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Pick posted:Yeah, the horse was definitely Hitler. That's Our Donna! <laugh track> No, seriously, this is possibly the only thread this makes some kind of sense in. painted bird fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Mar 5, 2014 |
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Mar 5, 2014 16:20
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Not just some sense, that's like the most Donna Barr thing imaginable. The very essence of horse-Nazi amalgamation.
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Mar 5, 2014 16:25
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I just woke up and my first thought upon reading this thread: is there a single person in the goon Donna Barr Appreciation Society that's straight? Because if not, that'd be pretty funny.Pick posted:Not just some sense, that's like the most Donna Barr thing imaginable. The very essence of horse-Nazi amalgamation. Yeah, it really is.  This is part of the reason I can't look away.I'm currently reading the chapter where the Peach and Udo are in England, disguised as women. Is Udo Jewish? Because he's pretty adamant he's not.
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Mar 5, 2014 16:28
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chthonic bell posted:I'm currently reading the chapter where the Peach and Udo are in England, disguised as women. Is Udo Jewish? Because he's pretty adamant he's not. Oh, he definitely is, but he has a strange relationship with it that's expanded on as you go.
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Mar 5, 2014 16:31
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CROWS EVERYWHERE posted:She really likes writing scathing rebuttals to MRAs and internet libertarians and is deeply feminist and overall seems like someone you could almost talk to. I seem to recall she's going to be at Emerald City Comic-Con, and if I end up going I most definitely am going to stop by.
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Mar 5, 2014 18:31
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Pick posted:I seem to recall she's going to be at Emerald City Comic-Con, and if I end up going I most definitely am going to stop by. Ask her to sign something, preferably something completely crazy.
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Mar 5, 2014 19:24
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Goons seem to have a really high standard of what constitutes a "decent person." For everything I've seen of Barr I have never thought she was not a decent person. Considering her circumstances, she is perhaps exceptional.
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Mar 5, 2014 19:34
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Donna Barr is a wee bit fetishing when it comes to queer men, which is why I was initially suspicious. Also, my standards are pretty high, but I'm a gay, a poor, can't walk and have brain problems and I don't like people who don't think I deserve to live happily and on my own terms.
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Mar 5, 2014 19:48
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I am confident that, if nothing else, she is absolutely fascinating.
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Mar 5, 2014 20:03
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I read a few random issues of Stinz a few years ago and my general reaction was "oh, centaurs and centaur society, that's neat, oh Stinz can't climb the wall in basic training because horse body, haha what a unique and kooky dilemma!" Reading this thread, I... think I missed a lot.  I'll try and hit up her booth at ECCC though, I didn't know she was gonna be there. Sounds interesting. bigbigtruck fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Mar 5, 2014 |
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Mar 5, 2014 20:11
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If nothing else, she is an incredible (and prolific!) artist, and I can't help but respect her helping to pave the way for future women in indie comics. I was actually quite disappointed that the folk making a documentary about women in comics didn't seem to consider her. Yeah, she's an oddball, but isn't that part of what makes her story interesting? This is someone who knew the status quo and fiercely threw it to the wind. It takes some serious stones to have created this stuff, considering the way that women are pressured to keep their output within heavily restricted parameters, especially if it has sexual overtones. Even if you go "What the hell?" (which is a totally fair reaction to some of it) it's still a heck of a story and must have been one heck of a fight. Shame about all the Nazis though. Pick fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Mar 5, 2014 |
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Mar 5, 2014 20:29
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Pick posted:If nothing else, she is an incredible (and prolific!) artist, and I can't help but respect her helping to pave the way for future women in indie comics. I was actually quite disappointed that the folk making a documentary about women in comics didn't seem to consider her. Yeah, she's an oddball, but isn't that part of what makes her story interesting? This is someone who knew the status quo and fiercely threw it to the wind. It takes some serious stones to have created this stuff, considering the way that women are pressured to keep their output within heavily restricted parameters, especially if it has sexual overtones. Yeah, I can't imagine why they wouldn't want to include someone who draws almost nothing but fetish comics about Nazis.
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Mar 5, 2014 22:07
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bigbigtruck posted:I read a few random issues of Stinz a few years ago and my general reaction was "oh, centaurs and centaur society, that's neat, oh Stinz can't climb the wall in basic training because horse body, haha what a unique and kooky dilemma!" As far as I know, Stinz is the only comic she's managed to do without being dropped by publishers for being unmarketably insane.
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Mar 5, 2014 22:12
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I hate to be That Guy, but Stinz is completely Nazi-free and also not a fetish comic and The Desert Peach has a grand total of two sex scenes, is also not a fetish comic and depicts Nazis negatively. I'm not arguing it's not heavily whitewashing the Wehrmacht and that it isn't a questionable work, but the stuff she's best known for wasn't strictly speaking Nazi comics and didn't give off a fetish-y vibe at all. She's still definitely beyond the bounds of reason or good taste, but come on. If we're gonna snigger at Donna Barr, let's snigger at her for reasons that make sense and not some poo poo we made up.
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Mar 5, 2014 22:12
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chthonic bell posted:I hate to be That Guy, but Stinz is completely Nazi-free and also not a fetish comic and The Desert Peach has a grand total of two sex scenes, is also not a fetish comic and depicts Nazis negatively. Every bit of Desert Peach that's been posted comes across as definitely having a Nazi fetish. Or does having the half-naked Nazi dude getting his rear end tattooed not count as sexual and pandering just because no one's getting penetrated? Edit: It's like how Ilsa, She-Wolf Of The SS portrays Nazis negatively, and definitely has a plot of sorts, but is definitely and clearly a Nazi fetish movie.
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Mar 5, 2014 22:19
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If you can't distinguish between a sexy pin-up the author drew and the main body of work, I don't know what to tell you.  I'm not even denying that she's perpetuating the myth of a "clean Wehrmacht" and that at a glance, The Desert Peach looks really loving questionable (and at a deeper reading all I can ask is "why would you make this your life's work") but it's only barely Nazi and definitely not fetish-y, except that one issue, which has a gay sex scene that is the yaoiest loving thing.
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Mar 5, 2014 22:24
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chthonic bell posted:If you can't distinguish between a sexy pin-up the author drew and the main body of work, I don't know what to tell you. I've only seen what's been posted in this and the other thread, so you probably do understand her work better than I do, but... If we could just take The Desert Peach on its own, I would agree that it's not necessarily a Nazi fetish comic, but I think in light of everything that she's done since, then we have to admit there's definitely a fetishistic element to it. I think we need to ask "why is Donna Barr perpetuating the myth of the clean Wehrmacht? Why is her life's work essentialy Sexy Men Of The Reich?" and in light of her inability not to include Nazis in pretty much everything since then, I think we're left with only three real explanations. Either she's a Nazi herself (which doesn't seem very realistic), she's just a complete idiot (maybe, I mean, she did take an axe to the head), or she doesn't want to have to feel bad about how she finds them attractive. I don't think that makes her a bad person, and I don't think it makes anyone who enjoys her work a bad person (hell, I'm reading this thread because I found what was posted in the other to be absolutely fascinating, and I want to read more of her stuff, probably even going to pick up the collections at some point). It seems to me like she's probably also got some kind of a horse/centaur fetish, too. Maybe the internet's just ruined my ability to not see fetishes in these things, but I can't help but think that this is clearly the work of someone who finds strapping young men in Hugo Boss uniforms to be sexy: 
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Mar 5, 2014 22:54
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The question is, why is someone with a uniform fetish (who is not, as shown by anyone who's read anything political she writes, a Nazi, just kind of misguided in some ways[1]) any more embarrassing than many of the male luminaries of comics? Or other art forms? Do you also support cold-shouldering Quentin Tarantino, because of his obvious foot fetish, that he crams into every movie? I don't deny she's a weirdo at all, but honestly, if we were to exclude comic creators from things because they're weird, we'd be left with the guy who does the Family Circle and no one else. [1] the swastika reclamation thing (the sort of swastika that she has tattooed on her wrist is the sort that people who are trying to de-Nazify the swastika use), the "honorary Queer" thing, the clean Wehrmacht thing in The Desert Peach. EDIT: I'm not even touching Afterdead, because that is not a thing I want to touch. Afterdead is where I start suspecting Donna Barr no longer has a filter or an internal editor and is just doing whatever the hell she likes, no matter how preposterous. But that sort of behaviour doesn't stop people singing the praises of John K., so what gives? painted bird fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Mar 5, 2014 |
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Mar 5, 2014 23:00
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I think that the original point being made was that that's why she isn't in that one documentary about women in the comics industry, and if they were trying to show positive examples of women in a medium that often ignores them I can totally understand leaving out that weird lady who draws tons of gay nazis?
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Mar 5, 2014 23:04
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IronicDongz posted:I think that the original point being made was that that's why she isn't in that one documentary about women in the comics industry, and if they were trying to show positive examples of women in a medium that often ignores them I can totally understand leaving out that weird lady who draws tons of gay nazis? I guess, though I also see Pick's point: she's an indie creator whose work is completely out there and off-beat and she had the double burden of being a woman in comics and someone who was telling stories the comics industry didn't consider worthy of publishing. I'm just kinda sick of people trying to convince me how perverted and awful Barr is, both in the GBS thread and here. I know, okay. I know. Meanwhile, nerds love all sorts of men way more questionable than Barr is and they never even begin to admit those people have flaws, and that is starting to grate on me.
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Mar 5, 2014 23:10
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Excuse me I think some people need to refer to the thread title
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Mar 5, 2014 23:43
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As a species we have a long and proud history of holding women's sexuality to higher standards than men's. Quick, time to channel everything I learnt from Donna Barr into my Tess of the d'Urbervilles/Madame Bovary paper.
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Mar 6, 2014 01:12
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corn in the bible posted:As far as I know, Stinz is the only comic she's managed to do without being dropped by publishers for being unmarketably insane. That's rather unfair because 1) it isn't true, since Desert Peach and Hader and the Colonel were published in full by Fantagraphics and 2) we don't know the circumstances of her starting to self-publish. chthonic bell posted:I'm just kinda sick of people trying to convince me how perverted and awful Barr is, both in the GBS thread and here. I know, okay. I know. Meanwhile, nerds love all sorts of men way more questionable than Barr is and they never even begin to admit those people have flaws, and that is starting to grate on me. If I recall, the pinup is even from the 2010s when the comic itself is from the 80s/early 90s. One can imagine why they could be viewed separately.
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Mar 6, 2014 01:31
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Pick posted:That's rather unfair because 1) it isn't true, since Desert Peach and Hader and the Colonel were published in full by Fantagraphics and 2) we don't know the circumstances of her starting to self-publish. I don't know about Hader, but The Desert Peach was absolutely moved around from publisher to publisher.
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Mar 6, 2014 01:33
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corn in the bible posted:I don't know about Hader, but The Desert Peach was absolutely moved around from publisher to publisher. Oh, son of a gun, you're right, it moved from Fantagraphics to MU Press. I didn't notice since the issues look basically the same.
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Mar 6, 2014 01:36
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Pick posted:I wouldn't mind as much except over and over it's people admitting that they haven't read it. Frankly, with all the people trying to tell us we're literally Nazi fetishists, etc., I'm amazed the six or so of us haven't gotten avatars bought for us. Though I suppose given crowfeathers's/corn in the bible's avatar, it's pretty clear none of us would mind that much. 
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Mar 6, 2014 01:40
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Either way she seems to be enjoying herself and, more importantly, making a comfortable living out of her work, and I can't begrudge her that. Also I admit I like when she actually uses German phrases and idioms (rather than just *translator's note: sugoi means cool) because it is good for my vocab, and I've certainly improved my German vocabulary with worse sources (such disappointed looks when I reveal I learnt vast swathes of environmental-protection jargon from Rammstein). I am kind of glad I do not have a DP avatar because it would not go with my username! Though the chickens from Stinz are cute.
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Mar 6, 2014 01:45
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Yeah, let me make it perfectly clear, I just don't have a thing for Nazis. I just don't. I think some people end up in this position where for whatever reason they're really in sync with Hugo Boss fashion or whatever, maybe it's beyond their control and maybe it's not, but either way it's not my bag of beans. That said, it's possible for me to read something and be interested in it without it appealing to me sexually. I love comics and in a genre that is over-stuffed with generic drivel I can't imagine how anyone could not at least see why her work gets attention.
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Mar 6, 2014 01:47
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chthonic bell posted:Frankly, with all the people trying to tell us we're literally Nazi fetishists, etc., I'm amazed the six or so of us haven't gotten avatars bought for us. Scorn to the left of them, Scorn to the right of them, Scorn behind them Volley'd and thunder'd; When can their glory fade? Honour the Barr fans, noble half-dozen!
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Mar 6, 2014 01:48
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Yeah, just for the record: I'm a gay Russian, I'm disabled both physically and in the "I'm broken in the head" way and I'm an avowed leftist and always have been. I do not have a Nazi fetish. I just think Barr's work is really fascinating in a way you don't see often. The Desert Peach and Stinz are bizarre, but still comprehensible, which is a very rare combination.
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Mar 6, 2014 01:50
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chthonic bell posted:Frankly, with all the people trying to tell us we're literally Nazi fetishists, etc., I'm amazed the six or so of us haven't gotten avatars bought for us. My avatar is an endless source of confusion and anger from those around me. It's not my fault I swear
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Mar 6, 2014 01:51
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It's especially funny because there are what, two people who have actively posted things critical of Barr in these threads? And ALL-PRO SEXMAN bowed out of this one, so... one might almost suspect that some kind of gay nazi persecution complex has taken root here.
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Mar 6, 2014 01:52
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I was mostly talking about the GBS thread, where people were way more rabid about us enjoying a weird lady's work in a semi-unironic fashion. I don't actually think we're being persecuted, I'm just sick of the criticisms being the same old "it's a Nazi fetish comic! I didn't read it but it totally is!" poo poo. Come up with something new, sheesh. ALL-PRO SEXMAN actually had a point and I concede to his criticism of The DesertPeach being at best, rude and ahistorical.
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Mar 6, 2014 01:55
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I actually think there's a really good discussion to be had about what constitutes "over the line" or bad taste in regards to sensitive topics. I will admit, Barr's beyond my comfort zone when it comes to defending her work in full. However, I disagree with any position that has as its logical endpoint essentially broad artistic censorship. Additionally, I think you enter a weird space when you're criticizing someone who does, in an absolute sense, know more about a topic than you do. I'm not saying such critique is off the table, that's pretty much the opposite of my point. What makes this particularly interesting is I don't feel like I'm 100% behind any particular position and that's part of the fascination. There are a lot of fundamental questions about art that are really well-represented by this specific situation.
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Mar 6, 2014 02:02
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I just thought her comics were funny and weird and that other people should therefore see them. I did not intend for anyone to become enamored of it or for any of these other things to happen. Stinz is fun, but most of her other stuff skeeves me the gently caress off, to be honest.
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Mar 6, 2014 02:07
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I mean, I definitely know less than Barr when it comes to the 1940s and the Wehrmacht, but I do have a decent, by laymen's standards, knowledge of the war in general, though mostly about Operation Barbarossa/the Great Patriotic War and not about the Africa Korps. (Get back to me when I'm doing grad work, provided I ever manage to get a Bachelor's in history/anthropology in the first place. WW2 was a teenage obsession of mine.) But you're right. I'm not comfortable saying Barr has no right to write the poo poo she does, especially since she has put way more research into the topic than most people would put into anything they write. But I'm also not going to not have reservations about something like The Desert Peach. But on the other hand, you have all this and facehorses, too. Of course I'm fascinated.
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Mar 6, 2014 02:08
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corn in the bible posted:I just thought her comics were funny and weird and that other people should therefore see them. I did not intend for anyone to become enamored of it or for any of these other things to happen. Stinz is fun, but most of her other stuff skeeves me the gently caress off, to be honest. I do not want people to find Bosom Enemies among my belongings when I die. That is not a joke. But again that's part of what makes it interesting. She went from someone doing strange but totally defensible work--there is nothing wrong with Stinz in the slightest--to... Nazi rear end tats and Hitler face horses. Somewhere on that spectrum we kicked over to something you're not going to publicly admit you liked. But where and why?
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Mar 6, 2014 02:11
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corn in the bible posted:I just thought her comics were funny and weird and that other people should therefore see them. I did not intend for anyone to become enamored of it or for any of these other things to happen. Stinz is fun, but most of her other stuff skeeves me the gently caress off, to be honest. Too late, you're literally the Peach in my mind, now. But also, I can't really be skeeved out by something like Bosom Enemies or Afterdead. Horses with human faces? Half-horse, half-men beasts of burden? I just find that poo poo hilarious, even if it is at least partially sexual to the creator or some of the audience. 
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Mar 6, 2014 02:14
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I would not like to explain to any of my German friends why I have Afterdead and her blogs/dA bookmarked. Though my disappointingly poor taste should not come as a shock to them anymore. Also, thank you for making the thread on my birthday.  It was more than I could ever dream of.
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Mar 6, 2014 02:15
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I am avidly reading this thread despite not having read a lick of Donna Barr's work other than what's been posted. Just wanted to say a. I can understand the fascination with her work, something about her inks is just enchanting and b. I don't think you're Nazis  It's really weird, because I normally have a kneejerk aversion to anything to do with Nazi Germany, to the point where I really can't enjoy even the most U.S. centric WWII documentaries/POV stories without kind of wanting to get up and leave (making it through Band of Brothers was difficult as I kept just waiting for the inevitable depiction of a concentration camp and my own unstoppable tears to click on). But there is something so deranged, dedicated, bizarre about her art that I really, really am curious about reading more. On a side note, the phrase "lick of Donna Barr" sounds much, much filthier than I ever thought it would.
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