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Two Tone Shoes posted:There's only one character going by "Robin." The closest you get elsewise is Red Robin. Honestly, Legacy heroes was DC's USP, almost. Now it seems like Marvel's picking up that torch and running with it (All-New Avengers, for instance), while DC decided to launch into a silver-age circlejerk because that's what they grew up reading.
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May 5, 2015 21:07
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Yvonmukluk posted:Honestly, Legacy heroes was DC's USP, almost. Now it seems like Marvel's picking up that torch and running with it (All-New Avengers, for instance), while DC decided to launch into a silver-age circlejerk because that's what they grew up reading. The best part of that is the writer of the All New Avengers is one of the biggest fans of the Silver Age.
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May 5, 2015 21:09
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Yvonmukluk posted:He said FORMER robins. Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian-all in 5 years. While at the outset of the New52, there was only Babs (despite her apparently taken 3 years off from Batgirling) on the female side of things. Despite Steph & Cass having perfectly good alternate identities if you have to cling to ONE TWU BATGIRL (Spoiler, Blackbat). Yeah but the point is about having multiple people with the same name/title running around, which doesn't happen except for Lanterns. The comparison only works if, say, Barbara steps down from Batgirling which obviously isn't going to happen. But yeah, they could obviously come back as Spoiler or Black Bat. But you don't have the continuity fuckery of being former Batman proteges that the various former Robins got so it'd be pretty different. You don't have to talk to me about legacies. Wally was my favorite cape comic book character and I've been very upset with the various butchering and pissing on the corpses that DC has done to the Flash family since Infinite Crisis. I was just trying to point out how the situation with the Robins is obviously dissimilar to the situation with the Batgirls.
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May 5, 2015 21:16
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Two Tone Shoes posted:There's only one character going by "Robin." The closest you get elsewise is Red Robin. If we're getting into specifics, John got Green Lantern Corps, Guy is/was a Red Lantern and Kyle is a White Lantern. Hal despite being the main lantern has being missing from every major storyline since the initial story of the JL and the FCBD tease implies he will get the short end of the stick on Darkseid war. So no, not even the lanterns are safe 
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May 5, 2015 21:17
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:If we're getting into specifics, John got Green Lantern Corps, Guy is/was a Red Lantern and Kyle is a White Lantern. I'm not talking about the Book names. Obviously, even with same named characters, they wouldn't share book names. John Stewart is Green Lantern, Hal Jordan is Green Lantern. For a bit, Kyle and Guy were Green Lantern though they eventually changed. Simon Baz is Green Lantern. Green Lantern is the title that it's totally okay to have multiple guys sporting in the same universe at any time. Mostly as a hanger on of the "well, Green Lantern gets to keep most of its continuity because it's popular" thing, since they couldn't just reboot it with Hal as the only one ever like they did with Barry Allen.
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May 5, 2015 21:19
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Two Tone Shoes posted:
It's only so dissimilar because DC has decided it was. They could have had Dick come back as Robin, or had Barbara come back as Batgirl without erasing the other Batgirls from existence. There's only ever been one Batgirl or Robin at a time, DC just chose to bring back the "iconic" version of one and not the other.
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May 5, 2015 22:37
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Travis343 posted:It's only so dissimilar because DC has decided it was. They could have had Dick come back as Robin, or had Barbara come back as Batgirl without erasing the other Batgirls from existence. There's only ever been one Batgirl or Robin at a time, DC just chose to bring back the "iconic" version of one and not the other. Because the relative Robins were more important to Snyder's ongoing story than the Batgirls. It's pretty obvious. Same reason the GL franchise is so wonky and brought all their dudes back who were necessary to Johns' vision to come to completion.
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May 5, 2015 22:40
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Two Tone Shoes posted:Because the relative Robins were more important to Snyder's ongoing story than the Batgirls. It's pretty obvious. Same reason the GL franchise is so wonky and brought all their dudes back who were necessary to Johns' vision to come to completion. Except writers repeatedly requested to use Cass & Steph and were told no. Hell, that's why Harper Row exists-because Snyder wanted to use her but was told no, so he made a new character.
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May 5, 2015 22:43
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Crossposting from the DC threadDark_Tzitzimine posted:Denis Medri shares the Red Hood design for RH/Arsenal
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May 5, 2015 22:44
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Two Tone Shoes posted:Because the relative Robins were more important to Snyder's ongoing story than the Batgirls. It's pretty obvious. Same reason the GL franchise is so wonky and brought all their dudes back who were necessary to Johns' vision to come to completion. How were they important at ALL? What is intrinsically important about Dick, Jason, or Tim that their role couldn't have been filled by Cass, Steph, or even Barbara? Snyder also didn't have an "ongoing" story with Batman like Johns did with GL. What about Morrison's story? The last issue of Incorporated heavily featured Dick as Batman, and Steph as Batgirl.
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May 5, 2015 22:45
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Yvonmukluk posted:Except writers repeatedly requested to use Cass & Steph and were told no. Hell, that's why Harper Row exists-because Snyder wanted to use her but was told no, so he made a new character. Yeah and Manapul and Booch wanted to use Wally but were told no and now we get Venditti's awful take. I dunno, I guess they were super paranoid about Barbara being overtaken in popularity by the other Batgirls? The respective Robins had kind of carved out their separate niches apart from each other -- only Dick had ever "replaced" Bruce and neither Jason, Damian nor Tim wanted to take another Robin's title. Whereas Steph and Cassandra were both Batgirl at one point and they didn't want fans going "When is Barbara gonna be Oracle and get replaced by Cass/Steph as Batgirl?!?!" the same way they specifically said the reason Wally didn't survive the transition is they didn't want fans asking "When is Barry going to die so Wally can become The Flash?" Atleast, that was their excuse for why Wally didn't survive Flashpoint intact along with Barry. Long story short they're stupid, short sighted and paranoid about legacies replacing the characters they wanted donning the title for their reboot, but not so much so that their two best selling franchises didn't get to mostly continue. Steph and Cass "threatened" Barbara the same way Wally "threatened" Barry so they gave it a few years for fans of the characters to have their spirit slowly choked into nothingness to bring them back. You know, the "destroy the hopes and dreams of your fans" marketing strategy that's all the rage. Senor Candle posted:How were they important at ALL? What is intrinsically important about Dick, Jason, or Tim that their role couldn't have been filled by Cass, Steph, or even Barbara? It wasn't really about "filling in roles" so much as Batman got to keep on being Batman in a similar way to what he was Pre-52. That meant Damian was his sidekick. If Damian is his sidekick then the other Robins had come and gone, no matter how little sense it made (and boy did it ever not make sense). Two Tone Shoes fucked around with this message at 22:55 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 22:50
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Senor Candle posted:How were they important at ALL? What is intrinsically important about Dick, Jason, or Tim that their role couldn't have been filled by Cass, Steph, or even Barbara? Dick is an integral part of the mythos, Jason's death is still one of the turning points for Batman as character and Damian is his son. Tim is the one without a strong reason to stick around beyond fan preference and thus is the one who has been directionless during all the N52.
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May 5, 2015 22:51
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Dick is an integral part of the mythos, Jason's death is still one of the turning points for Batman as character and Damian is his son. Tim is the one without a strong reason to stick around beyond fan preference and thus is the one who has been directionless during all the N52. Notice I didn't mention Damien as one that could be swapped out. So what part of any of Snyder's Batman stories was it important that Dick was the first Robin or that Jason died?
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May 5, 2015 22:57
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Senor Candle posted:Notice I didn't mention Damien as one that could be swapped out. So what part of any of Snyder's Batman stories was it important that Dick was the first Robin or that Jason died? Court of Owls had this whole bit about Dick's destiny with the Court while Jason's death was an important background element for Death of the Family.
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May 5, 2015 23:00
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I mean, as much as I like her, I actually get Cassandra getting put on the backburner, because her origin and development as a character and stuff are a little tough to unpack if you're trying to start fresh and introductory (though they managed to fail their way through that), but holding back on Steph for so long - I mean, it's simple. Bad dad, became hero to gently caress with him, fell in with other heroes, elementary stuff here. Oy.
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May 5, 2015 23:12
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Court of Owls had this whole bit about Dick's destiny with the Court while Jason's death was an important background element for Death of the Family. Check it, it turns out Cass was being trained to be a killer for the Court! The fact that Snyder used Dick doesn't mean that it HAD to be Dick. "Important background element" is also not integral to the story, and even that I assume you are over emphasizing because I don't remember that beat at ALL. Two Tone Shoes posted:It wasn't really about "filling in roles" so much as Batman got to keep on being Batman in a similar way to what he was Pre-52. That meant Damian was his sidekick. If Damian is his sidekick then the other Robins had come and gone, no matter how little sense it made (and boy did it ever not make sense).
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May 5, 2015 23:14
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Dick is an integral part of the mythos, Jason's death is still one of the turning points for Batman as character and Damian is his son. Tim is the one without a strong reason to stick around beyond fan preference and thus is the one who has been directionless during all the N52. Hell, didn't Lobdell retcon it so the Nu52 Tim Drake isn't actually Tim Drake, he just uses it as an alias?
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May 5, 2015 23:18
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Dick is an integral part of the mythos, Jason's death is still one of the turning points for Batman as character and Damian is his son. Tim is the one without a strong reason to stick around beyond fan preference and thus is the one who has been directionless during all the N52. Eh Jason is rather directionless as well. Its not like Jasons death is a factor in his current poo poo. He is just the generic antihero, could be replaced by drat near anyone. Also his death wasn't that important to death of the family, you could remove it and it wouldn't change anything outside of stuff directly involving him.
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May 5, 2015 23:24
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Senor Candle posted:Similar in that he is running a multinational team of Batmans with Dick and Damien mostly handling Gotham? I know part of Damien's thing is that he is jealous of Bruce's relationship with the other Robins, but you could have easily pulled that off with JUST Dick and Damien. I don't think you can carry on the Pre-52 Batman run into the New 52 Batman run without Death in the Family, could you? I mean they basically did completely erase Tim Drake from the Batfamily for whatever that's worth and he got shoved into the giant, completely impenetrable shitpile that was Lobdell's Titans.
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May 5, 2015 23:24
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In fact Jason was actually much more important to Morrison's run, where he had been introduced as a villian pre-N52, and been given a shot at redemption during N52.Two Tone Shoes posted:I don't think you can carry on the Pre-52 Batman run into the New 52 Batman run without Death in the Family, could you? I'm not really sure what you're asking with your first question. But I was just disagreeing with the idea that somehow Jason, Tim, and Dick are somehow important to Snyder's run, and that's there are four Robins and one Batgirl. Senor Candle fucked around with this message at 23:27 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 23:25
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Sorry double post.
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May 5, 2015 23:27
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Senor Candle posted:In fact Jason was actually much more important to Morrison's run, where he had been introduced as a villian pre-N52, and been given a shot at redemption during N52. I guess I shouldn't have specified Snyder and more "all of the myriad Batman titles" that moved through the reboot. Snyder's just the first off the top of my head.
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May 5, 2015 23:29
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Senor Candle posted:Check it, it turns out Cass was being trained to be a killer for the Court! The fact that Snyder used Dick doesn't mean that it HAD to be Dick. "Important background element" is also not integral to the story, and even that I assume you are over emphasizing because I don't remember that beat at ALL. The Talon the Court set off on Bruce was Dick's ancestor though. And since Jason's alive these days his death is important because is one of the few moments were the Joker got the upper hand on Bruce. They're certainly culling the Robins on other adaptations. In the current animated movie universe it seems only Dick and Damian (why the hell people keeps changing his name to Damien?) exist, same during the first three years of Injustice. CharlestheHammer posted:Eh Jason is rather directionless as well. Jason HAS a direction. He's moving away from all the crap has been dragging him down for years and putting some distance between the Batfamily and him.
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May 5, 2015 23:38
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:The Talon the Court set off on Bruce was Dick's ancestor though. And since Jason's alive these days his death is important because is one of the few moments were the Joker got the upper hand on Bruce. I constantly spell Damian's name wrong and I don't know why!
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May 5, 2015 23:42
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:
That isn't a direction, you are just saying he is trying to get his own identity, which is exactly what you can say about Tim. Hell they both are about as successful.
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May 5, 2015 23:51
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Yeah Jason is his own man now, which is why he wears the symbol of his surrogate father and the hood of the guy who killed him!
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May 6, 2015 00:15
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CharlestheHammer posted:That isn't a direction, you are just saying he is trying to get his own identity, which is exactly what you can say about Tim. And that doesn't count as having a direction? It drives every one of his appearances, the ones written by good writers at least and not Eternal's bullshit. Travis343 posted:Yeah Jason is his own man now, which is why he wears the symbol of his surrogate father and the hood of the guy who killed him! People keeps making a huge deal of this and I don't understand why. The bat was put there just for brand recognition but within the story is never a relevant element. The few moments Jason's ties with Bruce were called for on RHATO were because who he was and not what he was wearing. Hell, on issue 6 Lobdell make a point of drive home the idea of Jason not being defined by whom he'd met or what he wears.
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May 6, 2015 04:27
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Its so generic and vague that I wouldn't call it a direction no. Also wearing the symbol means you are defined by it, pretending you aren't doesn't change that fact.
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May 6, 2015 04:41
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CharlestheHammer posted:Its so generic and vague that I wouldn't call it a direction no. After Under the Red Hood no one knew what to do with Jason so just having him travelling all around the world righting wrongs like a wild west outlaw is pretty drat awesome and a neat direction for his character. If Jason were defined by the symbol it wouldn't be using guns or killing people though.
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May 6, 2015 04:57
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Yvonmukluk posted:Hell, didn't Lobdell retcon it so the Nu52 Tim Drake isn't actually Tim Drake, he just uses it as an alias? Yeah his family got put into Witness Protection after he like... hacked the Penguin's computers and turned over incriminating evidence to the cops I don't know my memory's hazy (maybe I can actually forget bad stories now!). Anyway his actual first name is Tim, but "Drake" is not his last name. As much as I hate it I will side with D_T that Jason/Jason's death happening in the N52 kind of needs to be there (I think) for Death of the Family to work as well, just because it gives Batman more drive and really establishes that Joker is a real credible threat to his "family". Regardless it really doesn't matter, Jason being around is a symptom of the reboot not really rebooting Batman at all, so as to not affect Morrison's work, and Morrison was using Jason both as villain and as Wingman (what a silly name). Cass and Steph are casualties of DC wanking over Barbara and being not as big of a presence in Batman Inc as the boys (other than Tim who probably got spared thanks to his larger fanbase). TwoPair fucked around with this message at 06:12 on May 6, 2015 |
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May 6, 2015 05:58
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Two Tone Shoes posted:I'm not talking about the Book names. Obviously, even with same named characters, they wouldn't share book names. John Stewart is Green Lantern, Hal Jordan is Green Lantern. For a bit, Kyle and Guy were Green Lantern though they eventually changed. Simon Baz is Green Lantern. Green Lantern is the title that it's totally okay to have multiple guys sporting in the same universe at any time. Mostly as a hanger on of the "well, Green Lantern gets to keep most of its continuity because it's popular" thing, since they couldn't just reboot it with Hal as the only one ever like they did with Barry Allen. Yeah, and it's not like you could have multiple Hawkeyes running around in an award winning book that sells really well in trade and with non-traditional audiences or something, right? That's be stupid... 
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May 6, 2015 06:48
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Toph Bei Fong posted:Yeah, and it's not like you could have multiple Hawkeyes running around in an award winning book that sells really well in trade and with non-traditional audiences or something, right? That's be stupid... DC is infamously bad regarding their trade departament though
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May 6, 2015 06:54
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There's a comic coming up with a gang of Robins 
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May 6, 2015 07:19
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God, Convergence:Batgirl was a trainwreck that made it clear that Kwitney hadn't researched anything except maybe the original Robin solo book. Oracle/Nightwing was fine, though Canary's cameo was a little weird and the ending was rushed. Question was real good and obviously let Rucka do a compressed version of what he'd probably planned for the leads.
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May 8, 2015 15:49
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This thread is getting a bit long in the tooth, and seeing that there is a new Batman in town, plus a bunch of new comics related to Batman I am thinking of starting a new thread, unless there are any objections.
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May 20, 2015 22:20
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New Bat-thread is up over here.
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May 20, 2015 23:43
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