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Yes, I'm fairly sure Chuck Austen stuff was pretty much ignored. That creepy Warren + Paige stuff never came up again, Azazel showed up as a silly villain on a Jason Aaron comic (which are always full of silly villains sometimes to the detriment of the story), and that nurse character was completely written off. As bad as his run was (and it's one of the worst runs in X-Men history), it didn't try to redefine the mythos and the two main characters that got redefined for the worst (Kurt and Warren) were pretty much written much better later on. And thank god for that. Same thing for all that dumb poo poo Howard Mackie wrote about Havok in Mutant X. When you are just writing one comic and the rest of the line isn't forced to follow your lead, you can be pretty much ignored and forgotten rather quickly.
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Apr 10, 2014 21:04
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I've been reading the Morrison Xmen run and its really loving good. Though I'm confused about Phantomex, what was all that stuff he takes Prof X and Jean through? an illusion? It's stated he's the other Weapon that was being transported, but how does he have all this stuff, and a life as complex as it was shown if he didn't exist until recently. twistedmentat fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Apr 10, 2014 |
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Apr 10, 2014 21:06
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You know, arguments aside I really don't feel like Bendis wants to be on the X-books. It just comes off as rather negative and phoned in, with constant retreads or actual re-use of previous frames in canon. Spending multiple pages showing the Cyclops plane scene just killed my interest in the book, as odd rear end it sounds, it's several pages he put zero effort into. The plot is moving extremely slowly, and he isn't really exploring much of anything new. The original five. The phoenix. Time travel to re-use characters or ideas. Sentinels. Isn't the trial of Jean Grey something they've done in canon before? Isn't it seriously just a rehash of an idea except it is young-has not-done-it Jean Grey? Some of his issues I've really liked but as a whole I find my interest slipping away. I got bored during ANXM #25 and just put it down. This is like Fear Itself tie-in level Bendis. I would really enjoy if the Cyclops stuff felt like his Dark Avengers with a bit more ambiguity.
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Apr 10, 2014 21:16
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twistedmentat posted:Though I'm confused about Phantomex, what was all that stuff he takes Prof X and Jean through? an illusion? It's stated he's the other Weapon that was being transported, but how does he have all this stuff, and a life as complex as it was shown if he didn't exist until recently. Phantomex starts a bit weird and convulted, as a homage to French character Fantômas. He is later expanded on as having misdirection mutant powers, that his birth place "The World" runs on a much faster rate of time, and that his mother figure is just a construct. It is never explained how he amassed such a huge collection of antiques, weapons, etc though and it is left ambigous if any of that is real or not.
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Apr 10, 2014 21:27
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Spiderdrake posted:You know, arguments aside I really don't feel like Bendis wants to be on the X-books. It just comes off as rather negative and phoned in, with constant retreads or actual re-use of previous frames in canon. Spending multiple pages showing the Cyclops plane scene just killed my interest in the book, as odd rear end it sounds, it's several pages he put zero effort into. The plot is moving extremely slowly, and he isn't really exploring much of anything new. The original five. The phoenix. Time travel to re-use characters or ideas. Sentinels. Isn't the trial of Jean Grey something they've done in canon before? Isn't it seriously just a rehash of an idea except it is young-has not-done-it Jean Grey? The impression I get is that Bendis has a strong affinity for the early X-Men work, but much less so for everything that has happened in between. It probably was the same for the Avengers, but it's much easier to ignore 1970-2000 and tell a good Avenger story. You can't do that with X-Men. I'm not saying everything that's happened in the X-Men is essential by any means, but it's also harder to just go back to the core concepts of those old times.
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Apr 11, 2014 00:10
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Saoshyant posted:Phantomex starts a bit weird and convulted, as a homage to French character Fantômas. He is later expanded on as having misdirection mutant powers, that his birth place "The World" runs on a much faster rate of time, and that his mother figure is just a construct. It is never explained how he amassed such a huge collection of antiques, weapons, etc though and it is left ambigous if any of that is real or not. That makes a bit more sense than what was presented in the comic.
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Apr 11, 2014 00:36
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Amazing and Adjectiveless are getting One More Issue from me, only because I forgot to cancel them both when I went to my store today. I really want to like Adjectiveless because I like Jubilee, but also Mercury and Bling and Hellion and am hoping for more of them... but I'm not holding my breath. I'm still a fan of All-New and Uncanny, though. I don't think Bendis is overstepping bounds anywhere because it's all reversible without major retconning. We all know the O5 are going home at some point, we all know Cyke and Wolverine are gonna somewhat reconcile at some point.
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Apr 11, 2014 02:25
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Spider-Woman, Iron Fist and Dr. Strange sternly demand that Cyclops and Wolverine shake hands. They do and the schism ends.
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Apr 11, 2014 02:47
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Rick posted:Spider-Woman, Iron Fist and Dr. Strange sternly demand that Cyclops and Wolverine shake hands. They do and the schism ends. Too unrealistic. At no point in your proposed scenario does Dr Strange get jobbed by anybody.
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Apr 11, 2014 03:09
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Diet Poison posted:Amazing and Adjectiveless are getting One More Issue from me, only because I forgot to cancel them both when I went to my store today. I really want to like Adjectiveless because I like Jubilee, but also Mercury and Bling and Hellion and am hoping for more of them... but I'm not holding my breath. amazing is getting a new writer soon. 6 is a full in then it's yost.
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Apr 11, 2014 03:21
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SirDan3k posted:Too unrealistic. At no point in your proposed scenario does Dr Strange get jobbed by anybody. After cyclops and Wolverine shake hands, they both mutter something about how Strange is being a dick. They both smile. Wolverine punches Strange while Cyclops shoots him in the junk with his optic blasts. Then they walk away from him, laughing over how silly he looked, and go to get a beer. Spider-Woman goes with them, and they start arguing about which one of the two of them has a better shot with her.
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Apr 11, 2014 03:35
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I just read the Riot issues, and holy poo poo, that was messed up. Poor Sophie, and poor Quentin as well. He's just a dorky telepath, then finds out he's adopted and bam, turns into a drug addeled magneto wannabe that is literally killing people directly and indirectly. I am kind of bummed that I know Xorn is going to be a bad guy, because he's actually pretty cool currently in the story. The who shot the White Queen storyline is really good as well, I'm not done it but I love the delving into Emma's past and looking at what made her into the White Queen and why she joined the Xmen. Though I had no idea that Wolverine was such a manwhore.
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Apr 11, 2014 23:41
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It's been a good while since I read it, but I think "Riot at Xavier's" might have been the high point of Morrison's run. That's not to say any of what comes after it isn't good, because on the whole it is, but "Riot" was where a lot of his ideas were most fully realised (e.g. the increasing profile of mutants as a unique subculture).
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Apr 12, 2014 00:00
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twistedmentat posted:I am kind of bummed that I know Xorn is going to be a bad guy, because he's actually pretty cool currently in the story. Don't know how much you know about the twist, but when it happens, go back and read the part where Xorn is trying to "save" Quentin. It's bloody chilling.
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Apr 12, 2014 00:24
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hope and vaseline posted:Don't know how much you know about the twist, but when it happens, go back and read the part where Xorn is trying to "save" Quentin. It's bloody chilling. All I know about Xorn being a bad guy is he eventually kills the current Jean, which I assume happens in this run. That scene already had something off by it. There's a lot of hints about Xorn being not on the up and up, though it really seems like his friendship with Scott is genuine. This is some of the best Xmen I've read. Its so far ahead of everything that we are getting right now, and its on par with a lot of super classic Claremont stuff. But then it is Grant Morrison, who I think is one of the best comic writers currently along with Moore and Ellis.
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Apr 12, 2014 04:08
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Metal Loaf posted:It's been a good while since I read it, but I think "Riot at Xavier's" might have been the high point of Morrison's run. That's not to say any of what comes after it isn't good, because on the whole it is, but "Riot" was where a lot of his ideas were most fully realised (e.g. the increasing profile of mutants as a unique subculture). Yeah, Quentin being a straight edge kid and then becoming the head of a mutant riot that rejects Xavier's dream was great, my favorite of Morrison's run. Also, am I the only one that really dislikes his last arc? Here Comes Tomorrow? Why was Nightcrawler 1 really good or bad? I avoid current Claremont, but Nightcrawler is my favorite X-Man.
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Apr 12, 2014 06:01
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twistedmentat posted:All I know about Xorn being a bad guy is he eventually kills the current Jean, which I assume happens in this run. That scene already had something off by it. There's a lot of hints about Xorn being not on the up and up, though it really seems like his friendship with Scott is genuine.
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Apr 12, 2014 07:03
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twistedmentat posted:I just read the Riot issues, and holy poo poo, that was messed up. Poor Sophie, and poor Quentin as well. He's just a dorky telepath, then finds out he's adopted and bam, turns into a drug addeled magneto wannabe that is literally killing people directly and indirectly. Reading both this run and Disassembled so close together you get to fully experience the terriblness of just how Marvel didn't know how to handle Magneto for years.
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Apr 12, 2014 13:21
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radlum posted:Yeah, Quentin being a straight edge kid and then becoming the head of a mutant riot that rejects Xavier's dream was great, my favorite of Morrison's run. Also, am I the only one that really dislikes his last arc? Here Comes Tomorrow? It's pretty decent by Claremont standards, but it feels like the definition of a "nostalgia" book. I can't imagine this book having any appeal to those who aren't already familiar with Claremont's work and writing style.
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Apr 12, 2014 18:20
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So Xorn never existed, and was Magneto the whole time, but he was being controlled by Sublime? Yikes.
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Apr 12, 2014 18:48
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I gave up on Uncanny a while ago but every time I see a preview, it just seems like absolutely nothing is happening and there's no plot to speak of whatsoever. What a waste of Cyclops being a "villain".
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Apr 12, 2014 18:56
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twistedmentat posted:So Xorn never existed, and was Magneto the whole time, but he was being controlled by Sublime? Yikes. Don't try to find logic in it, your head will explode (you haven't even gotten to how the Scarlet Witch was somehow involved in it).
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Apr 12, 2014 18:57
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twistedmentat posted:So Xorn never existed, and was Magneto the whole time, but he was being controlled by Sublime? Yikes.
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Apr 12, 2014 18:57
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E the Shaggy posted:Don't try to find logic in it, your head will explode (you haven't even gotten to how the Scarlet Witch was somehow involved in it). It makes enough comic book sense. But, oh man, more hosed up Wanda related stuff. redbackground posted:You got it. And Kick was actually just Sublime. Which is kind of scary considering that Sublime is kind of a good guy in Adjectiveless now. I guess his sister is just that bad. It also made the future Brotherhood Xorn/Jean more meaningful. Xorn was a good person on the surface, but was evil underneath. With Magneto, I always figured his idea was not to kill all humans, but to make sure Mutants were on top and running the show, because that was the only way mutants would be truly safe.
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Apr 12, 2014 19:05
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twistedmentat posted:So Xorn never existed, and was Magneto the whole time, but he was being controlled by Sublime? Yikes. E the Shaggy posted:Don't try to find logic in it, your head will explode (you haven't even gotten to how the Scarlet Witch was somehow involved in it). I pretty much try to view Morrison's run in a self-contained bubble and don't try to apply the ret-ret-retcons that happened afterwards. It's pretty funny how everyone loved Xorn and what a great teacher and inspiration he was to all these kids, if only Mags would just drop the angry old militant mutant act. sidenote: Didn't Claremont or Austen come up with the twin Xorns or something afterwards, before Bendis tried to clean it up? hope and vaseline fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Apr 12, 2014 |
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Apr 12, 2014 19:07
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hope and vaseline posted:I pretty much try to view Morrison's run in a self-contained bubble and don't try to apply the ret-ret-retcons that happened afterwards. It's pretty funny how everyone loved Xorn and what a great teacher and inspiration he was to all these kids, if only Mags would just drop the angry old militant mutant act. So, first it was revealed that Xorn was actually Xorn pretending to be Magneto pretending to be Xorn being controlled by Sublime because we can't have a dead Magneto nor can we have a genocidal Magneto. Then Xorn's twin brother Xorn appeared.
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Apr 12, 2014 19:17
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hope and vaseline posted:I pretty much try to view Morrison's run in a self-contained bubble and don't try to apply the ret-ret-retcons that happened afterwards. It's pretty funny how everyone loved Xorn and what a great teacher and inspiration he was to all these kids, if only Mags would just drop the angry old militant mutant act. Well, Magneto being a great teacher was already a thing because he spent one of his dozen face turns working with Charles at the school.
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Apr 12, 2014 20:28
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twistedmentat posted:It makes enough comic book sense. But, oh man, more hosed up Wanda related stuff. Wanda constantly bringing her father back and trying to "fix" him is probably the best explanation. But I'm in the small camp that turning Magneto into a hero is toothless bullshit that takes away any moral dilemma and makes the X-Men a safe brand where you don't have to question anything.
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Apr 12, 2014 21:03
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twistedmentat posted:So Xorn never existed, and was Magneto the whole time, but he was being controlled by Sublime? Yikes. Magneto does loving nothing, makes up some bullshit about "oh wait no it's really a secondary mutation!", and just lets the kid die.
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Apr 12, 2014 21:04
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SirDan3k posted:Wanda constantly bringing her father back and trying to "fix" him is probably the best explanation. But I'm in the small camp that turning Magneto into a hero is toothless bullshit that takes away any moral dilemma and makes the X-Men a safe brand where you don't have to question anything. Yea, I always liked when Magneto and Charles were just two sides of the same coin, how they both had the same goal, just vastly different paths and morality. CapnAndy posted:Yeah, so remember when Xorn was trying to save Quentin? Go back and re-read it now. Oh yea, i went back and read that and was "whoa...that was cold, but everyone thinks Xorn is some healer and just accepts that he did try to heal him". And now there is an actual Xorn in China. I guess this is what was said to be one of the retcons of the Morrison run people were talking about. I'm sure they get worse. It's still more interesting than most of what's been going on lately in Xmen. Kinda funny the panel where everyone is complaining about the teams they are on Wolverine saying "I can't be on every team". Sorry Logan, but you are. Plus most of the Avengers teams as well.
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Apr 12, 2014 22:34
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E the Shaggy posted:Don't try to find logic in it, your head will explode (you haven't even gotten to how the Scarlet Witch was somehow involved in it). She wasn't, though, as far as I know. It was strongly implied that she was towards the end of House of M, but Bendis himself dropped this in favor of the Collective retcon, which somehow made even less sense (was the Collective meant to be one of the twin Xorns from the original Austen retcon, or some amorphous evil entity that took Magneto's form for some reason?).
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Apr 13, 2014 00:05
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radlum posted:Also, am I the only one that really dislikes his last arc? Here Comes Tomorrow? Probably easier to ask if anybody actually liked it? I also loathed the Planet X arc and in my mind New X-Men is a great example of something that went from awesome to poo poo very very quickly. I hate Magneto as a mass-murder type of villain. In his eyes, he's the champion of the mutant race and I like when he's written as a "by any means necessary except genocide" type. When he's written as a "kill all humans" type, it undermines the whole survived-the-holocaust aspect of him. I think him joining up with the X-Men when he did was believable and natural because they were living on their own island fortress and beginning to take on a more militant bent, which Mags would be all for. His recent strike out on his own is also natural because, mostly thanks to Bendis' glacial style, Cyclops' Rebel X-Men aren't really doing poo poo for the cause right now.
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Apr 13, 2014 01:01
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Grant Morrison apparently has a rather black and white view of Magneto so it shouldn't be suprising his take on the character is kind of poo poo. Plus the way Jean died was kind of lame considering.
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Apr 13, 2014 01:06
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Diet Poison posted:Probably easier to ask if anybody actually liked it? I do find how it deals with cloning and genetic manipulation to be completely stupid but that's a broad across the board thing I have with every X-book. At least it was creepy and evil without just being EVIL JEAN! EVIL XAVIER! so on. And yeah, the original X-future idea is still better, but that's peak Claremont for you.
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Apr 13, 2014 01:21
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Here Comes Tomorrow's main problem is we didn't get enough time to care about the future X-Men before they got systematically wiped out. There were some cool moments though, like finding out the Cuckoos were part of the Weapon Plus program, Fantomex essentially becoming batshit insane without EVA's grounding humanity, and Ernst/Nova's complete rehabilitation and her friendship with Martha Johansson 
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Apr 13, 2014 01:34
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Grant Morrison's take on Magneto rules because before the head X-Writer's chair stopped spinning from him hopping off Marvel went and proved it entirely right.
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Apr 13, 2014 01:44
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I really need to remember to cancel Adjectiveless next time I'm at the store. Most of the characters have the same matter-of-fact but kind of snarky way of speaking that makes everything feel flat. People seem to appear at two places at once. Also Selene's surname was spelled three different ways in three consecutive issues. It's such a weird, disjointed book. It's also boring. Kind of like what I would expect of an X-book from the late 90s. I thought Brian Wood was meant to be better than this. I'm buying so few books nowadays that this shouldn't be one of them.
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Apr 13, 2014 02:34
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It's not that I don't like Magneto as a villain, it's that I think his story arc as a villain ran its natural course (other than if he was permanently killed, the only thing that could happen was he was redeemed) and my problem is when lesser writers decide to have him twirl a mustache because they can't think of anything else to do. That isn't to say there still aren't some really good stories out there that could be told with Magneto as a villain, but it's going to have to be built to and we're far away at the moment.
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Apr 13, 2014 02:59
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I always liked the X-Men as a metaphor for civil rights, and I think that it explains at least some of the swings in Magneto's characterization. Let's posit that there are three types of writers. The first sees the X-Men as a metaphor for civil rights, and has a radical view of what those rights are and how to obtain them. Call it the Malcolm X model, or the "Brendan Eich should be fired for donating to Prop 8" model. For this writer, Magneto is obviously the good guy. He's arguing that mutants should stand up for their rights, by any means necessary; that mutants should be proud of who they are, instead of deferring to society's judgment of them. Only radical action, challenging society will achieve minority rights; gradualist compromise just leads to cooption. The second agrees that the X-Men are a metaphor for civil rights, but has a gradualist or conservative tack. This is the Martin Luther King model, or the Andrew Sullivan, "gay people are being meanies about Eich" model. To this writer, Xavier is the good guy, because his methods don't provoke as much opposition, and are more morally pure; as opposed to the radicals who are just drawing negative attention and making needless enemies. Gradual action is the way to get positive change; radical action provokes a greater harm than the benefit it provides. The third writer either doesn't believe in the civil rights metaphor, or wants to use the X-Men as a different metaphor, or just wants to tell an adventure story or something with no deeper meaning. According to this view, Xavier and Magneto can each be good or bad, depending on what the story requires. Since the X-Men are owned by Marvel, and not by any one writer, different writers cycle on and off; and each new writer (who wants to use him, anyway) rewrites Magneto's personality according to the writer's own goals. I think one of Morrison's goals was to blow up the old civil rights metaphor (MLK vs. Malcolm X, the struggle for formal equality) and replace it with a new one, with mutants as a metaphor for exploring multiculturalism. So he trashed Magneto's character, just like modern theories of multiculturalism largely trash old-school stuff like black nationalism and radical, direct action that might upset white people. I think writers and fans have divergent (and strongly held) opinions about civil rights and race, and also about whether X-Men comics are a good place to address those. So instead of everybody converging on one definitive core for who Magneto is, he swings back and forth wildly depending on the opinions of the person writing him. And I think this also explains why some fans hate genocidal Magneto, and others think it's the most blindingly obvious and correct place to take the character.
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Apr 13, 2014 07:48
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Every writer should trash the MLK Malcolm X model because it's incorrect and pretty loving offensive. X-Men is and always will be a very simplistic and pretty weak racism metaphor at the best of times, when even the "conservative gradualist" has a personal paramilitary group that not only defends mutant interests but ensures mutants are acting the 'right way'. Moving on to something, anything better than that poison well is a better idea.
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Apr 13, 2014 15:29
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