Pacific Northwest Thread

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48 Hour Boner: May 26, 2005; I think something's wrong with this thing

glowing-fish posted:

Clark County

All pretty terrible places tbqh.

# ? Jan 29, 2017 19:25

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# ? Apr 30, 2024 18:35

anthonypants: May 6, 2007; by Nyc_Tattoo; Dinosaur Gum

glowing-fish posted:

Question for people who grew up in the Pacific Northwest, especially small towns:

For most of elementary school, I went to school in Battle Ground, Washington, which at the time was a small town (now it is a pretty ugly exurb). There were two African-American students (siblings) in my elementary school.
I remember learning about the civil rights movement, well, about Martin Luther King, over and over again, and I remember my teachers stressing that it was a good, heroic and pure thing. My memories of it seem to be that my teachers were quite genuine about it. As much as I can remember, I never remember hearing any type of racial slurs against blacks as a child, or hearing my parents or my friends parents say anything racist, no eye rolls or "those people". But there is a good chance that this was because I was like, 7 years old.

I was surprised in 2015, I was in Clark County and on three occasions I saw Confederate flags flying. Like, what happened to the area I grew up in, which seemed to be full of the most mild, polite people who generally thought being fair and respectful was important, that they changed so much? I am not saying everyone in areas like that is like that, but I have no idea where it came from.

Was this because I am just looking at my past through rose colored glasses, or did things really change?

Hey, welcome back to the thread. I thought you'd closed it?

To answer your question, a black man was president for the last eight years.

# ? Jan 29, 2017 19:28

glowing-fish: Feb 18, 2013; Keep grinding,
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48 Hour Boner posted:

All pretty terrible places tbqh.

I've been in a lot worse.

Why would you say they are terrible? And also, *when* would you say they were terrible? Battle Ground has changed a lot in 30 years.

# ? Jan 29, 2017 19:31

Error 404: Jul 17, 2009; MAGE CURES PLOT

glowing-fish posted:

When you say "Its always been normal. Death to America", what are you seriously suggesting? That the United States is always, in every place, and in every situation, so racist that the only solution is to destroy it?

Yes

E:
"This Is Not Normal!" cried the 1st world settler, perched atop hoarded wealth looted across centuries of imperialism & colonialism.

Error 404 fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Jan 29, 2017

# ? Jan 29, 2017 19:32

glowing-fish: Feb 18, 2013; Keep grinding,
I hope you level up!

Error 404 posted:

Yes

So explain to me what features of the United States are intrinsically racist?
Explain to me how exactly you propose to accomplish "Death to America", and what you are going to replace it with?

# ? Jan 29, 2017 19:42

Error 404: Jul 17, 2009; MAGE CURES PLOT

That part where we founded this country on land stolen from the millions of people we killed who lived here first was p racist.

# ? Jan 29, 2017 19:47

Lord Waffle Beard: Dec 7, 2013

Cascadia, the Cascadia will have a civil war and all the rednecks with guns win, and Cascadia will be pure again

# ? Jan 29, 2017 19:48

Mr. Lobe: Feb 23, 2007; ... Dry bones...

RE: normality

https://twitter.com/cushbomb/status/825763278785753088

# ? Jan 29, 2017 19:48

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

glowing-fish posted:

Was this because I am just looking at my past through rose colored glasses, or did things really change?

I though Battleground (and its surrounding parcels of "get off my land!") was partially a camp for one of the crazy "breed warriors for Christ" churches that pump out kids and keep "the women" at home and pregnant?

With that in mind, I assumed that of course there were racist rightwingers all over that town.

# ? Jan 29, 2017 20:28

glowing-fish: Feb 18, 2013; Keep grinding,
I hope you level up!

FRINGE posted:

I though Battleground (and its surrounding parcels of "get off my land!") was partially a camp for one of the crazy "breed warriors for Christ" churches that pump out kids and keep "the women" at home and pregnant?

With that in mind, I assumed that of course there were racist rightwingers all over that town.

Battle Ground, two words.

I don't know what group you are referring to, unless you mean the Apostolic Lutherans, a group from Finland that started emigrating to the United States in the 1970s, and are generally conservative in their society.

We actually did make fun of them as a kid a lot: because the women weren't allowed to cut their hair (at least we thought that was the case), and therefore ended up wearing it up, they were called "bunheads". So yes, when I talk about my childhood being racism free, I am discounting that we were quite casually racist towards Finnish immigrants.

But at the time, they were not the mainstream of the town. They were discriminated against a lot.

One of the problems with having discussions about "rural" America is that people often paint very disparate groups of people with the same brush. You are talking about an insular group of immigrants as if they were a large group of people who was part of "mainstream" American culture, like conservative religious refugees and Duck Dynasty watching suburbanities are the same thing. when (at least when I was a kid, things might have changed now), those two groups would have been very different. The vague "Murica, pick-up trucks and barbecue" rednecks would have probably have thought of the Apostolic Lutherans as kooky religious weirdos, and the Apostolic Lutherans probably would have thought of the first as a product of urban secular culture.

# ? Jan 29, 2017 20:46

glowing-fish: Feb 18, 2013; Keep grinding,
I hope you level up!

FRINGE posted:

I though Battleground (and its surrounding parcels of "get off my land!") was partially a camp for one of the crazy "breed warriors for Christ" churches that pump out kids and keep "the women" at home and pregnant?

With that in mind, I assumed that of course there were racist rightwingers all over that town.

One of the things I put in my original post was that I hoped this thread wouldn't just dissolve into stereotypes. The fact that nobody seemed to be interested in sharing new information, or doing any research, but just wanted to repeat stereotypes, was one of the reasons why I shut it down. If people wanted a thread where they could repost, over and over, stereotypes, you now have that NW chatting thread.

Like, I know that for people who never leave Seattle or Portland, Chehalis and Longview are identical, but those cities have very different histories. That is why I asked this question: not just to have people repeat what stereotypes people have about these areas, but to ask them what their lives were really like growing up there.

# ? Jan 29, 2017 20:50

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

glowing-fish posted:

One of the problems with having discussions about "rural" America is that people often paint very disparate groups of people with the same brush. You are talking about an insular group of immigrants as if they were a large group of people who was part of "mainstream" American culture, like conservative religious refugees and Duck Dynasty watching suburbanities are the same thing.

I briefly stayed near Battle Ground (and Yacolt), and youre right, I was not well-versed enough to tell the foreign cult apart from the 'murkan counterparts. The people were generally pleasant, but I dont find it shocking at all that a conservative area with access to media in the post 2000's would be a part of the "conservative movement". So yes, I think your surprise does seem naive to me.

I would point out that 30 years after your time there, the children of the Finnish cult have grown up, and grew up in rural Washington, and may well have become a part of what you are now seeing.

Youre also right that no one will know Chehalis from Longview. Ive stopped in both and couldnt say much about them.

Expecting people to spend several years living in and/or becoming acquainted with a specific village is asking a bit much though.

# ? Jan 29, 2017 20:59

Error 404: Jul 17, 2009; MAGE CURES PLOT

Maybe if they made a graph....

# ? Jan 29, 2017 21:11

glowing-fish: Feb 18, 2013; Keep grinding,
I hope you level up!

FRINGE posted:

Youre also right that no one will know Chehalis from Longview. Ive stopped in both and couldnt say much about them.

There is a big difference between the two, historically, because Cowlitz County (Kelso-Longview) was a port town, was industrial, and was heavily unionized. Like Cowlitz County (along with maybe Pierce County) is one of the few places in the Pacific Northwest that demographically looks like a rust belt area. Its voting has traditionally been very Democratic, for example, in Reagan's 1984 landslide, Cowlitz County voted for Mondale. Lewis County is one of the few areas that was ever primarily a farming region between Portland and Seattle, and its always been rural and conservative.

Over the past few years, the two areas have kind of converged, though.

Also, despite passing through these cities like 100 times since I was a small child, I have not spent too much time in either one of them, so I can't tell you exactly how these broad demographic patterns are reflected in the way the people there live, and their attitudes.

# ? Jan 29, 2017 21:23

glowing-fish: Feb 18, 2013; Keep grinding,
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Error 404 posted:

Maybe if they made a graph....

Great idea, working on it!

Edited:

A graph showing how the Republican vote percentage (not margin) has changed in three SW Washington counties, relative to Washington as a whole, and relative to the United States as a whole.

A couple things to note: one, although the numbers differ, their change is, for the most part, fairly close. Those lines move together.

Over time, Washington has become much less Republican than the nation as a whole. (Not a surprise!)

Clark County, although it is seen by people in Portland and Seattle as conservative, is pretty close to the US as a whole. Only in two elections, 1984 and 2004, did more than 50% of people in Clark County vote Republican. Its conservative for the northwest, but compared to a county of a similar size in the midwest or the deep south, its pretty liberal.

Cowlitz County, traditionally a Democratic stonghold, has shifted allegiances over the past few cycles, and especially this last year. From voting 10% less Republican than the country as a whole, this cycle it voted 5% more Republican than the country as a whole. This is some evidence for the view that non-college educated whites have shifted dramatically towards Trump.

Any questions?

glowing-fish fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Jan 29, 2017

# ? Jan 29, 2017 21:28

Solkanar512: Dec 28, 2006; by the sex ghost

glowing-fish posted:

One of the things I put in my original post was that I hoped this thread wouldn't just dissolve into stereotypes. The fact that nobody seemed to be interested in sharing new information, or doing any research, but just wanted to repeat stereotypes, was one of the reasons why I shut it down. If people wanted a thread where they could repost, over and over, stereotypes, you now have that NW chatting thread.

Like, I know that for people who never leave Seattle or Portland, Chehalis and Longview are identical, but those cities have very different histories. That is why I asked this question: not just to have people repeat what stereotypes people have about these areas, but to ask them what their lives were really like growing up there.

Which NW thread are you talking about, the Seattle thread?

# ? Jan 29, 2017 22:45

glowing-fish: Feb 18, 2013; Keep grinding,
I hope you level up!

Solkanar512 posted:

Which NW thread are you talking about, the Seattle thread?

The one that is started in D&D. I am happy that people have a chat thread. I suspended this thread just so people could start a chat thread.
It would make more sense to me for that thread not to be in D&D, since its basically for people to post "Where is the best place for beer?" and "FYGM Rethuglicans suckk!!!!" over and over, but I guess we can have two threads in D&D.

# ? Jan 29, 2017 23:05

HashtagGirlboss: Jan 4, 2005

glowing-fish posted:

The one that is started in D&D. I am happy that people have a chat thread. I suspended this thread just so people could start a chat thread.
It would make more sense to me for that thread not to be in D&D, since its basically for people to post "Where is the best place for beer?" and "FYGM Rethuglicans suckk!!!!" over and over, but I guess we can have two threads in D&D.

You really expect an idiotic amount of content control in an internet thread. I mean I can't imagine that there's enough interest in the PNW to justify a "chat" thread and a "serious". If it's that hard to skip over posts on topics you're uninterested in you should really go to reddit - you'll like the layout better.

# ? Jan 29, 2017 23:12

coyo7e: Aug 23, 2007; by zen death robot

gently caress you. You threw a hissy fit and closed your own thread, then re-opened it because you couldn't stand not seeing yourself as somehow in charge of a thread.

Close this thread.

# ? Jan 29, 2017 23:13

glowing-fish: Feb 18, 2013; Keep grinding,
I hope you level up!

xrunner posted:

You really expect an idiotic amount of content control in an internet thread. I mean I can't imagine that there's enough interest in the PNW to justify a "chat" thread and a "serious". If it's that hard to skip over posts on topics you're uninterested in you should really go to reddit - you'll like the layout better.

I would prefer this thread didn't devolve too much into a meta discussion. You have another thread to post in, right?

I asked a question that I thought was interesting. Then, I even spent a half hour composing a graph about long term political trends in Washington. I thought it was interesting, a lot more interesting than meta discussion. I will refrain from meta discussion, and only respond to posts about content. If people want to abandon this thread, that is fine with me.

# ? Jan 29, 2017 23:23

anthonypants: May 6, 2007; by Nyc_Tattoo; Dinosaur Gum

glowing-fish posted:

Great idea, working on it!

Edited:

A graph showing how the Republican vote percentage (not margin) has changed in three SW Washington counties, relative to Washington as a whole, and relative to the United States as a whole.

A couple things to note: one, although the numbers differ, their change is, for the most part, fairly close. Those lines move together.

Over time, Washington has become much less Republican than the nation as a whole. (Not a surprise!)

Clark County, although it is seen by people in Portland and Seattle as conservative, is pretty close to the US as a whole. Only in two elections, 1984 and 2004, did more than 50% of people in Clark County vote Republican. Its conservative for the northwest, but compared to a county of a similar size in the midwest or the deep south, its pretty liberal.

Cowlitz County, traditionally a Democratic stonghold, has shifted allegiances over the past few cycles, and especially this last year. From voting 10% less Republican than the country as a whole, this cycle it voted 5% more Republican than the country as a whole. This is some evidence for the view that non-college educated whites have shifted dramatically towards Trump.

Any questions?

I will never understand the handwringing that occurs over electing a president. Here are some questions:
Why is it not surprising?
Why were Clark/Cowlitz/Lewis cherrypicked?
Why did you make this a line chart? Are you planning to do a trendline analysis or something?
Why do you believe that whether a geographical region is "liberal" or "conservative" boils down to who they chose for president?

# ? Jan 29, 2017 23:40

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

FRINGE posted:

I would point out that 30 years after your time there, the children of the Finnish cult have grown up, and grew up in rural Washington, and may well have become a part of what you are now seeing.

...I think I worked for one of them briefly. Ran his own business, had like 4-5 little Aryan sons, lived in BG, turbo-Finnish last name.

E: Also super Christian

# ? Jan 30, 2017 00:56

CaptainSarcastic: Jul 6, 2013

I remember using the PNWChatter on at least one BBS years before the Internet was a gleam in Al Gore's eye. It was so magical to be able to email someone in Alaska from my hometown in Oregon. Ah, nostalgia.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 01:00

glowing-fish: Feb 18, 2013; Keep grinding,
I hope you level up!

SyHopeful posted:

...I think I worked for one of them briefly. Ran his own business, had like 4-5 little Aryan sons, lived in BG, turbo-Finnish last name.

E: Also super Christian

Finns aren't Aryan. Finns aren't Indo-European. People in Stockholm and New Delhi are linguistically closer than people in Stockholm and Helsinki.

This might seem like a pedantic point, but it isn't. Someone with blond hair and blue eyes doesn't necessarily have the cultural attributes you might attribute to them.

Specifically, with Christianity, I think Finland was one of the less Christianized countries in Europe. Finns who are committed Christians are a minority. Unlike some "Evangelical Christians" in the United States, who basically want to recapture secular culture through such battles as coffee cups with "Merry Christmas" on them, Apostolic Lutherans should want to avoid secular culture. That makes for a big difference.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 02:04

beefnoodle: Aug 7, 2004; IGNORE ME! I'M JUST AN OLD WET RAG

Or you could have looked it up and seen that Finland is 75% Christian.

beefnoodle fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Jan 30, 2017

# ? Jan 30, 2017 02:08

Peachfart: Jan 21, 2017

anthonypants posted:

I will never understand the handwringing that occurs over electing a president. Here are some questions:
Why is it not surprising?
Why were Clark/Cowlitz/Lewis cherrypicked?
Why did you make this a line chart? Are you planning to do a trendline analysis or something?
Why do you believe that whether a geographical region is "liberal" or "conservative" boils down to who they chose for president?

He posted an interesting graph, why are you hassling him? Maybe just try to be nice for once.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 02:10

got any sevens: Feb 9, 2013; by Cyrano4747

glowing-fish posted:

Question for people who grew up in the Pacific Northwest, especially small towns:

For most of elementary school, I went to school in Battle Ground, Washington, which at the time was a small town (now it is a pretty ugly exurb). There were two African-American students (siblings) in my elementary school.
I remember learning about the civil rights movement, well, about Martin Luther King, over and over again, and I remember my teachers stressing that it was a good, heroic and pure thing. My memories of it seem to be that my teachers were quite genuine about it. As much as I can remember, I never remember hearing any type of racial slurs against blacks as a child, or hearing my parents or my friends parents say anything racist, no eye rolls or "those people". But there is a good chance that this was because I was like, 7 years old.

I was surprised in 2015, I was in Clark County and on three occasions I saw Confederate flags flying. Like, what happened to the area I grew up in, which seemed to be full of the most mild, polite people who generally thought being fair and respectful was important, that they changed so much? I am not saying everyone in areas like that is like that, but I have no idea where it came from.

Was this because I am just looking at my past through rose colored glasses, or did things really change?

I was a kid around Beaverton then a teen around Renton, never heard the n-word or anything like that, but didn't see many black kids either. My teachers were like yours. Maybe it's just a generational thing and we grew up during a calm era? Reagan was already screwing over minorities pretty hard so maybe the adults didn't need to vent their racism?

# ? Jan 30, 2017 02:12

HashtagGirlboss: Jan 4, 2005

got any sevens posted:

I was a kid around Beaverton then a teen around Renton, never heard the n-word or anything like that, but didn't see many black kids either. My teachers were like yours. Maybe it's just a generational thing and we grew up during a calm era? Reagan was already screwing over minorities pretty hard so maybe the adults didn't need to vent their racism?

Or you didn't notice because you didn't know what to look for. Do you remember being 12/13 and learning a new big word and then suddenly that word seemed to be in use everywhere? You had heard it plenty of times before but hadn't really noticed it.

HashtagGirlboss fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Jan 30, 2017

# ? Jan 30, 2017 02:34

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

glowing-fish posted:

Finns aren't Aryan. Finns aren't Indo-European. People in Stockholm and New Delhi are linguistically closer than people in Stockholm and Helsinki.

This might seem like a pedantic point,

You had me up to here, it was a throwaway comment, I know Finns aren't considered Aryan.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 04:24

glowing-fish: Feb 18, 2013; Keep grinding,
I hope you level up!

beefnoodle posted:

Or you could have looked it up and seen that Finland is 75% Christian.

I did indeed look it up, and while wikipedia articles are not ironclad truth,

quote:

The majority of Lutherans attend church only for special occasions like Christmas, Easter, weddings and funerals. The Lutheran Church estimates that approximately 2 percent of its members attend church services weekly. The average number of church visits per year by church members is approximately two.[8]

According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll (2010),[9]

33% of Finnish citizens "believe there is a God". (In 2005, the figure was 41%)
42% "believe there is some sort of spirit or life force". (In 2005, the figure was 41%)
22% "do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force". (In 2005, the figure was 16%)
According to Zuckerman (2005), 28-60% of Finns are agnostics, atheists, or non-believers.[10]

75% of Finns are members of the state church, but religious devotion is not high in Finland.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 04:41

glowing-fish: Feb 18, 2013; Keep grinding,
I hope you level up!

anthonypants posted:

I will never understand the handwringing that occurs over electing a president. Here are some questions:
Why is it not surprising?
Why were Clark/Cowlitz/Lewis cherrypicked?
Why did you make this a line chart? Are you planning to do a trendline analysis or something?
Why do you believe that whether a geographical region is "liberal" or "conservative" boils down to who they chose for president?

Hi, I have had you blocked for a while, but I saw these questions quoted in someone else's post. These are all fair questions. Let me answer them.

When I say "Washington became less Republican than the nation as a whole", I am saying that the chart showing this isn't a surprise, because this is information I already knew. The reasons for this change might be surprising. There is not a single reason why the Pacific Coast became more liberal/democratic over the past 30-40 years.

Why were those three counties cherry picked? There are 39 counties in Washington. Imagine that line graph with 41 lines on it. It would be muddy. I chose Cowlitz and Lewis to show that two counties that might share a lot of demographic similarities (similar populations, similar distance from metro centers, etc) can have different political preferences. Its not meant to explain everything, just contrasting how an area of SW Washington that people might lump together has different political cultures and patterns.

A line chart makes most sense for chronological information like this. I don't think a trendline analysis would make sense.

That is a leading question: I don't believe such a thing.
Information about presidential voting patterns is one of the most thorough, regular sources of political information we have. We could also use voting in gubernatorial elections, since that has a similar interval. I don't know where to find information on house elections, and Senate elections are less regular. I know that people's selection of presidential candidates doesn't say everything about an area. In this particular example, its especially misleading because I wouldn't say that Cowlitz County has become more "conservative" as much as Trump's populist approach appeals to them on a number of issues. I know that politics is not a linear scale. Its just the information that I have available is linear. Do you have any suggestions for any other information I could use to try to quantify something like political or social views?

I hope that answered your questions.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 04:56

Shifty Nipples: Apr 8, 2007

You can make graphs but it is just too hard to scroll past electronic words on the screen you don't like.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 05:01

glowing-fish: Feb 18, 2013; Keep grinding,
I hope you level up!

Peachfart posted:

He posted an interesting graph, why are you hassling him? Maybe just try to be nice for once.

For some reason, every time I post a graph because I think it is interesting (and while admitting that it might be based on incomplete data), there are three or four people who have to jump up and remind me that my data is not perfect.

And since data isn't perfect, the only thing we have left is opinion and narrative.

# ? Jan 30, 2017 05:04

coyo7e: Aug 23, 2007; by zen death robot

there's a space between "not perfect" and "an orangutan throwing crap at a wall and then his handler elaborating on why it's art". Blowfish is not "somewhere in the middle" of those two points - he's just a fuzzy monkey having fun throwing poo - and handling himself manfully

# ? Jan 30, 2017 05:14