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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:And regardless of how lovely the caste system is, ultimately you're arguing from a stance of cultural superiority here, aren't you? Yes, some cultures are better than others.
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Mar 12, 2014 01:25
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Tatum Girlparts posted:There are some cultures that are objectively wrong. A culture where a woman has decent odds of being raped as punishment if she reports a rape is most likely one of those. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a way to agree with this without being accused of White Man's Burden-ism (which is of course not a charge levied at anyone who wants to give medical technology to African nations) because it involved "cultural issues" -- but cultural and women's rights issues are no less serious, and are just as much a product of past colonialism and current capital ownership patterns as third-world poverty is. I define Imperialism in such a way that it requires some kind of economic or military benefit for the occupying nation, so I don't think that simply encouraging the abandonment and/or obliteration of certain social problems would even qualify as Imperialism from a Left perspective. OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Mar 12, 2014 |
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Mar 12, 2014 01:28
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Actually, to be honest the "Culture X is better than Culture Y" is problematic. There are certainly aspects of cultures which may be objectively worse but it's kind of dismissive to say that the entire culture of a region is fundamentally inferior. You see a similar issue elsewhere - for example, the classic "Islam is misogynistic" rant by Islamophobes. Islam as a religion is not misogynistic, much as India as a culture is not misogynistic, there are just those who fall under the given groups that are misogynistic, and that can be dealt with more directly.
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Mar 12, 2014 01:47
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India is probably about to elect Narendra Modi as Prime Minister. He's the BJP candidate and is putting up some pretty decent numbers. He was the chief minister of Gujarat, which had better growth than the rest of India, but mostly due to its improved infrastructure. Here's a decent Guardian run down of him. He comes with the good and bad. He is from a lower caste and worked himself up, which is a fairly encouraging story. If you want authoritarian state capitalism, this is your guy. He's very buddy buddy with the US Ambassador, and they've even endorsed him and promised to give him a visa. He's had a travel ban on him ever since he, uh, failed to act during some anti muslim riots in 2002. He understands the needs to modernize and reform India, calling for more toilets and less temples to be constructed, etc. From what I've read, seen, and talked to people, his biggest problem is that he's a true believer. He's never been married or had any children. He does not interact with the wealthy elite in Delhi and people are curious how he's going to get anything done. He accomplished things done in Gunjarat through intimidation, bribery, and coercion. He's a huge enemy of the press. Worst of all he probably oversaw massive anti muslim violence in the early 2000s, hates Muslims, and has flat out said something "needs to be done" about "muslim violence." I currently live in India and thought of making a thread about the splitting of Andra Pradesh and Telangana. Essentially the southern part of Andra Pradesh broke away finally and formed their own state, taking the capital of Hyderabad with them. In the most typical Indian solution to a problem ever, Hyderabad now serves as a joint capital until ten years from June 2nd when the new AP capital will be finished (lol yeah right). For the last few years, Telangana activists had been setting off the occasional bomb in HYD, and students liked to set themselves on fire. The official reasons for the new state are cultural. The Telangana were promised protection in 1955 for their language and culture that they claim they haven't received. Of course the real reason this went through Parliament is because Rahul Gandhi saw Modi in his rearview mirror and wanted to go ahead and make another voting block. In a way this is just really hardcore gerrymandering. Right before the vote went down Parliament was tense. Pro and Anti Telangana clashed daily. It came to a head when the vote neared, with pro Modi MPs starting a flat out fracas. Someone brought in a can of pepper spray and just opened up on everything, while another guy was arrested before he could set off an incendiary device (though that might just be a lie created by the congress party, no one can be sure). This was Times India's picture of the whole affair.  Anyway I'll be back but I have lots of things to say about Indian corruption, caste mentalities, the race to the bottom that is IT exporting, how most of the capital will be bailing to the Phillipines before long, the looming health disaster, etc. India is an interesting place. FizFashizzle fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Mar 12, 2014 |
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Mar 12, 2014 01:49
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computer parts posted:Actually, to be honest the "Culture X is better than Culture Y" is problematic. There are certainly aspects of cultures which may be objectively worse but it's kind of dismissive to say that the entire culture of a region is fundamentally inferior. Islam is not misogynistic but, say, the current culture in Saudi Arabia is, and as a culture that oppresses people systematically it's inferior to one that provides equal rights and protection. I don't see the problem in making the statement specific. I agree 'Islam is misogynistic' is a wrong thing to say but in the other case I'm talking about a specific place that I don't think anyone can argue isn't misogynistic? Like, if we all agree misogyny is bad, and a culture where a woman is in more danger seeking help for her rape than not is bad, why can't we say 'so it'd be better if that wasn't how things were there'?
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Mar 12, 2014 01:50
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computer parts posted:Actually, to be honest the "Culture X is better than Culture Y" is problematic. There are certainly aspects of cultures which may be objectively worse but it's kind of dismissive to say that the entire culture of a region is fundamentally inferior. You couldn't say that Islam is misogynistic, but you could say that KSA has a lovely misogynistic culture. You couldn't say that Christians are racists but you could say that the American South has a lovely racist culture. e:beaten
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Mar 12, 2014 01:55
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Miltank posted:You couldn't say that Islam is misogynistic All Abrahamic religions are misogynistic, not just Islam.
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Mar 12, 2014 01:59
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actually every culture on earth is misogynistic to a degree so whatever.
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Mar 12, 2014 02:04
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Islam is not misogynistic but, say, the current culture in Saudi Arabia is, and as a culture that oppresses people systematically it's inferior to one that provides equal rights and protection. I don't see the problem in making the statement specific. I agree 'Islam is misogynistic' is a wrong thing to say but in the other case I'm talking about a specific place that I don't think anyone can argue isn't misogynistic? I think the problem is that what you're going for is that part of the culture that is misogynistic or perpetrates misgyny like for the example the analogue you made with a female sexual assualt victim seeking help while I think the notion he was going for that the culture as whole(everything from history, language, cuisine etc.) can't collectively be decided as being inferior, no one here is arguing that the misogyno perpetrated in that specific culture is somehow better than a more equal culture. Edit: Miltank posted:actually every culture on earth is misogynistic to a degree so whatever. Indeed and it isn't so much who is better but who's less worse in that regard.
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Mar 12, 2014 02:08
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Doc Neutral posted:I think the problem is that what you're going for is that part of the culture that is misogynistic or perpetrates misgyny like for the example the analogue you made with a female sexual assualt victim seeking help while I think the notion he was going for that the culture as whole(everything from history, language, cuisine etc.) can't collectively be decided as being inferior, no one here is arguing that the misogyno perpetrated in that specific culture is somehow better than a more equal culture. Obviously we can't change history, and there's no reason I can think of to change cuisine or even language (except in some very rural areas) so it's pretty clear people are talking about backwards religious and cultural practices with respect to women's position in society when they say there's problems with Indian culture. Doc Neutral posted:Indeed and it isn't so much who is better but who's less worse in that regard. Of course, and almost everyone here sees cases like Steubenville and realizes that "Western" culture has a long way to go, and India's problems aren't an excuse for our own. But this thread is about the specific mix of problems that hold India back.
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Mar 12, 2014 02:11
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Obviously we can't change history, and there's no reason I can think of to change cuisine or even language (except in some very rural areas) so it's pretty clear people are talking about backwards religious and cultural practices with respect to women's position in society when they say there's problems with Indian culture. You seem to have misunderstood me, what I meant was that stupid backwards rear end poo poo needs to change but like computer parts said earlier that when you start saying "X culture is inferior/superior to Y culture" it may signal some alarms as it's the same type of rhethoric spewn by colonialism apologists/whiteman burden, that and lately I've had to dealt with some really annoying islamophobes(the ones who thinks guys like Roberts Spencer are telling the truth) which is why I get my eye twitching when I read something along those lines. P.S. One interesting thing is that they'll argue for women rights when it suits them but as soon as someone mentions feminism they almost instantly put their MRA-fedoras on. Sorry for the derail btw.
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Mar 12, 2014 02:51
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Can we agree that raping people, burning widows and throwing bodies into a sacred river is bad? Because if so, the culture that doesn't endorse those things is superior.
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Mar 12, 2014 03:53
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Frosted Flake posted:Can we agree that raping people, burning widows and throwing bodies into a sacred river is bad? What exactly does a culture have to do in order to endorse an action?
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Mar 12, 2014 03:55
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computer parts posted:What exactly does a culture have to do in order to endorse an action? I don't know what exactly, but there is a point somewhere where throwing a corpse in the Hudson river is not okay, and burning widows in Central Park would not be a popular custom.
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Mar 12, 2014 03:59
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Frosted Flake posted:I don't know what exactly, but there is a point somewhere where throwing a corpse in the Hudson river is not okay, and burning widows in Central Park would not be a popular custom. Anti-vaccination is popular in some parts of this country, would you say American culture endorses it?
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Mar 12, 2014 04:01
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computer parts posted:Anti-vaccination is popular in some parts of this country, would you say American culture endorses it? I think it's a very fringe viewpoint here and doesn't make a large impact in most cases, not that it shouldn't be addressed. According to this survey it looks as though only 39% of Indian women think real changes need to be made to address gender equality issues -- most think everything is as it should be. Keep in mind that the poll in India was "disproportionately urban" so I don't relish the thought of what people in the countryside have to say.  Look how well even China is doing by comparison, despite its litany of well known problems. India is Africa-tier when it comes to this stuff. OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Mar 12, 2014 |
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Mar 12, 2014 04:06
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meristem posted:Well, yes, obviously. The loss of tradition is the price of change. Western countries also had to go through their 1960s. And, 50 years later, conservatives stil bemoan the loss of traditional family values. You're cheerfully assuming that poor women are too dumb to see that you're trying to threaten a family system that, if disrupted, would result in them being cut off from both their children and their only material way of supporting themselves Traditional family structures do not propagate themselves because their proponents are simply waiting for a Westerner to peel the scales off their eyes through sufficiently progressive Bollywood movies, they propagate themselves because the senior members of the family must pass it on to the next generation or lose everything
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Mar 12, 2014 04:29
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ronya posted:Traditional family structures do not propagate themselves because their proponents are simply waiting for a Westerner to peel the scales off their eyes through sufficiently progressive Bollywood movies, they propagate themselves because the senior members of the family must pass it on to the next generation or lose everything Which is why the economic structure must be changed so that they have other options for themselves and their children, because simply removing the family structure and not replacing it with anything leaves them in no better position; similarly just addressing economic issues will not in the short term fix the social ones (though I think it would over three or four generations). I can see an argument for creating a good social safety net, resources for women, and better housing and healthcare guarantees before conducting an all-out assault on "traditional values" as they relate to women's empowerment so they aren't left high and dry when the backlash from their parents, husbands, and religious leaders occurs -- they will absolutely fight back when losing influence, as the Soviets saw in Afghanistan. OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Mar 12, 2014 |
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Mar 12, 2014 04:31
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computer parts posted:Anti-vaccination is popular in some parts of this country, would you say American culture endorses it? Yeah, I'd agree with that.
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Mar 12, 2014 04:38
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Wanamingo posted:Yeah, I'd agree with that. Likewise, and I think everyone who wants change in India would also support addressing the vaccine. Personally I'd suppress any and all anti-vaccination literature as threats to public health and make vaccinations mandatory, regardless of parental consent, but that's just me.
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Mar 12, 2014 04:41
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Which is why the economic structure must be changed so that they have other options for themselves and their children, because simply removing the family structure and not replacing it with anything leaves them in no better position; similarly just addressing economic issues will not in the short term fix the social ones (though I think it would over three or four generations). I can see an argument for creating a good social safety net, resources for women, and better housing and healthcare guarantees before conducting an all-out assault on "traditional values" as they relate to women's empowerment so they aren't left high and dry when the backlash from their parents, husbands, and religious leaders occurs -- they will absolutely fight back when losing influence, as the Soviets saw in Afghanistan. this would be a good idea: traditional families serve as social-insurance-cum-retail/investment-banking, so it is important to offer alternatives before displacing their material role, or you will be making lives worse off and thus generating a lot of opposition your challenge now is enforcing this on the Indian villages and countryside. It would be a mistake to assume that women's empowerment is only opposed by non-women: if you are a family matriarch, you would almost certainly derive your material quality of life from treating your daughters-in-law as indentured servants, just as you yourself were once an indentured servant to your mother-in-law. Dismantling this web of intergenerational privileges requires a staggering degree of bureaucratic machinery: you would need some reliable individual ID, some way of providing personal banking so that women don't just have their savings coerced from them by family members, some way of acculturating some sufficiently Westernized police force within these areas, some way of getting such rural forces to reliably answer to central oversight instead of local authorities, etc. And doing all that without something like, say, electricity.
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Mar 12, 2014 04:47
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computer parts posted:Anti-vaccination is popular in some parts of this country, would you say American culture endorses it? The government, for the most part, do not give them power. Remind me who in India leadership is saying hey maybe we should clean this major water source that looks more like a sewage overflow?
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Mar 12, 2014 04:50
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Look, even if you would like to blame the evil British for all India's problems, making excuses for India for cultural reasons is seriously hosed up. Compare the culture of Britain and India today and you'll see a lot of problems that can't be explained away with Imperialism or Capitalism.
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Mar 12, 2014 04:52
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I don't even know how this is arguable. America is hosed up but if I ever said "yo my cousin said she got raped, we should rape her as a village as punishment" I'd like, if not go to jail at least be told I'm an idiot and ignored. A place where I'd be agreed with has something objectively worse about it. I'm not sayin every Indian is a rapist, or even rape is an inherent part of the culture, I'm sayin what is going on now is the wrong thing.
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Mar 12, 2014 04:59
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The problem regarding the water pollution is not "we believe in a polluted Ganges". It's the much more familiar "I blame those other guys, and those other guys should bear all the costs for cleaning up the Ganges". This is compounded by a great deal of mysticism regarding the alleged self-cleaning properties of the Ganges, which lends itself to a great deal of conspiracism and motivated distrust in official judgements. Diverting sewerage from rivers requires shutting down e.g. illegal slaughterhouses and distilleries, whose workers will instead blame the chemical plants far away, whose workers will instead blame the... etc. And a massive amount of corruption and weak oversight in actually implementing any proposed sewerage diversion, treatment plants, concrete embankments, etc.
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Mar 12, 2014 04:59
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I don't even know how this is arguable. America is hosed up but if I ever said "yo my cousin said she got raped, we should rape her as a village as punishment" I'd like, if not go to jail at least be told I'm an idiot and ignored. A place where I'd be agreed with has something objectively worse about it. I'm not sayin every Indian is a rapist, or even rape is an inherent part of the culture, I'm sayin what is going on now is the wrong thing. these norms are typical to all clan-based traditional societies everywhere
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Mar 12, 2014 05:02
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Well so what?
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Mar 12, 2014 05:04
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yes. those societies are bad and should change.
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Mar 12, 2014 05:05
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Wanamingo posted:Well so what? ... so there are material factors behind the cultural treatment of women? If you want to see gang rape as punishment in the West, you don't have to go very far. Try the projects. They're not inherent to the culture, they will re-emerge promptly whenever the material conditions reappear. It's not something you can 'fix' by spamming them with Westernized media and values.
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Mar 12, 2014 05:10
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Yep and I feel safe saying they are all objectively wrong and backwards in that regard.
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Mar 12, 2014 05:10
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Wanamingo posted:Well so what? Miltank posted:those societies are bad and should change.
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Mar 12, 2014 05:12
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ronya posted:... so there are material factors behind the cultural treatment of women? If you want to see gang rape as punishment in the West, you don't have to go very far. Try the projects. They're not inherent to the culture, they will re-emerge promptly whenever the material conditions reappear. It's not something you can 'fix' by spamming them with Westernized media and values. And we have a standard in civilized societies where if you gang rape a lady you're mad at, you're probably going to jail. The places where village leaders are allowed to sanction it as just punishment for a woman are the ones who need to join the modern world.
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Mar 12, 2014 05:13
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I'm not denying gang rape exists here, I'm saying the mayor of poo poo Creek Idaho isn't allowed to sentence a woman to it because she had an affair.
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Mar 12, 2014 05:15
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ronya posted:They're not inherent to the culture, they will re-emerge promptly whenever the material conditions reappear. It's not something you can 'fix' by spamming them with Westernized media and values. This is easy to see with the Eastern Bloc; as soon as social welfare collapsed, privatization took over, and a new culture of cutthroat competition emerged people started reverting to some very ugly practices and ideas. There's also been a very strong negative correlation between superstitious/religious social conservatism and material wealth at least in Europe and East Asia, but we won't know if the trend will continue in Africa, South Asia and the Middle East until they stop being so miserably poor and dysfunctional. You sound like a Marxist here, Ronya, but I guess this is just well supported from every angle.
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Mar 12, 2014 05:17
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Tatum Girlparts posted:And we have a standard in civilized societies where if you gang rape a lady you're mad at, you're probably going to jail. The places where village leaders are allowed to sanction it as just punishment for a woman are the ones who need to join the modern world. If a capital city of the developed West cannot reliably detect and attack such urban subcultural compromises on the state's monopoly on the use of force, how do you do it in rural India? And how do you propose to subordinate every village, every panchayat to the Westernized secular way of life in the cities, given that - this being India instead of the West - the rural villagers outnumber you? And have the national populist mythos of the Gandhian revolution and the self-determining sovereign village behind them?
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Mar 12, 2014 05:20
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It seems a rather circular argument unless India dramatically changes economically, at a certain level, it is material. To be honest, if I had to bet, I don't think it is going to change and Westerns will condemn Indian culture when it fact there isn't any realistic way to change it. State capitalism requires capital, and there is a honest question of where it is come from at this point especially if for a variety of reasons it isn't allocated in a efficient manner.
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Mar 12, 2014 05:22
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Sounding like a broken record here, but aggressively attracting manufacturing and IT services, lowering wages but making up for it with food, housing, education and medical subsidies. That way you'd both raise the level of capital within India while also improving living standards.
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Mar 12, 2014 05:24
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Serious answer, education and long term reform being placed as a priority to urbanize more of the nation and allow for a more strong central government with less autonomy for village elders. More snarky but not totally joking answer, bet if you started hanging elders who pulled poo poo like that you'd see a drop.
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Mar 12, 2014 05:24
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ronya posted:And how do you propose to subordinate every village, every panchayat to the Westernized secular way of life in the cities, given that - this being India instead of the West - the rural villagers outnumber you? And have the national populist mythos of the Gandhian revolution and the self-determining sovereign village behind them? Lots of leaders have handled similar situations, though they often needed to be harsh when the situation called for it. And the rural population won't outnumber the urban for much longer.
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Mar 12, 2014 05:25
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Ardennes posted:It seems a rather circular argument unless India dramatically changes economically, at a certain level, it is material. To be honest, if I had to bet, I don't think it is going to change and Westerns will condemn Indian culture when it fact there isn't any realistic way to change it. All the big software/accounting firms are already looking to move away from India as well. Things are going to get much worse before they get any better.
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Mar 12, 2014 05:26
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