Become a literal slave for "experience"! The internship thread

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Become a literal slave for "experience"! The internship thread

Vox Nihili: May 28, 2008

Bloody Queef posted:

Is this D&D? I put myself through school without student loans by working my rear end off full time at a grocery store. Sure you can say I'm fortunate that I didn't get seriously sick (oh but I got a really bad liver infection that put me out of work/school for four weeks) or you can come up with a million reasons why it wasn't actually that hard for me. But the reality is, upward mobility isn't a lie. It isn't easy, but it shouldn't be.

I would have taken student loans if I got a great internship and it didn't pay anything. So would the tons who graduate with a hundred grand in debt.

E:

Exactly this. Don't expect to be upwardly mobile with your art degree. If you want to jump up in class, you need to be intelligent in your choices. This includes how you handle money, your major and career choice, and your work ethic. Sure all three done well aren't a guarantee, but it's the best way.

Your personal anecdote regarding upward mobility in the USA is compelling, particularly in light of the massive weight of evidence cutting against it. Would you mind sharing more from your trove of insight?

Working part-time at a grocery store won't even pay a substantial fraction of tuition at most public schools now, much less private schools. I understand that you were full-time, but that is not a tenable solution for most students.

Vox Nihili fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Mar 24, 2014

# ¿ Mar 24, 2014 08:06

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 21:22

Vox Nihili: May 28, 2008

Bloody Queef posted:

Not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but it simply requires hard work on the school and work front and getting the right employer that's willing to let you have a more fixed schedule. However, I frequently had a night class until 10pm and work at 4am the next morning.

Many of my classmates did the same thing. Many also did a blend of work and loans to pay for school. These are the people in good situations after graduation that would have been able to take a non paying internship to further their career. Whereas the history majors who were on 100% loans and spent money like crazy were hosed.

You just hear a lot more "I'm 100k in student loan debt and I have no job! drat this economy! Not my fault I spent money like water and picked a major with poor job prospects!" While people that came out of college in a better position than they started aren't talking about it.

I'm hoping you're not an English major, because you used tenable in a strange way, unless you meant it the way it's supposed to be used, and then I'm more confused.

So, I have a few things for you to consider. First off, if everyone elected to become an engineer or computer science major (insert other popular STEM major as needed), there would not be enough work for all of those newly-minted graduates. I personally know a good bunch of biology students who are not able to score meaningful biology jobs. At the time I went to college, doing biology was considered a "good idea" and a "growth area" by many people. Thanks to the curve system, a substantial portion of these people do not qualify for grad school to get into the programs that would make them employable. This was at a world-class university.

You must realize that what you accomplished is the exception, not the rule. Most people won't be able to achieve academic results on 4 hours of sleep. Furthermore, they shouldn't have to. The education system in America is broken and exploitative. When you say, "Well, worked for me! Just don't be in the bottom 75% of idiots who Did It Wrong" you hand-wave an incredibly immense and multi-faceted problem. Most people entering college don't even have the knowledge base to MAKE informed decisions, but will gladly accept at an expensive university because they've been told it's the smart thing to do. Are they idiots because of what they've been told by their parents, peers, and authorities? I don't think so.

Lastly, and most pedantically, my usage of the word "tenable" was entirely correct.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2014 02:11

Vox Nihili: May 28, 2008

No Wave posted:

Well, yes. Idiots are made. I think it's a terrible thing that their parents, peers, and authorities made them idiots.

Going into debt to learn next-to-nothing of value and to make no money in order to "learn" by doing on average 18 hours of work a week is a decision that nobody would make without everyone acting like it's somehow a good idea. It is a decision that only an idiot would make, but we raise people to still be dependent idiots by the age at which they make that decision.

I don't think that's what the word idiot means. I think a better description would be "ignorant." Of course, plenty of these people are simply dumb as well, and that shouldn't be ignored. My point is only that the core problem is the system itself, and blaming/namecalling the students only serves to transfer blame from the the blameworthy to the victims.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2014 03:20

Vox Nihili: May 28, 2008

No Wave posted:

So by your definition of the word, who's an idiot?

Hell don't go by my definition, go by the commonly-accepted and used definition of idiot: An idiot is defined as a "stupid person," generally speaking. A stupid person is someone who is not simply misguided or misinformed, but also below-average in intelligence. A stupid person would make the wrong decision even when presented with information sufficient to inform an individual of average intelligence of the correct decision.

quote:

Had an unpaid internship last summer, but it was for college credit so I actually had to pay tuition to be there. Some of the work I did was stuff I'm pretty sure benefitted the company in that it was work clients were paying for. I guess I was supposed to get critique and feedback on stuff I was doing, but that didn't really happen. What do you goons make of this, without me having to go more into detail? (Really I think all I achieved that summer was embarrassing myself, incidentally...)

I don't know how much feedback you're going to get with such a bare-bones narrative. Did you learn any new, marketable skills? Did you develop any significant industry connections that are likely to get you a foot in the door down the road? If not, yeah, you got shafted.

Vox Nihili fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Mar 26, 2014

# ¿ Mar 26, 2014 03:56

Vox Nihili: May 28, 2008

No Wave posted:

No, I think that a degree in applied math from Yale is still a good bet despite the fact that he doesn't have a job. You probably feel the same way as well.

I'm saying that any definition of idiot will be inevitably explainable by a set of circumstances. By insisting that someone making a terrible decision isn't an idiot, you're implying that there are other people who are idiots, but their decision-making process is usually quite compelling given their life circumstances and understanding of the situation.

Don't get me wrong - I do think it's a total sham that school debt is non-dischargeable and that non-dischargeable debt even exists. I would prefer a country where youthful idiocy cannot lead to a lifetime of financial servitude for the profit of others.

Pedantry aside, as long as you support meaningful regulation of the education-industrial complex, we're on the same page. The average 18 year-olds (not just the idiots!), armed with extremely limited information and life experience, are NEVER going to be able to make nuanced, effective choices in the face of the slick college industry and its monumental efforts at subterfuge, lobbying, etc. We should be acting to create an environment that places students where they and society will benefit most, or at least lays all the options before them in a balanced, exhaustive manner.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2014 05:29

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