 100k protesters against Saakashvili at one point; it's that he perfected the strategy of containing and letting the protests die of boredom on their own, which Yanukovich seem to have emulated. Your guys went for capturing government buildings on the side though, forcing the government to act, which countered that strategy on a new level. Actual question though, besides internet stuff, what kind of local information sources does the government have/use and which ones the opposition? Who do the local TV and radio stations and news portals support?
|
|
#
¿
Feb 20, 2014 16:50
|
|
|
Earwicker posted:Protesters were being abducted and tortured/murdered by the police and their hired thugs before the current rock and molotov cocktail throwing began, it's not like the recent violence happened out of the blue or that Yanukovich was just letting the protestors "die of boredom"
|
|
#
¿
Feb 20, 2014 17:04
|
|
|
Earwicker posted:That's some marvelous goalpost shifting. I'm sure it's possible to rationalize the escalation. But who am I to judge. poo poo's too real at the moment. It is what it is. If anyone cares, I draw my comparisons from the Singing Revolution that I witnessed, which in the hindsight was a pretty great accomplishment in the world history. Despite an atmosphere ripe for provocations, the Baltic countries gained independence from USSR without any violence, or territorial division like in Moldova. Which is not to say there weren't deadly provocations, or standoffs by tens of thousands of oppositely minded protesters. Keeping cool and peaceful in the face of attacks and paramilitaries reaped a lot of goodwill dividends in the end, in presenting the case both in Moscow and abroad, and provided internal stability well into the future. For Ukraine today that's kind of useless knowledge, but it's why I'm frustrated with the Ukrainian protestors a bit.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 20, 2014 17:38
|
|
|
Namarrgon posted:I think he means violence from the rebels' side.  - Mom, I was in the city center and saw a Russian soldier get nailed in the head with half a brick!! - Oh my god what the christ - Yeah they were filming a movie and the brick was made of sponge, lolThrowing stones at soldiers would have been a provocation which a collective effort managed to avoid, so a US company making a film about the events had to make some poo poo up to make it dramatic. Oh well back to Ukraine. 
|
|
#
¿
Feb 20, 2014 18:28
|
|
|
Fallom posted:Agreed, successful protest is basically all about letting the opponents reach their kill limit so they experience a buffer overflow error. - Policeman Ivanov, you're accused of shooting protester Sidorov in the head at the night of 18th of February. What sayeth thou? - He was throwing Molotov cocktails and other deadly weapons at me while I was legally in the line of duty, the dude left of me had been shot in the neck and the guy right of me received third degree burns from molotov. My head was ringing from a cobblestone hit and thus I could have possibly missed. I claim self defense and regulations which say deadly force is authorized in case of attacks on the person of a policeman on duty, paragraph blah blah blah. - True, but... You're an rear end in a top hat. We're gonna jail you anyway. Oh wait, we're now supposed to be a democratic country so we can't.  Another the thing about violence is that it's never works in the confines of the limits that were intended. You think it's a good idea to throw rocks, some other guy thinks it's even better idea to throw a grenade. It doesn't end with the bossfight either, the protesters will have to live and keep on living with titushki and Regions Party supporters beside them. Time will tell how Ukraine will recover from this as a society. pigdog fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Feb 21, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Feb 21, 2014 08:14
|
|
|
Richard Bong posted:You are right, they would have been better off if they sat there and died, now they can't prosecute people according to you. Why would prosecuting these people in some imaginary trial even be a priority when they are busy just trying to stay alive? Bottom line is, resorting to violence starts a clusterfuck that doesn't just end with the protests either.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 21, 2014 08:37
|
|
|
Ironically in the 1920s the Nazis did a fair share of streetfighting themselves, and were victimized when the Weimar republic opened fire on them during the Beer Hall Putsch.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 21, 2014 12:28
|
|
|
gfanikf posted:Did you just..... Sorry, was just responding to psydude's driveby godwin. I think the demonstrators like Tankus have pure motives, and I can absolutely understand the sense of national unity that makes particular affiliations not matter at given moment. All I'm saying, just because the government is acting like a dickbag doesn't mean the protestors themselves are beyond criticism.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 21, 2014 12:48
|
|
|
Soo how about this guy (RT link because it's one of the few in English) http://rt.com/news/ukraine-radical-attacks-prosecutor-080/ The problem isn't that anybody believes everybody at Maidan agrees with this guy. It is a problem that he gets to do what he does. Either Ukraine ends up being the kind of country this guy is okay with -- which is hella scary and ostensibly not what most of the protesters were fighting for -- or somebody has to grow the balls to "betray the heroes of Maidan" and "sell out their sacrifice to Russians". Are there such people in power, and do they have the balls to do it? I really don't know. vvv You can't just handwave things away just because it doesn't fit your particular simplified mental model of the events. RT goes into more detail than say The Telegraph but doesn't void the self-explanatory videos. pigdog fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Feb 27, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Feb 27, 2014 22:27
|
|
|
Tankus posted:The situation here is just absolutely hosed. I am totally shocked. The reports coming in from the Crimea are also grim. Denying entry to the Crimea to Ukrainian citizens, comandeering journalists equipment. Troop placement and helicopters coming in. Tanks rolling into Ukraine. Now Russia has declaired open season on Ukraine. The rest of the world just sits on its hands "tut-tut-tutting" The people here are disgusted and confused. I for one find it frightening that we live in a time where Europe would let this happen on its doorstep.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 1, 2014 18:21
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 21, 2024 19:39 |
|
|
utjkju posted:I believe my friends from Ukraina. I think, i don't have reasons that i will not believe my friends.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 7, 2014 08:11
|
|