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So I have a 1991 Toyota Soarer (UZZ32) which was almost certainly originally sold with R12. Toyota only fitted R134a to 1994+ models. It needs a new condensor. It currently has R134a push-on type fittings which look to be as old as the car. I have a new condenser, new receiver/drier, some cans of Dust-Off, and all the equipment necessary to use it. The system is still sealed with an unknown refrigerant and is holding pressure. What kind oil should I use and how much will I need to replace? This is the question which has been on my mind for the last few days and I'm still not sure how to figure out the correct answer. Compressors are no longer available and unique to this cars very limited production run. I doubt I'll ever find one on anywhere other than from a breaker. I don't really want to cock it up. I also have another 1991 UZZ32 which was made a few weeks earlier, which has R12 screw-on fittings and an otherwise identical looking AC system. I also don't know the charging weight, but I was just going to look up whatever a SC400 uses and convert as required.
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Jul 30, 2015 15:19
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CommieGIR posted:Hoping its R152, since that is what I am going for, and most of them have switched to R152 due to the cost of R134 (and there is some new laws regulating the use/disposal of R134) I've just been through this for myself. R152 is difluoroethylene. R134 is tetrafluoroethylene. It always seems to be written on the label. Dust-Off is difluoroethylene, so just grab some Dust-Off form Walmart. Both are available in air duster form, so you shouldn't have too much legal trouble if you buy it as duster.
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Jul 30, 2015 19:14
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PBCrunch posted:1995 Lexus SC400 total system capacity: 1.65 pounds of R-134a, 4.8 ounces of ND-8 (or equivalent) oil. Thanks man, I have no idea if it's got R12 or R134 in it right now, or the type of oil. Thanks for the charging weights. Hilariously I bought a Denso SC400 condenser from ebay US (£125 including postage to the UK!) because it was cheaper than a genuine Toyota one (and there are no aftermarket Soarer ones). The UZZ32 has slight differences to pretty much every engine ancillary, including the AC compressor (it has a long leg at the back for attachment, and a different front mounting to work with the huge timing plate). I have two Soarers (had 3 at one point), all active UZZ32's, and run a project log on my facebook page for all the poo poo they put me through (a lot). I can make a thread here if there's any interest? They are pretty unique cars. I bought a cheap (£15) can tap from Amazon. It didn't have a built in schrader valve though, and was noticeably cheaper built than the Mastercool ones which appear in all the Youtube videos. $30 sounds about right - you won't find them much cheaper. Here's a pic of the current fleet, on the day the green one made it home:  (that lovely gold Lexus badge was gone within 15 minutes) Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 20:48
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mafoose posted:You could take it to a shop that has testing equipment to figure out what refrigerant is in the car. Thanks, knowing all the shops around here, they will take one look and tell me it's R134a, then try to sell me R134a. Judging by the fittings, it probably is filled with R134a, because who changes the fittings and then puts illegal R12 back in? My issue is whether the system was flushed and the oil replaced, and if so, with what kind of oil. I don't know what oil is in there, what oil is good for the compressor (I assume ester oil for aR12 compressor?), or what oil works well with R152. I will need to go to a shop anyway to have the refrigerant recovered.
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Jul 31, 2015 09:52
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some texas redneck posted:Denso is the OEM for most Toyota parts (including compressors), and at one time, was even owned by them. Nah, it's my condensor that's bad (all the fins have rotten off, even though it still holds pressure). The compressors are no longer available anywhere, I'd be pretty hosed if I broke mine - the current solution to broken UZZ32 compressors is to buy a SC400 one and make a frankenpressor with its internals, using the '32 ends, but then you're into the world of shims and plate thickness on several components and it's pot luck whether you'll get the thing to work or not. And yes, pretty much everything in the car has Denso or Aisin written on it somewhere  .Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Aug 1, 2015 |
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Aug 1, 2015 06:54
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Motronic posted:Also, to the "I don't know what's in there" people: you already know what you need to do but are looking for a shortcut. There isn't one. Recover, flush, start from the beginning. You're right. Damnit.
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Aug 1, 2015 17:57
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Take the car to an AC place and ask them to remove the refrigerant. You won't get it back. They will assume it is R12 or R134 depending on valve type/label under hood and charge you accordingly. No point removing your own R12 with the intention of putting it back in the car as you will lose some during the two transfers, and will need to get more from ~somwehere~. You will also contaminate it with the air in the container you use to temporarily hold it (you can never pull a perfect vacuum). This is probably different too the US where I believe you can still purchase R12. Edit: Nice car. 3000GT/GTO's are on my 'must buy' list. Facelift model for me, though.
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Aug 1, 2015 21:46
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So I finally took Motronics advice from last year and replaced my condenser. Anyone know if this is still good to use? Just wondering if the replacement was necessary...  
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Aug 4, 2015 05:05
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0toShifty posted:I have several things here: Sell the R12 for thousands of dollars and put R134 in the car.
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Aug 6, 2015 15:39
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(I actually have the EPA cert)
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I found some on eBay, they are just short lengths of hose with the correct fitting on each end. Something like this: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...2316076759.html The easier/cheaper solution may be to get R134a adapters for the R12 system in the car instead. They are just fittings which screw over the end of your old R12 ports. I had to remove the schrader on the low-side to fit mine (not a problem if there's no refrigerant in the system). edit: in fact, the item I linked to is just a set of R12 to R12 fittings, with a R134a adapter screwed onto the male end. Hah.
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Aug 9, 2015 21:46
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Another crosspost with the mechanical failure thread  I have successfully diagnosed my AC error code:       
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Aug 10, 2015 19:30
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mafoose posted:Doesn't water from the vents mean evaporator freezing? Which means low refrigerant? Could also mean moisture in the system causing the evaporator to freeze. Could also be a leaking heater core. Any unusual sounds from the compressor? Does it turn smoothly by hand? Is there a sight glass near the receiver-dryer/accumulator? The compressor no longer coming on isn't a bad sign - it could just be a cut-off due to low pressure. My compressor didn't come on as Toyota fitted a speed sensor to the compressor, to detect when it has jammed. Usually it's a pressure cut-off. Best bet is to buy a set of manifold gauges and check your own pressures. Plastic coming from the vents will be unrelated to the AC system itself. Could be a piece from inside the heater/AC box. My car can sense when the internal doors/flaps are not working, and will not run the system. Perhaps yours is the same, and something is stuck inside.
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Aug 11, 2015 11:46
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The car will either have an expansion valve and receiver/dryer, or an orifice tube and receiver. Sometimes, the accumulator or receiver will have a sight glass on it. Sometime it won't. The fact that the compressor spins freely is a good sign for the overall health of the system, but there's still a good chance that you are low on refrigerant. Seconding the need for a manifold gauge here to see what the issue is. These aren't expensive if you buy second hand, and are useful to have around, as they will work on 99% of all car AC systems.
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Aug 11, 2015 23:05
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I'm currently removing the entire AC system and throwing it in the garbage. I'll get replacement parts from a junkyard. A whole car may be cheaper, so I may end up doing that instead.
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Aug 13, 2015 00:55
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Moisture in the system can cause the evaporator to freeze after a few minutes which will reduce its cooling ability (ice is an insulator), but yeah if you're getting hot air (rather than outside-temp air) then it's probably your blend door rather than the AC itself. The whole 'recharge it and see!! $$$' philosophy at most shop really pisses me off.
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Aug 15, 2015 22:02
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If your '90s Denso compressor is like my '90s Denso compressor, replacing the shaft seal is a bitch to do without damaging it. The main o-rings should be easy to find though. Be careful not to damage the shaft seal when replacing the front housing.
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Aug 19, 2015 23:38
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Any reason why you used esther oil and not PAG-46? I'm planning to regas my old R12 system after replacing every single freaking component, and was wondering which oil to use. There would still be some mineral oil residue in the replacement (junkyard) parts, but I don't think it matters?
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Aug 21, 2015 19:44
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I've just read up on it, apparently it's compatible with everything and you can also get it with some anti acid/corrosion additives, which considering my history with BLACK DEATH is probably not a bad thing to have. My bottle of PAG oil has some milky white swirls in it and is of questionable age. I'm gonna go ahead and assume it's moisture contaminated and not use it. In other news: Last week I filled my receiver/drier with the correct amount of PAG oil (I didn't have my manifold gauges with me at the time), vaccd the system and found it leaking slowly. I haven't touched it since (been waiting for UV dye to turn up, it just did). Is the drier now garbage? They aren't cheap. But neither is a compressor, so.... have I just answered my own question, or am I being over cautious?
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Aug 21, 2015 20:18
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Well, yeah, but what is the deal if you vac the system and it doesn't hold vacuum? Replace the drier with each vacuum attempt?CommieGIR posted:I'm gonna say its worth it if you don't know how clean the system is or are worried. Good to know. I've just bought a bottle of Supercool branded ester oil which looks like it's from the US (as usual, good poo poo like this is almost impossible to find in the UK). You can get with with UV dye added, wish I'd done that before spending £££ on some dye sachets! Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Aug 21, 2015 |
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Aug 21, 2015 21:34
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Holy poo poo why did I not think of this. My dumb move was to replace the drier before checking for leaks. Why the hell didn't I just check for leaks using the old drier. On the plus side, I can put this drier in my other black-deathed car, and use it to leak test (pretty sure I can't vacuum a system with a new components but an old drier full of black death).
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Aug 21, 2015 21:46
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Well, I mean, it's been full of air for about a week, but that air got in through (I presume) a tiny opening (it takes over an hour for the vacuum to disappear), and it's most likely the same air with the same moisture.
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Aug 21, 2015 22:15
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Well, it's had 1atm of air in it for a while, and there is a leak somewhere to the atmosphere. So the desiccant has certainly absorbed some moisture, the question is, is it still good 
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Aug 21, 2015 22:39
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Drier is less than a 2 minute swap and costs around $50, so.....
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Aug 21, 2015 23:45
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You could do what I've had to do and just replace every freaking component in there. That way you don't need to worry about previous oils!
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Sep 4, 2015 01:40
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So a few weeks back I rebuilt my AC compressor and squirted 80ml of PAG46 oil in there before putting it back in the car. Vacced the system and it didn't hold for more than 5 minutes. Now it's a few weeks later and I pulled the same compressor to drain the oil out and put ester oil in instead (and leave whatever small film of PAG is still there). The PAG oil was clear when I put it in and was bright freaking neon green when it came out. Why?
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Sep 6, 2015 18:47
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I thought about that, but I stripped and cleaned each component with brake cleaner, then with isopropyl alcohol, then dipped them in PAG46 before assembly. Could this be from moisture? The system was not open, but the vacuum I pulled did bleed back to atmospheric pressure, so the system was full of air (but I couldn't see it easily cycling fresh air and moisture in and out through such a small leak) edit: my current plan is to dump 80ccs of ester oil into the compressor, fit my new condenser, vac the system, fix the leaks, replace the drier, squirt 60ccs of ester oil into the drier, charge and use the system. Is there an easy method of leak detection which doesn't involve wasting a can of refrigerant? Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Sep 6, 2015 |
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Sep 6, 2015 18:56
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No, thats the strange thing. It looks exactly like UV dye but I never put any in.
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Sep 7, 2015 10:56
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I thought all R12 high side fittings were the same, especially on a 1993 vehicle (which was right near the end of the R12 era). Any set of conversion adapters should work. Most adapters require you to remove the schrader valve from the low-side fitting - the supplied low-side adapter should have one fitted. At least, that's how it's been with every one I've ever purchased.
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Sep 10, 2015 22:20
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scuz posted:Bitchin. Just so I can run this by someone else, this is my shopping list: This is what I replaced on mine to get rid of the black death. I pulled my parts from a junkyard, and said 'complete AC system' so I took the hoses as well. Hoses should be flushable though. My evaporator has a little pressure valve attached that communicates with the expansion valve, no way to flush that without a pressurised system, I guess, so the evaporator got changed as well. Also it has many tubes running in parallel so meh.
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Oct 1, 2015 13:41
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If you apply 12v (and ground) directly to the coil, does it stick the pulley to the input shaft of the compressor? If so, clutch is good. If not, clutch is bad. These are often shimmed to leave a suitable gap when the coil is not energised, and yours may need adjusting due to age.
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Oct 9, 2015 18:47
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IOwnCalculus posted:Yeah, I was spinning the center of it (engine was off, belt was stationary). It was also not noticeably warm, which I would've expected if the compressor had suddenly seized with the clutch trying to engage. My compressor siezed while running and yes, the clutch got very warm (ended up stripping the friction material rather than slipping on the belt!). Spinning the centre (input shaft) should feel pretty smooth, maybe a bit lumpy depending on design. The pulley should, of course, spin freely with no belt installed. I often used straightened paperclips pushed into the back of plugs, past the rubber seals for when I want to put power or probes in somewhere. If the whole thing is buried or if the back end is sealed then you're out of luck on that. I'm betting that the clutch is on the male end of the plug so you can't just unplug it and stick wires into it. If you know where the clutch relay is, then I'd just hit pin 87 (on your diagram) with 12v and see if the clutch clicks in and out.
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Oct 9, 2015 19:03
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I think the general consensus is that ester oil is compatible with any remaining mineral oil and is compatible with all of the popular refrigerants. I would just pour out the old oil from the compressor, and replace with the same amount of ester oil, then replace the drier and add the required amount of ester oil for a drier replacement (on my toyota, it's 20ml, for example). Edit: It's not as sensitive to moisture as PAG oil is, either. And then charge with R152, yes. Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Oct 10, 2015 |
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Oct 10, 2015 02:32
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Enourmo posted:Yeah I know about the duster thing, and i guess parts stores carry ester oil? I was more thinking if he flips the car it might drive potential buyers away to know it's a nonstandard refrigerant that few if any shops could service. It will almost certainly be cheaper in the long run to 'convert', especially when you ask 'where has the old R12 gone?'. If he has a slow leak, then putting expensive, harmful R12 into the car isn't good for anyone. R152 and R134a are similar enough that any shop could swap between them, and I believe you may even be able to run a mix. FYI, R152 is difluoroethylene and R134a is tetrafluoroethylene. Make sure that if you buy air duster, that the warning labels says 'contains difluoroethylene'. I know that the 'Dust Off' brand of duster contains it. The 'retrofit kit' will be him buying some screw-on R143a fittings, a bottle of ester oil, and a side can tap + manifold gauges. You don't need to open the system (which would necessitate drier replacement), you can just add ester oil on top of the mineral oil.
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Oct 10, 2015 08:46
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You may need to add a little extra oil to cover the amount to that was inside the old drier when you replaced it. The manufacturer usually specifies this amount. It may be more than you think, as the oil soaks into the dessicant bag. As you said, the difference in oil quantity between the old and new compressor is due to the old compressor oil being distributed around the system.
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Oct 18, 2015 09:15
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Car is a 1991 Toyota Soarer. So a while back I posted pictures of my black deathed compressor, and mentioned that I'd be changing out the entire loving AC system (thanks Toyota). I've been away with work since pretty much then until now. I've recently stumbled upon a unicorn compressor for my unicorn car, and have also purchased everything else needed to swap out the whole system. The big question is - How much oil do I put in there, and where do I put it? I have purchased:
So, as far as I can tell, there is next to zero oil in the system. I need to know how much to add, and to where. I will be charging the system with R152 and use Ester oil with a UV dye. I have currently poured 40ml of ester oil directly into the compressor, all over the swash plate, through the revolution detection sensor hole, to keep things lubricated inside there. The SC400 has an almost identical system, with slightly longer hoses to account for the evaporator being on the other side of the car. The SC400 specifies a charge weight of 850g +- 50g (29.92oz +- 1.76oz). The service manual lists the following:
I guess what I need to know is the total quantity of oil that would be used in a similar sized/age/style system. Also knowing when/where to add it would be useful. Can I just work out that I need x amount of oil then dump it all in the drier? Can I spray it all into the low side as I charge the system? Should I shove x amount into each component before installation?
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Nov 15, 2015 21:10
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Thanks for the info. My high side port is on the condenser and the low side is on the compressor, so I shouldn't manage to vac it back out. The 800-850 was refrigerant charge in grams, not oil. I estimate about 100-120ml of oil in the system, since that's what many new compressors seem to come with (thanks, Denso!), and I imagine that oil isn't added anywhere else in the factory. I was going to put 60ml in the compressor and the rest (80ml I guess) in the drier. As long as I'm not going to gently caress up the compressor (they are hard as poo poo to find, I had to break an otherwise-running car to get this one), I'm sure it will be fine. Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 23:08
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How safe is it to vacuum down a system with an old receiver/drier that probably has some black death inside it? I'm hesitant to change the receiver/drier only to find that I have a leak and have to change it again (at $100 per unit).
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Dec 1, 2015 13:22
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I've already replaced the rest of the system with non-black-deathed components. I guess I could attempt to flush the receiver/drier to use one time for vacuuming, but I'm not sure how much of the flushing material will sit in the silica gel bag.
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Dec 1, 2015 13:57
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I was trying to work out how much driers cost for the RX8, as I am planning to remove the compressor on mine. It turns out the drier is part of the loving condenser, and is non-replaceable, meaning I have to scrap the whole condenser every time I open the system. What the gently caress, Mazda?!
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May 2, 2016 11:33
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I'm gonna remove the compressor and leave it out for a few months. Suggestions? Bag the hoses with PVC tape and vac the poo poo out of it when I come to reinstall?
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May 2, 2016 17:49
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