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Rhyno posted:I don't see a single thing that alludes to Superboy Prime. True, but it is the most satisfying answer we have until is revealed it was Nix Uotan/Darkseid/the Anti Monitor/The New Gods doing.
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Aug 28, 2014 06:04
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:True, but it is the most satisfying answer we have until is revealed it was Nix Uotan/Darkseid/the Anti Monitor/The New Gods doing. If it's true why are you pushing so hard that it is SBP when he hasn't even shown his face in the N52 yet? And you're wrong that it's a satisfying answer.
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Aug 29, 2014 01:02
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Rhyno posted:If it's true why are you pushing so hard that it is SBP when he hasn't even shown his face in the N52 yet? And you're wrong that it's a satisfying answer. Because the scene is framed to be Winnick's explanation for the N52, personally I don't care about it (and I doubt Lobdell does) but I have to talk about it since it would be the biggest controversy on the story (lot "hoodies" have started to lose their poo poo over this over boards, FB and Tumblr) So you found more satisfying to have Jason suddenly become alive on his coffin just because?
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Aug 29, 2014 06:08
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Because the scene is framed to be Winnick's explanation for the N52, personally I don't care about it (and I doubt Lobdell does) but I have to talk about it since it would be the biggest controversy on the story (lot "hoodies" have started to lose their poo poo over this over boards, FB and Tumblr) Anything is better than SBP and you're the one who just decided that it was still in continuity contrary to everything we've seen on panel in the N52.
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Aug 29, 2014 07:00
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Rhyno posted:Anything is better than SBP and you're the one who just decided that it was still in continuity contrary to everything we've seen on panel in the N52. Not just me though, anyone familiar with Jason came to the same conclusion.
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Aug 29, 2014 07:34
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Not just me though, anyone familiar with Jason came to the same conclusion. I've read every single comic Jason Todd has appeared in since HUSH and I didn't come to that conclusion and you shouldn't speak for everyone. You actually had someone convinced it was SPB because you posted panels from the Annual without stating when they were from and thus almost converted someone else to your bad theories. Let me tell you this, nobody but you thought it was SPB. Just because you make poor conclusions and have terrible theories doesn't mean that everyone else thinks the same way. But then, nobody else is as obsessed with Jason Todd as you are.
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Aug 29, 2014 15:05
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Rhyno posted:I've read every single comic Jason Todd has appeared in since HUSH and I didn't come to that conclusion and you shouldn't speak for everyone. You actually had someone convinced it was SPB because you posted panels from the Annual without stating when they were from and thus almost converted someone else to your bad theories. That was the reaction on FB, tumblr and CBR. 
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Aug 29, 2014 15:42
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:That was the reaction on FB, tumblr and CBR. You're not defending your position very well when you use the cesspool of the internet as one of your sources.
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Aug 29, 2014 16:03
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Rhyno posted:You're not defending your position very well when you use the cesspool of the internet as one of your sources. Well, in this situation the fanbase is the only one that will discuss this kind of thing since DC will keep things foggy until they figure out the best way to take advantage of this setup. But I'll concede your point, instead of SPB let's say Jason was revived by cosmic fuckery again. Better? Also, I'm susrprised that you've read all of Jason appearances. Thought you hated (or didn't like at least) the guy.
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Aug 29, 2014 16:16
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Well, in this situation the fanbase is the only one that will discuss this kind of thing since DC will keep things foggy until they figure out the best way to take advantage of this setup. As far as we've seen so far there was no cosmic fuckery. He just woke up and we don't know why. I've never said anywhere that I don't like Jason Todd.
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Aug 29, 2014 16:17
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Rhyno posted:As far as we've seen so far there was no cosmic fuckery. He just woke up and we don't know why. Well, you were one of the harshest RHATO critics and since you never mentioned Jason again I assumed you didn't like him. Shows what I know, I guess. When you put Jason resurrection that way, it makes Bruce actions on B&RH more reasonable.
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Aug 29, 2014 16:25
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I was a harsh critic because for the bulk of it's run it has been a very, very bad comic.
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Aug 29, 2014 16:26
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Rhyno posted:I was a harsh critic because for the bulk of it's run it has been a very, very bad comic. I see, so has your opinion about the book changed a bit?
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Aug 29, 2014 17:04
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:So you found more satisfying to have Jason suddenly become alive on his coffin just because? For that matter, I still stand by my annoyance with the panel of him in shock and grasping/clawing at his casket lid going straight to him "stoically" badass-walking just past the grave he's clawed his way out of, only to be inexplicably "uuhhhh" woozy-fainting on the panel right before Talia's panel. Just because Winick had more pages/panels with which to tell a coherent "how did we get from here to there" does not excuse Lobdell and/or the artist failing to compress that sequence of events down, and frankly if it was decided that they couldn't pull that off in four panels then I'd have just preferred with a single "Jason gasping as he emerges from the hole clawed in the casket lid into open air" panel.
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Aug 29, 2014 18:07
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:I see, so has your opinion about the book changed a bit? It's had one or two bright spots but still sits at the bottom of my reading list as far as DC books go. The issue where Bruce and Jason reconciled was great but immediately chucked in the bin.
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Aug 29, 2014 20:41
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Rhyno posted:It's had one or two bright spots but still sits at the bottom of my reading list as far as DC books go. The issue where Bruce and Jason reconciled was great but immediately chucked in the bin. Yeah, after that issue the book was given to Tynion and we all know how that went.  Pfeifer wasn't that bad but felt "odd", and Lobdell's return arc started slow but ended really strong, I put issue 34 on the same level of quality writing as issue 18.
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Aug 29, 2014 21:16
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Wachter posted:So is anyone proofreading this or what? From last page, but...  Jason Todd is out for vengeance...stinky vengeance!
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Aug 29, 2014 21:34
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Esplanade posted:From last page, but... PLOP If nothing else this title is a great, long-running example of how not to write, draw, or letter a comic. Or did you edit that in there for laughs?
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Aug 30, 2014 23:26
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ryonguy posted:PLOP
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Aug 31, 2014 03:53
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ryonguy posted:PLOP RHATO's editors SUCK that much is true, but the art is great. Silva's the perfect artist for this books with his clear pencils and when paired with a great colorist, it just perfectly compliments Lobdell's script.     Now the writing isn't a "masterpiece" that looks to change the medium like everything Morrison does but it was never meant to do that, is just a book about three friends growing up together and having fun, nothing more, nothing less. And Lobdell accomplishes this goal masterfully, there's a real sense of growing and you can't compare the outlaws like they were on those first issues  With how they're now:  There's a real sense of development, Jason has grown into a fine leader, Kory has finally found someone to trust and Roy has gained the confidence he so desperately needed. RHATO's without a doubt one of the best team books on DC right now. If you don't like the characters, the book or Lobdell that's fine, but the book is far from being an unreadable mess...unlike Tynion's run on the book. I can't found anything worth there.
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Aug 31, 2014 05:35
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quote:but the art is great. No, no it isn't.
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Aug 31, 2014 09:17
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:
Oh, god, seriously, you couldn't have chosen two other pages to better demonstrate how terrible Lobdell's writing is. The first page establishes that Arsenal and Jason consider Kory's willingness to kill to be a positive trait. In the second, the same two guys are getting all high and mighty because she wants to revenge-kill the guy who enslaved her. These people are mercenaries. Their job description is: "killing people for fun and profit". In the same post, you have shown a page depicting Jason in the middle of a kickin' rad, Max Payne, dual-wielding murder rampage, glibly quipping "...I'm having the time of my life!" as he turns a bunch of dudes' faces into red goo. But Starfire enacting revenge? Why, that's irredeemably evil! This isn't character development, this is suspending logic and inverting behaviour to contrive a "cool" Mexican standoff in which two stone-cold murderers threaten to murder another stone-cold murderer if she murders yet another stone-cold murderer. And, of course, we can't have Lobdell's laser-shooting sex robot making decisions without the express approval of her two male chaperones, can we?
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Aug 31, 2014 12:28
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Wachter posted:Oh, god, seriously, you couldn't have chosen two other pages to better demonstrate how terrible Lobdell's writing is. The first page establishes that Arsenal and Jason consider Kory's willingness to kill to be a positive trait. In the second, the same two guys are getting all high and mighty because she wants to revenge-kill the guy who enslaved her. Well you see that is all Tynion's fault because...
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Aug 31, 2014 18:32
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Wachter posted:Oh, god, seriously, you couldn't have chosen two other pages to better demonstrate how terrible Lobdell's writing is. The first page establishes that Arsenal and Jason consider Kory's willingness to kill to be a positive trait. In the second, the same two guys are getting all high and mighty because she wants to revenge-kill the guy who enslaved her. That's exactly my point! ove the 34 issues the book has seen, Roy and Jason have grown as characters so they don't see murder as the ONLY option, specially when you're emotionally vulnerable. You can't pick issue 1 and then issue 34 and see them like the exact same characters, they've grown through their adventures, something a bit rare on superhero comics nowadays. You do have a point with my poor choice of pages but my intention was to show the two extremes between their characterizations and to do that I choose to ignore the bridge linking them. (For reference, the first page comes from issue 9 and the second for issue 34) Jason attitude towards Kory is a callback to Kory's peptalk he got back on issue 6:  And of course this apparent fallout of Kory with her best friend (Jason) and boyfriend (Roy) sets the stage for the upcoming drug abuse arc. Despite earlier promotional calling them mercenaries, there's nothing on the book tu sustain that notion. Eveything they've got involved is because personal reasons, they've never got a single dime out of it (they took Crux's ship as spoil of war though) and besides Superman and Batman no one else knows where they are with Batman being the only one who calls for Jason's (and JUST Jason's) help every now and then. First Bass posted:No, no it isn't. Would you mind to elaborate on that?
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Aug 31, 2014 19:01
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:You can't pick issue 1 and then issue 34 and see them like the exact same characters The page you posted featuring Jason's kiling spree is from #32. In that same issue, Jason's internal monologue shows that he agreed to fight some terrorists simply and solely because he enjoys killing bad guys. Two issues later, he and Arsenal threaten Starfire with lethal violence if she does the exact same thing. In this scene and this scene only, it is inexplicably suggested that her personal involvement with the victim will by itself make the murder morally reprehensible, and send Starfire on some dark, irreversible path -- forgetting that in the previous issue, a flashback shows Starfire executing slave trade collaborators in cold blood as a teenager. This is not a "dark past" or "dirty secret" flashback -- she kills with righteous indignation and is portrayed as a hero for having done so. In the absolute best case scenario, this is sloppy writing, because Lobdell has, in the space of paragraphs, forgotten Starfire's character and backstory. In the worst case, it flies in the face of Lobdell's frantic, stumbling attempts to humanise and empower Starfire since the controversy from issue #1, and reduces her to a naive and fragile little girl, totally reliant on instructions from her boyfriend. Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Despite earlier promotional calling them mercenaries, there's nothing on the book tu sustain that notion. Eveything they've got involved is because personal reasons, they've never got a single dime out of it See my above point. There's no meaningful difference between a person who engages in warfare for financial compensation and a person who does so purely for pleasure.
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Aug 31, 2014 20:21
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Wachter posted:The page you posted featuring Jason's kiling spree is from #32. In that same issue, Jason's internal monologue shows that he agreed to fight some terrorists simply and solely because he enjoys killing bad guys. Two issues later, he and Arsenal threaten Starfire with lethal violence if she does the exact same thing. In this scene and this scene only, it is inexplicably suggested that her personal involvement with the victim will by itself make the murder morally reprehensible, and send Starfire on some dark, irreversible path -- forgetting that in the previous issue, a flashback shows Starfire executing slave trade collaborators in cold blood as a teenager. This is not a "dark past" or "dirty secret" flashback -- she kills with righteous indignation and is portrayed as a hero for having done so. Ah, since your original post quoted only the pages I put highlighting the differences I didn't consider neccesary to elaborate on the opening sequence of issue 32. The point of contention on the former slaver killing stems from the book's theme since the beginning, redemptiom. They're aware they come from seriously dark and grim backgrounds but they're getting better and moving past those into a brighter future. Kory killing him over purely personal satisfaction (unlike the terrorists Jason and Roy killed on issue 32 that were treatening to nuke Washington or Kory's anihilition of the Blight back on issue 13) would mean a regression, throw everything they worked so hard to achieve just on a weakness moment. I read (and considering the next arc, maybe that was Lobdell's intention) their argument like if indiscriminate killing were and addiction they're just broking free and giving now would be falling head first into it again. There's also the fact that Jason sees Kory as the best of them and he don't want her to lose that. Finally, I thought a mercenary was one who got involved into armed conflicts for personal gain? The Outlaws haven't got involved as much as being dragged into conflicts and the opening sequence on issue 32 was Roy's pushing them to do something "heroic" for once.
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Aug 31, 2014 20:37
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Would you mind to elaborate on that? Let's ignore for a moment the absolutely garbage anatomy, or the fact that said anatomy isn't even consistent from panel to panel (unless I missed the part where Starfire's tits can magically expand and contract at will). The designs are unimaginative and aggrandizing, the penciler has never heard of the curved line, and the colorist must only use the "fill with color" tool in MS PAINT. This is one of the worst-looking comics in the New 52, which doesn't have a stellar art line-up to begin with.
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Aug 31, 2014 20:45
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First Bass posted:Let's ignore for a moment the absolutely garbage anatomy, or the fact that said anatomy isn't even consistent from panel to panel (unless I missed the part where Starfire's tits can magically expand and contract at will). The designs are unimaginative and aggrandizing, the penciler has never heard of the curved line, and the colorist must only use the "fill with color" tool in MS PAINT. This is one of the worst-looking comics in the New 52, which doesn't have a stellar art line-up to begin with. So I take you're reading the book and not just going by the examples I posted right? What is exactly wrong with the anatomy? Silva isn't going for a photorealistic take on the characters, the Outlaws designs were made by Rocafort and personally, I found Jason's current outfit as one of the best redesigns on the N52, specially now that he lost the stupid expressive mask. I like the colors being so bright since it makes for a really striking visuals, however, Silva does have some issues drawing male characters and he's pretty slow leading to some rush pencils or fill in artists. Still, the good outweights the bad specially considering how bad was the art on the book after Rocafort left.
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Aug 31, 2014 20:58
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:So I take you're reading the book and not just going by the examples I posted right? So what you're saying is you have absolutely poo poo for taste.
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Sep 1, 2014 01:33
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:So I take you're reading the book and not just going by the examples I posted right? Frankly, your taste in art is poo poo, and there hasn't been a single response to criticism of RHTOL from you that hasn't been fraught with simultaneous apologizing, like some part of you deep down realizes that this comic is at best droll trash, but some form of traumatic bonding keeps you weakly defending nearly every facet of it. I don't think this bad comic deserves its own thread, as it's clear you alone have taken up the torch of reminding people it exists; on the other hand, I guess having your own self-appointed ghetto is better than making GBS threads up the actual Bat-family thread whenever a new issue comes out. I'm not going to waste any more of as paltry a resource as Internet forums space arguing with you about it.
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Sep 1, 2014 07:12
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Thing is, you didn't gave an objective complaint regarding the art, despite having some pretty obvious issues (the lack of diversity on male faces and rush pencils I mentioned before), the other things fall squarely on the "I just don't like it" camp and hey, that's fine. This book isn't for everyone.I mean, you could not like Silva's pencils but there's a lot of people who really like it. I still don't see what are your issues with his anatomy though, unless you're talking of some poor drawings on issue 30 or 34, but as I mentioned before, that were rush jobs. When Silva's on point, he delivers some really fantastic work. ryonguy posted:So what you're saying is you have absolutely poo poo for taste. Not really, I didn't like Tynion's run a bit. Or Gopez' pencils:  Or Green II's:  I did liked Noel Rodriguez's pages:  Is very stylized and seems a great fit for the book tone, shame it were only three pages.
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Sep 1, 2014 07:29
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Oh boy, preview for RHATO's Futures End issue For all the people that wanted Jason going solo and returning to his violent roots, this issue is made for you. For those like me that enjoy the current dynamic, Lobdell is pulling his A-Game to give us a satisfying answer to why the Outlaws would break off. Jason's monologue got me hooked since the beginning. Kollins draws some wonky-looking people:  but drat if he doesn't draws a killer (literally and figuretively) Red Hood.  Can't wait for this issue. These bad boys also arrived today (Starfire should arrive at the nd of the month):  The sculpt is fantastic but the articulation is really lovely (or is that NECA has spoiled me?). Arsenal is by far the best figure of the two, the colors are really vibrant, his tatoos have a lot of detail and despite the limited articulation you can manage some pretty cool looking poses with him. Shame that the arrow he came with is pain to make him hold it though. Now Jason's sculpt is excellent, he really looks like Rocafort's drawing and that is a bit of a bad thing. The helmet with lips looks incredibly stupid in the figure and the choice of giving him the blades (that is actually a glider) is baffling, specially because Jason used them by two pages on issue 2 and vanished into the limbo:   The blades affect the figure's balance and it tends to fall with ease plus, it takes movility to an already limited articulation. With a smooth helmet and without the blades the figure would've been perfect, is still pretty good as is now (specially with Jason's lack of decent figures) but well, it was a bit of a dissapointment. Hopefully there will be another version with a smooth helmet/helmetless and with better articulation in the future.
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Sep 13, 2014 06:51
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Holy Crap HOLY CRAP How can Lobdell do it? He just topped himlsef AGAIN with the Future's End issue, there's no doubt on my mind now, he is THE Jason writer. He gets perfectly what it makes Jason tick, he can weave a story using whatever he is given... but there's no better prove that this pages from the issue:   It really tugs at my heartstrings the way Jason talks about his friends, his dissapointment at what Roy has become. Here's a level of characterization that no one has ever given to Jason before (And amusingly, Lobdell makes really poignant the separation of the Outlaws on just a few pages when Tynion couldn't do it on 10 issues)  This scene captures perfectly what Jason should be without a tether to a normal life, someone consumed by a goal but who's also developed enough to reflexionate about his own actions.  This is a perfect cap for the story since it gives that "and the adventure continues" feel that is the most adequate for this series. This beg the question of if Jason could carry a book on his own, I think he could but it would be needed to be sort of a Vertigo book to give him the freedom needed to face more down to earth threats. Or he would need a different approach leaving aside the Vigilante route. All in all this was a perfect issue (Kollins pencills even worked perfectly to convey the dark mood of the issue) and certainly one that deserves at least a glance. Easily, my favorite Future's End one shot. Now, while I was away the solicits hit and I have to say that I didn't see this coming:  RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS ANNUAL #2 Written by SCOTT LOBDELL Art by JONBOY MEYER Cover by R.B. SILVA and WALDEN WONG On sale DECEMBER 24 • 48 pg, FC, $4.99 US • RATED T Red Hood, Arsenal and Starfire face the one enemy they may not be able to defeat: the holidays!  The premise alone is amazing and if Lobdell can deliver an humorous script in the same way he can deliver a grim and dark one, is gonna be something really special.  RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #37 Written by SCOTT LOBDELL Art by R.B. SILVA Cover by STEPHEN SEGOVIA On sale DECEMBER 17 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T Revealed at last: the secret history of Roy Harper and Oliver Queen in The New 52! Thanks to Lobdell Roy has become one of my favorite characters and I can't wait to delve more into his past, and with any luck, Lobdell will ignore or downright retcon Tynion's bullshit from the past annual.
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Sep 17, 2014 17:16
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You seem like the kind of person who would love Cry For Justice. Enjoy.
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Sep 17, 2014 23:45
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:This is a perfect cap for the story since it gives that "and the adventure continues" feel that is the most adequate for this series. This beg the question of if Jason could carry a book on his own, I think he could but it would be needed to be sort of a Vertigo book to give him the freedom needed to face more down to earth threats. Or he would need a different approach leaving aside the Vigilante route.
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Sep 18, 2014 00:22
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The Jasonisher.
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Sep 18, 2014 01:15
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Flameingblack posted:You seem like the kind of person who would love Cry For Justice. Enjoy. Not really, unlike CFJ. Jason's motivations on the one shot are clear and he shows a lot of conrol on his actions (he always gives a chance for his targets to survive) plus his targets are more down to earth since he's after corrupt people and not supervillians. Chortles posted:Something that it seems like DC has no interest in publishing at the moment, then... though to be quite honest, I'd be more likely to see Red Hood-Jason as someone whose idea would work without the rest of the DC Universe around, New 52 or not. Yeah, vigilante Jason would work on a more realistic setting where his targets would be real life crime and not supervillians. I think it would fit on a more mature imprint since that way the creative team wouldn't to shy away from delicate issues. Althougha skillful writer would be needed so the premise doesn't become stagnant.
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Sep 18, 2014 01:24
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The preview for issue 35 has hit and well...       The opening pages left me speechless, I so didn't see THAT coming. By the way, I really liked the way Jason talks about Roy. Wednesday can't get here fast enough
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Oct 9, 2014 18:23
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Gotta love how smoothly Lobdell weaved things set up back on his return issue with the current issue, specially when it seemed we would never saw those picked up again. I'm repeating myself here but Lodbell NAILED another great issue. Something that I love of his writing is the interactions between the trio and how they've grown into a family:   The way Kory's drug addiction was handled was perfect and pretty realistic (as much as talking about alien princess can get anyways) since she starts actin very erratically until she completely loses it and poor Roy gets caught in the crossfire  Jason's motives to get high on Venom are so obvious and perfect that can't help but be amazed at how well Lobdell knows and understands him. What Jason would fear more than drugs? Dying again.   (Now, it is very convenient that the enemies surrounding Jason are hopped on Venom and all but hey, comic books) The reason for Jason to use Venom is so simple and obvious that despite being a cheap development it rings true to Jason's characterization. Excellent job on Lobdell's part. The surprise appearance of Ollie is also a great setup to finally get the story between him and Roy but aside of wondering how the hell they will get Roy on a piece again after this (barring a dip on a Lazarus Pit) I can't help but wonder if this is the start to "soft reboot" him and getting him back into the GA book.  A solid story and while the fill-art sometimes feels rushed, it works most of the time. Another great issue. Supergirl was also surprisingly good, shaky start aside (and even then, Bedard sort of explained a few pages later) Kara's and Jason interaction were golden.  Bedard also managed to work a lot of callbacks into the story:  The All-Blades  Those blades that are on Jason's figure  And even that goofy mask under the Red Hood helmet Another great thing is the way any possible relationship with Kara was handled in such masterful way that it blew completely out of the water whatever the Eternal team is trying to do with Jason.  The art is somewhat sloppy at times and I didn't like the return of Jason's expressive mask but all around a really solid issue. Since I'm talking abot Jason's appearances this week, I'm gonna say that Eternal is terrible.  The way they shill to Barbara like being the best (I can believe she's better than Jason but superior to Dick? no way) is really grating but is nothing compared to how thick and forced they're write Jason and Barbara crushing on each other, frankly it seems like something out of Tumblr or Fanfiction. It feels damaging to both characters since only reinforces the misguided impression of Jason being a second rate Dick Grayson on the N52 and takes a lot of agency to Barbara since it seems that she's crushin on Jason not for who is but because he's a replacement for Grayson. Seeley seems to be aware of this with the last page though:  With any luck Jason will never return to Eternal and since both RHATO and Batgirl are doing its own thing now, these relationship is never brought back again. Batman & Robin also had Jason guest starring but he didn't do anything of note beyond looking badass on some panels   
Dark_Tzitzimine fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Oct 15, 2014 |
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Oct 15, 2014 18:53
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Quote is not edit 
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Oct 15, 2014 18:54
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