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Honestly I expected it all the way up to the end to be a Scarecrow-gas nightmare. Looking back now at the story as a whole I have really mixed feelings about it. I'm actually relieved to read that Snyder/Capullo interview because frankly at the end I was just like Bruce saying "gently caress it I guess he is just immortal" and I was pissed but I guess I just misread that (I'm kind of peeved that Snyder made that comment about not shutting the door entirely because you just know some much worse writer is gonna come up years from now and actually make Joker immortal). It was a fun ride I suppose and I don't regret reading it but at the end I guess I finally do fall on the side of all the people who complain about Joker being too god-like in this story (and to a lesser extent Death of the Family) even though I had previously defended it. I mean he basically teleports from downtown Gotham all the way to the cave at the end immediately after finding out Grayson and Bruce had faked him out. Really though I'm just in mourning for Alfred's hand. RIP Alfred's hand, the true unnecessary casualty of this war. TwoPair fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Apr 30, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 06:41
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Re-reading through the issue I'm actually fine with the way Joker acted through the arc if only for the fact that when it came to it in the end, he was just a regular guy that got acid thrown on him. He wasn't an immortal devil, he was just another guy and rather than actually just laughing to his death was actually afraid. Like Batman he went to ridiculous levels but just like Batman they were both just determined guys at the end.
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Apr 30, 2015 09:28
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Waterhaul posted:Re-reading through the issue I'm actually fine with the way Joker acted through the arc if only for the fact that when it came to it in the end, he was just a regular guy that got acid thrown on him. He wasn't an immortal devil, he was just another guy and rather than actually just laughing to his death was actually afraid. Like Batman he went to ridiculous levels but just like Batman they were both just determined guys at the end. Not my Joker. 
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Apr 30, 2015 12:55
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Which, incidentally, is exactly how Death of the Family ended: When Bruce claims he knows Joker's real name and who he was before he went into the acid, Joker's defenses go down and he gets scared and starts wailing and stuff. This was just such an unnecessary retread and it happened so soon after DotF. Snyder is really obsessed with creating grand, epic stories but when every single Goddamn arc is a grand epic story it just becomes grating. I find myself hoping both of them stay dead for a while. Of course that won't happen and I'd almost put money on Joker showing up again before Bruce does, to terrorize Robo-Bat-Gordon. People need to get off of Frank Miller's nuts already. Give it a rest. DKR was thirty years ago. We need to stop acting like it's some infallible bible for Batman stories. I love Snyder and Capullo's fanboy energy that comes across in that interview, I can't get mad at them for being passionate about comics they love, but it seems like DKR is looming so large over their vision for the character that their own contributions to the character are pretty insubstantial. e: Not to mention how dumb it is to kill off Bruce like, a month after he finally got his son back. purple death ray fucked around with this message at 13:29 on Apr 30, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 13:20
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Travis343 posted:
Three years is considered to be soon?
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Apr 30, 2015 14:48
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bobkatt013 posted:Three years is considered to be soon? Also, chronologically, these two arcs take place one after another, which is a lot of Horror!Joker in a pretty short period of time. redbackground fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Apr 30, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 14:54
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My hope is (FCBD spoilers!) with Gordon now being the next Batman, we'll see less epic "nothing will be the same" stories and more shorter beats now that our protagonist is a different person entirely. Might be better to hope for that in Detective Comics though, which is essentially becoming Gotham Central lite in June.
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Apr 30, 2015 16:38
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redbackground posted:Death of the Family ended early 2013, Endgame started late 2014. There is also External so its not like its one after another.
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Apr 30, 2015 16:44
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bobkatt013 posted:There is also External so its not like its one after another.
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Apr 30, 2015 16:49
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Travis343 posted:e: Not to mention how dumb it is to kill off Bruce like, a month after he finally got his son back. Guess that explains the Robin solo series, though.
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Apr 30, 2015 16:51
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redbackground posted:How much time actually passes between Batman #17 and #35 (Zero Year taking up 99% of the issues between)? It can't be that long. A year. The same year where Eternal's shitstorm happens so yeah, even within universe is way too much poo poo happening back to back.
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Apr 30, 2015 16:53
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redbackground posted:How much time actually passes between Batman #17 and #35 (Zero Year taking up 99% of the issues between)? It can't be that long. Some time has passed based off of Damien.
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Apr 30, 2015 16:54
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I actually enjoyed this issue. Yes Snyder is leaning a bit too hard on the "grand epic" style but if I was to get a final confrontation between Batman and the Joker. This is how I would want it to be. I enjoyed that after all his grand poising Joker pretty much went out begging for his life and Batman pretending to give the Joker what he wanted just to screw with him. One thing that kind of blew me away is that usually big issues like this get spoiled by the media at least a week before the comic is released (usually to hype it up for sales) but there was hardly any spoilers released before this issue besides Gordon becoming Batman but that could be attributed to Bruce retiring/recovering/etc
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Apr 30, 2015 17:06
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There wasn't a lot to spoil though, Snyder went to record admitting that the change was temporary and that Bruce would be back in the cowl in time for BvS.
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Apr 30, 2015 17:18
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DC wouldn't even let Dick Grayson stay Batman, there's no way anybody actually believed they were going to replace him with a James Gordon-piloted rabbit for any kind of serious time frame.
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Apr 30, 2015 18:27
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Travis343 posted:DC wouldn't even let Dick Grayson stay Batman, there's no way anybody actually believed they were going to replace him with a James Gordon-piloted rabbit for any kind of serious time frame. That's actually the part that gets me, minus the cool looking Appleseed mech, it would have been a pretty decent thing to have Dick come back into being Batman. Since IMO that was where Snyder was writing his best Batman, where you could pull off things like this Batman didn't know super secret histories of Gotham, or super secret hidden groups, or ancient secret pools of secret healing juice buried underneath Gotham. But I digress that's been my main complaint from the start of this run, that his Bruce and Dick were pretty much interchangeable. Gordon as Batman will hopefully have a Gotham Central meets Robocop kinda vibe minus the shooting off of rapist's dicks.
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Apr 30, 2015 20:25
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Travis343 posted:e: Not to mention how dumb it is to kill off Bruce like, a month after he finally got his son back. It's getting Damian to finally have a solo Robin series. (Not that he couldn't have gone off alone anyway, but) I'm pumped about that! e: Well, almost made it to FCBD without finding out who's in the bunny suit. Cheers, bud. Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Apr 30, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 21:21
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I feel like most of the time since Damian was introduced, either one or the other was dead or thought to be dead.
Senor Candle fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Apr 30, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 21:46
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Convergence: Batgirl was hot garbage. Terrible art and just bad characterization all around.
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May 4, 2015 02:54
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hiddenriverninja posted:Convergence: Batgirl was hot garbage. Terrible art and just bad characterization all around. Agreed. I'd kind of preferred if the book was a) written by someone else (Kwitney doesn't seem to have the same engagement with the characters she's writing that some of the other Convergence writers do-it feels like she did the bare minimum of research) and b) focusing on Cassandra Cain - I mean Stephanie came back in Eternal, let Cass have the spotlight! You've got perfect dramatic potential with Cassandra's no-killing rule being forced to confront Telos' death match rules: a)She can't just throw the fight, since that would endanger Gotham. b)She also can't kill her opponent because aside from her not being big on killing, it'd also mean endangering the innocent people in the other city. But instead we have Steph angsting over not being good enough-which I honestly thought we'd gotten over by the point.
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May 4, 2015 08:28
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Yvonmukluk posted:Agreed. I'd kind of preferred if the book was a) written by someone else (Kwitney doesn't seem to have the same engagement with the characters she's writing that some of the other Convergence writers do-it feels like she did the bare minimum of research) and b) focusing on Cassandra Cain - I mean Stephanie came back in Eternal, let Cass have the spotlight! At this point they should put the nail in the coffin in whatever Cass/Steph could have been. So hard to be a Cass fan these 
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May 4, 2015 20:01
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Honestly, I'm surprised they didn't make it a Cass book & get Kelley Puckett back, he's not a regular DC guy and he co-created Cass. Do they secretly hate Asians? Well apparently, Cass is meant to be coming back. But since it's apparently under Snyder's pen, I'm uncertain. He wrote her well in Gates of Gotham but his quality is kind of weaving oddly overall.
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May 4, 2015 20:50
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why would it be a cass book when stephanie was batgirl immediately pre-new 52, which is what this Convergence round is
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May 4, 2015 22:45
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Yvonmukluk posted:Honestly, I'm surprised they didn't make it a Cass book & get Kelley Puckett back, he's not a regular DC guy and he co-created Cass. Do they secretly hate Asians? I'm trying to think, what would a New 52 Cassandra Cain be like? I've got to imagine she's going to differ greatly from the original. We haven't seen David Cain yet, so I don't think that's going to be part of her story. Maybe the new Batman will have his own "Bat-family" and Cass will be his new Batgirl?
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May 5, 2015 00:55
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Revol posted:I'm trying to think, what would a New 52 Cassandra Cain be like? I've got to imagine she's going to differ greatly from the original. We haven't seen David Cain yet, so I don't think that's going to be part of her story. Perhaps we could have a Batgirl family instead?
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May 5, 2015 01:20
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Yvonmukluk posted:Honestly, I'm surprised they didn't make it a Cass book & get Kelley Puckett back, he's not a regular DC guy and he co-created Cass. Do they secretly hate Asians?
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May 5, 2015 01:32
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lotus circle posted:Is Puckett even around anymore? Feels like he disappeared years ago. Though Scott Peterson would have been good too, since he created her. He stopped working for DC in 2014, and now works as an App developer. Which is a drat shame, because he was a wonderful writer. https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelleypuckett
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May 5, 2015 01:40
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Blockhouse posted:why would it be a cass book when stephanie was batgirl immediately pre-new 52, which is what this Convergence round is I meant making it a Blackbat book, not making Cass Batgirl.
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May 5, 2015 13:53
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Yvonmukluk posted:I meant making it a Blackbat book, not making Cass Batgirl. but there was never a black bat book for this to play off the whole idea of the convergence miniseries is they're books from that era
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May 5, 2015 16:26
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If there can be four active former Robins, there drat well can be three active former Batgirls. I'm tired of the constant Barbarawank DC has going on. 
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May 5, 2015 16:38
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There are three new young female bat-pals. Four if Carrie Kelly ever comes back. I'm okay with none of them being called Robin or Batgirl. e: Though, I'd've preferred Harper take on the Nightwing name or something, cause Bluebird is a terrible one.
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May 5, 2015 16:47
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Bluejay would have been cool. Bluebird is fine though. Dick was still Nightwing when Harper was introduced, wasn't he? I don't think the characters have ever really even met, it wouldn't make much sense for her to take his name.
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May 5, 2015 17:03
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Blue Jay is already a DC character, though.
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May 5, 2015 17:05
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hiddenriverninja posted:If there can be four active former Robins, there drat well can be three active former Batgirls. She is the far and away the most well known Batgirl it's not super surprising DC wants to push her
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May 5, 2015 17:07
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Bluebird is a better name than Red Robin, at the very least.
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May 5, 2015 17:13
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Blockhouse posted:She is the far and away the most well known Batgirl it's not super surprising DC wants to push her #notmybatgirl
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May 5, 2015 17:22
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Blockhouse posted:She is the far and away the most well known Batgirl it's not super surprising DC wants to push her Plus Cassandra was the first one to get her own book (which sold fairly well and lasted 73 issues). Only to get turfed out in favour of Steph (not a knock against her, she was a great Batgirl-editorial apparently wanted Misfit to be the new Btgirl until Simone wrote a letter explaining why that was a terrible idea. So they didn't really care who replaced her, just as long as she went away-I'm not saying that they're racists, but considering they seemed determined to make Batgirl white...) Also editorial apparently just told Beechen to make her a villain without providing any rationale why. Yvonmukluk fucked around with this message at 20:26 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 20:22
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Yvonmukluk posted:And why does it have to be mutually exclusive?
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May 5, 2015 20:24
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redbackground posted:It is kind of crazy just how long Cass had her own solo title. Six years is a lifetime these days. I'm trying to think of superheroines in the big two who've had longer consecutive runs. There's Spider-Girl, Supergirl, and Wonder Woman (off the top of my head). But nope, book got cancelled despite fairly decent sales (they didn't even let it reach the 75-issue milestone), and they made her a villain for...reasons. And then decided to launch a new book with a new Batgirl. Doesn't really matter who, so long as she's And then turn around and call her character 'toxic'. Whose fault was that, I wonder?
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May 5, 2015 20:29
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hiddenriverninja posted:If there can be four active former Robins, there drat well can be three active former Batgirls. There's only one character going by "Robin." The closest you get elsewise is Red Robin. I think Green Lanterns are the only dudes who can have the same title without being from a different universe. Like how they got rid of Wally West as The Flash and moved Jay over to Earth 2 with the rest of the society so Barry could be the only Flash in the main universe. Steph is probably back to being Spoiler and Cass...doesn't exist yet so Barbara can be the only Batgirl. DC has gone to a lot of effort to dress up the original (well...actually neither Barry nor Barbara are their original title holders, huh, I guess "main" versions of the characters?) as the only active ones in the main universe. It's probably why Wally isn't even Kid Flash yet despite it being over a year since he showed up. They've already got another Kid Flash they have to get rid of first.
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May 5, 2015 20:46
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