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Your Computer
Oct 3, 2008




Grimey Drawer
Someone should probably make a Bitwig thread, I'm sensing there will be some discussing to do about it, In fact, I have a question right now; have there been any info on version pricing?
It would be nice to know more about that before purchasing, since they may potentially require you to (almost) buy the program again each update if they decide to be assholes..


e: look at me posting about a DAW on this new page of the synthesizers thread :v:


vvv I mean for future versions. It would suck if you had to pay hundreds of euros every update (2.0, 3.0 etc.) vvv

Your Computer fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Mar 26, 2014

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Flipperwaldt
Nov 11, 2011

Won't somebody think of the starving hamsters in China?



Laserjet 4P posted:

I thought the plugin sandboxing was supposed to prevent that?
That would prevent crashing plugins from bringing Bitwig down with them, not Bitwig crashing of its own accord.


So, tying into the earlier discussion we had about this; can anyone confirm if it needs Java installed or not?

e:

Your Computer posted:

have there been any info on version pricing?
This was in a mail I got from them a few weeks ago:
Box: USD 399.99 / 329 EUR
Download: USD 399 / 299 EUR

Flipperwaldt fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Mar 26, 2014

renderful
Mar 24, 2003

You'll love me, I promise.
From what I understand, the UI is Java. The About window in Bitwig shows the Java version, so I'd say it is required. That being said, the UI is very smooth in response and rendering.




So far, I am impressed. I just got some incredibly alive/moving polysynth tones using the built in polysynth, LFO, blur effect and frequency shifter. The ability to openly map LFOs within the built in devices is super intuitive and powerful. Although, while doing so, Bitwig is using 21% of my CPU with only 1 channel and the synth/effects/control chain I've described. This has lead to some audio glitches while switching apps. My work computer is a 2008 Macbook, but Ableton's audio engine is far more tolerant of low performance, although when you consider that I'm doing modulation things that would usually require Max4Live(which takes A LOT of resources compared to vanilla Ableton) I can let it off the hook.

I imagine that optimization will occur in short order, and that most people will be using better machines than this one. Even so, I can imagine myself using the demo to export audio. Even though I can't save, I can patch up some really interesting instruments/effects chains immediately and record them directly into Live or whatever.

What's also interesting is that each new track starts off with its volume fader at half, rather than almost full. This could lead to more headroom being the rule rather than the exception.

renderful fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Mar 26, 2014

Sizone
Sep 13, 2007

by LadyAmbien
Just got a jx-3p and a pg200 for 50$. Both look like they've been through a war. Does the 3p suffer from the same voice chip problems as the 106?

edit: never mind. cracking the thing open has revealed that the voices are -painfully- discreet. Gonna recap it, clean it and maybe get an oscilloscope and tune it.

Sizone fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Mar 27, 2014

Tan Dumplord
Mar 9, 2005

by FactsAreUseless

Sizone posted:

cracking the thing open has revealed that the voices are -painfully- discreet.

They do their best to avoid arousing suspicion. They'll never give up your secrets.

Dotcom Jillionaire
Jul 19, 2006

Social distortion
don't forget about doing a kiwi-3p mod! i'm raising the funds to buy one now.

MJP
Jun 17, 2007

Are you looking at me Senpai?

Grimey Drawer
Korg Triton Pro at a local Sam Ash for $450... worth it as a digital piano replacement if I want synth functionality and 88 keys, no weighted action?

Or a Yamaha S08 with a stand, case, and pedals for $500 on Craigslist... that's really, really tempting. 88 keys, weighted, an actual synth... ergh. I'm really tempted to take the plunge so I can at least still have piano feel.

Digi_Kraken
Sep 4, 2011

MJP posted:

Korg Triton Pro at a local Sam Ash for $450... worth it as a digital piano replacement if I want synth functionality and 88 keys, no weighted action?

Or a Yamaha S08 with a stand, case, and pedals for $500 on Craigslist... that's really, really tempting. 88 keys, weighted, an actual synth... ergh. I'm really tempted to take the plunge so I can at least still have piano feel.

I bought a P-105 Yamaha digital piano, 88 eighted keys, for about 600$

It's USB so you can obviously sync it with any digital synths you have, plus you have the advantage of also having a piano.

MJP
Jun 17, 2007

Are you looking at me Senpai?

Grimey Drawer

Griff Lee posted:

I bought a P-105 Yamaha digital piano, 88 eighted keys, for about 600$

It's USB so you can obviously sync it with any digital synths you have, plus you have the advantage of also having a piano.

Yeah, I currently have a Casio PX-130 that I got last July for $300 on Craigslist. A friend of mine said she'd buy it at that price whenever I want to sell it, and I don't have a laptop to bring into the living room for use as a DAW. I tried DAWing and it's just too drat much for me right now. I just want to futz and it's easier to do with knobs. The PX also has USB, as does the S08.

Only downside is that I'd have to buy speakers, but I have decent headphones I can use until then.

Dotcom Jillionaire
Jul 19, 2006

Social distortion
I'm playing around with the OSX demo of Bitwig. I really like what i'm seeing. This project has come a long long way from what I saw years ago (when it was being touted as the "Linux DAW").

Their polysynth has some great built in presets. I like how you can see the waveforms modulating in real time like an oscilloscope. Very quick UI rendering too.

Having both the arranger view ala Logic and the clip view ala Ableton helps me compose and bounce portions of a track rather quickly. For some reason when using Ableton my mind switches into a different gear and I treat clips differently than I would an arrangement. Being able to quickly swap between bottom views (piano roll, device parameters, etc) helps the workflow a great deal too.

Next tests will be to see how it handles tracking and recording in from my interface and how effects sound on a recorded clip of audio. I might actually buy a license for this thing!

renderful
Mar 24, 2003

You'll love me, I promise.
I'm really hot for a few features: Feedback FX(effects hosted in the feedback path of the delay), Tank FX(effects hosted inside the reverb tank of the verb) and the Unified Modulation System. There are some absolutely insane possibilities that are super easy to access. It has lead me to try things that I'd not have tried before due to them being very hard.

Your Computer
Oct 3, 2008




Grimey Drawer
I reaaally don't feel like being in charge of a thread, but someone please make a Bitwig thread! It seems there is enough interest on this forum (between the synth thread and the ableton thread) to have a nice thread! (The KVR forum is a friggin cesspool)

Oldstench
Jun 29, 2007

Let's talk about where you're going.
Pretty sick Richard... http://vimeo.com/90236532

ziasquinn
Jan 1, 2006

Fallen Rib
That's sick I wanna be Richard Devine.

I like that he explains it all too, real nice.

net work error
Feb 26, 2011

It sounds cool but at least for me, being able to see the patch and have him describe what's going on behind the scenes to actually make it all happen makes it waaaaay cooler.

WAFFLEHOUND
Apr 26, 2007
I don't know how much crossover there is, but I've got some stuff up for sale on muffs, including a Euro case and a Monotribe.

Also, has anyone here got on opinion on the state of the Maschine in the post-Push era?

ejstheman
Feb 11, 2004

renderful posted:

effects hosted inside the reverb tank of the verb

I'm not sure I understand what this means. Is it an effect on the wet signal, prior to the dry/wet knob in the reverb's interface?

ExiledTinkerer
Nov 4, 2009
A bit tangential as it was in the old thread, but still interesting and chock full of history, so here's part 2 of the big Impulse Tracker Post-Mortem and Story Time with Jeffrey Lim with probably more devs due to come outta the woodwork again to respond same as with Part 1:

http://roartindon.blogspot.com/2014/03/20-years-of-impulse-tracker-part-2.html

long-ass nips Diane
Dec 13, 2010

Breathe.


My Maschine is still really nice, works better in Maschine than it does in Ableton. I would buy the Push if you're into using Ableton a lot. Mapping the Maschine pads and knobs has kinda been a pain in the rear end in Ableton, I have to redo it a lot and I don't know if that's my error or some sort of weird Ableton thing.

edit: If you want midi in/out the Push doesn't have it but the Maschine does.

long-ass nips Diane fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Mar 28, 2014

Flanky
Jun 2, 2011
So is finding a Virus TI second-hand a rare thing? I've never bought a hardware synth before, but I got bitten by the bug to get one a few months back and the feeling hasn't gone away. Can't seem to ever see any for sale on the websites of local music shops (I live near-ish to Tokyo, btw). It's probably a good sign that no one wants to sell them...

Also it's not a synthesizer per se, but I got a 25-key Novation SL MKII MIDI Keyboard last week. I thought 25 keys would be sufficient, since I'm not a pianist and my apartment is tiny, but man is it small. The automap stuff is cool as heck though. I'm toying with just keeping the 25 and buying one of those cheap no-frills 49 or 61-key knobless controllers. At the price I bought the 25SL for it might as well be a Zero SL that takes up a little more desk space.


I'm at work so I can't look the link up now, but check out a YouTube channel called "SadowickProduction" maybe. The guy uses both pieces of hardware with Ableton, and he's done a bunch of videos comparing the two.

Militant Lesbian
Oct 3, 2002

Flanky posted:

So is finding a Virus TI second-hand a rare thing? I've never bought a hardware synth before, but I got bitten by the bug to get one a few months back and the feeling hasn't gone away. Can't seem to ever see any for sale on the websites of local music shops (I live near-ish to Tokyo, btw). It's probably a good sign that no one wants to sell them...

I highlighted your issue above. The company that makes the Virus, Access, is German - they're slightly uncommon even in the US, but in Japan they're going to be rarer than a unicorn, just like any electronics product from outside Japan. You'll probably be flooded with cheaper than normal vintage Rolands, Korgs, and Yamahas though.

Flanky
Jun 2, 2011

HotCanadianChick posted:

I highlighted your issue above. The company that makes the Virus, Access, is German - they're slightly uncommon even in the US, but in Japan they're going to be rarer than a unicorn, just like any electronics product from outside Japan. You'll probably be flooded with cheaper than normal vintage Rolands, Korgs, and Yamahas though.

Bummer, makes sense. Maybe I just buy a Snow or something in a few months.

WAFFLEHOUND
Apr 26, 2007
I'm not sure either of us would jump to do this but in theory I could bring you one in a couple of weeks if you wanted to do a proxy fee or something.

Digi_Kraken
Sep 4, 2011

Flanky posted:

Bummer, makes sense. Maybe I just buy a Snow or something in a few months.

Buy me a 303 while you're there :3:

Flanky
Jun 2, 2011

WAFFLEHOUND posted:

I'm not sure either of us would jump to do this but in theory I could bring you one in a couple of weeks if you wanted to do a proxy fee or something.

Oh sick! I'd have to think about it + make sure my finances are in order first, as I'm not sure I'm willing to swing it unless it's used.

Griff Lee posted:

Buy me a 303 while you're there :3:

Actually just saw one when I shopping last weekend :P Was 200,000 JPY / about $2000 USD? Doesn't seem particularly low after a cursory glance on the internet, actually.

WAFFLEHOUND
Apr 26, 2007

Flanky posted:

Oh sick! I'd have to think about it + make sure my finances are in order first, as I'm not sure I'm willing to swing it unless it's used.

If you've got paypal you could have it sent to me and I could bring it over. I know that's a shitload to trust to a goon but I've sold several thousand worth of gemstones on SA and most of this thread knows my real name and such.

Flanky
Jun 2, 2011

WAFFLEHOUND posted:

If you've got paypal you could have it sent to me and I could bring it over. I know that's a shitload to trust to a goon but I've sold several thousand worth of gemstones on SA and most of this thread knows my real name and such.

Cool. Do you have PMs? I don't yet but could get in touch with you that way in the future if I decide to go for it.

renderful
Mar 24, 2003

You'll love me, I promise.

ejstheman posted:

I'm not sure I understand what this means. Is it an effect on the wet signal, prior to the dry/wet knob in the reverb's interface?

I believe so, and on that same note they have a bunch of effects that have Wet FX that do the same thing.

breaks
May 12, 2001

The TankFX is on the wet signal and gets fed back into the reverb's input (uh - I think it actually gets fed back into the input of the late reflection stage). There is also a WetFX is that goes straight to the output without feedback.

WAFFLEHOUND
Apr 26, 2007

Flanky posted:

Cool. Do you have PMs? I don't yet but could get in touch with you that way in the future if I decide to go for it.

I do, yeah.

Flipperwaldt
Nov 11, 2011

Won't somebody think of the starving hamsters in China?



ExiledTinkerer posted:

A bit tangential as it was in the old thread, but still interesting and chock full of history, so here's part 2 of the big Impulse Tracker Post-Mortem and Story Time with Jeffrey Lim with probably more devs due to come outta the woodwork again to respond same as with Part 1:

http://roartindon.blogspot.com/2014/03/20-years-of-impulse-tracker-part-2.html
As someone who for about three years on average put three hours a day in Impulse Tracker, this is mighty interesting and I hope you keep posting whenever an update on it comes out.

toadee
Aug 16, 2003

North American Turtle Boy Love Association

Flipperwaldt posted:

As someone who for about three years on average put three hours a day in Impulse Tracker, this is mighty interesting and I hope you keep posting whenever an update on it comes out.

Same here! I think there were at least two years of high school where I did nothing but IT and play Wipeout XL.

ExiledTinkerer
Nov 4, 2009
I'll definitely do so---I've learned quite a lot from The Thread thus far, so what strange bits I can contribute back in turn definitely need to be a thing.

ashgromnies
Jun 19, 2004

renderful posted:

From what I understand, the UI is Java. The About window in Bitwig shows the Java version, so I'd say it is required. That being said, the UI is very smooth in response and rendering.




So far, I am impressed. I just got some incredibly alive/moving polysynth tones using the built in polysynth, LFO, blur effect and frequency shifter. The ability to openly map LFOs within the built in devices is super intuitive and powerful. Although, while doing so, Bitwig is using 21% of my CPU with only 1 channel and the synth/effects/control chain I've described. This has lead to some audio glitches while switching apps. My work computer is a 2008 Macbook, but Ableton's audio engine is far more tolerant of low performance, although when you consider that I'm doing modulation things that would usually require Max4Live(which takes A LOT of resources compared to vanilla Ableton) I can let it off the hook.

I imagine that optimization will occur in short order, and that most people will be using better machines than this one. Even so, I can imagine myself using the demo to export audio. Even though I can't save, I can patch up some really interesting instruments/effects chains immediately and record them directly into Live or whatever.

What's also interesting is that each new track starts off with its volume fader at half, rather than almost full. This could lead to more headroom being the rule rather than the exception.

I've gotten three different answers on whether having more headroom in digital recording is good or not. I'm so confused. Mixing thread was like "uhh headroom doesn't matter in digital" but in the home recording thread it was recommended to record to -6dB

ashgromnies
Jun 19, 2004

Maschine is about the software more than the controller. I start most of my tracks in Maschine as loops then use Ableton for arrangement, mixing, FX automation. Though I also do preliminary mixing and some FX in Maschine. It's easier to draw a filter cutoff envelope opening over 4 bars or whatever in Live than Maschine, seeing visual envelopes is nice. FX automation is based on quantized discrete values in Maschine as opposed to a continuous envelope like in Live, meaning you've got to specify the level at each step independently.

I really like the new drum synths in Maschine 2.0.

Your Computer
Oct 3, 2008




Grimey Drawer

ashgromnies posted:

I've gotten three different answers on whether having more headroom in digital recording is good or not. I'm so confused. Mixing thread was like "uhh headroom doesn't matter in digital" but in the home recording thread it was recommended to record to -6dB

I don't really know much about this, but I do know that in Ableton the audio will clip considerably if your signal is over 0. As far as I see it, the reason to never have the signal go above 0 is to avoid clipping, though I guess in digital it CAN be irrelevant (but as I said, in Ableton it certainly isn't).

Digi_Kraken
Sep 4, 2011

ashgromnies posted:

I've gotten three different answers on whether having more headroom in digital recording is good or not. I'm so confused. Mixing thread was like "uhh headroom doesn't matter in digital" but in the home recording thread it was recommended to record to -6dB

I just make sure it never peaks above 0, but when I was starting out, I had a similar problem - I was so afraid of being too loud I was making it too quiet!

renderful
Mar 24, 2003

You'll love me, I promise.

ashgromnies posted:

I've gotten three different answers on whether having more headroom in digital recording is good or not. I'm so confused. Mixing thread was like "uhh headroom doesn't matter in digital" but in the home recording thread it was recommended to record to -6dB

When I discuss headroom, I am talking about the control that I have over dynamic range. If your channels are at full volume, then the amount of dynamic range that you can possibly put onto each track is limited. I like to mix around -6 because I can keep it quiet if that's what is needed musically, and if I need to push it louder, that's also possible. Signal to noise ration is also a huge thing to consider. Recording that low with a horrible signal to noise ratio, when perhaps recording older gear, will leave you with takes that must be processed for noise in order be made louder. When it comes to digital audio, the signal to noise ratio is quite good, however.

This a good discussion and video of the topics revolving this domain(watching it again myself, as a refresher): http://www.analogindustries.com/b1848/The+Depths+Of+My+Bits+And+The+Rates+Of+My+Samples/

The video itself is great, and as Chris says: "if you're a musician that records digital audio, you owe it to yourself to spend a half hour watching this."

They get into some discussion about headroom on page 4 of the comments section.

renderful fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Mar 28, 2014

Radiapathy
Dec 3, 2011

Snooping as usual, I see.

ashgromnies posted:

I've gotten three different answers on whether having more headroom in digital recording is good or not. I'm so confused. Mixing thread was like "uhh headroom doesn't matter in digital" but in the home recording thread it was recommended to record to -6dB
Yes, headroom matters in digital, but it's tied to bit depth, although even at lowish bit depths you still have more headroom than traditional analog systems afforded. Most DAWs seem to default to 24-bit, which is better than CDs (which are 16-bit), and suitable for most people and purposes.

When you're talking about "recording to -6dB", do you mean when tracking individual parts, or mixing, or mastering?

When I'm tracking, I try to record as loud as I can without clipping, the idea being that I like to have my source material as loud as possible, so I can mix by cutting rather than boosting. If the material's dynamic, like vocals, I try to dial it in so that I don't notice anything going in over -4dB.

I also bus everything (vocals bus, drums bus, synths bus), and when mixing, I usually start with each group bus at around -12 to -18dB (when mixed together the combined result's much louder), and when my mixing stage is done, it's usually peaking at around -4 to -6dB.

At mastering stage I drive it all the way up to about -0.3db. By that point all my peaks are already under control, compression's doing its job, and I'm just trying to get the highest reliable volume, because my car stereo's not that loud.


Your Computer posted:

I don't really know much about this, but I do know that in Ableton the audio will clip considerably if your signal is over 0. As far as I see it, the reason to never have the signal go above 0 is to avoid clipping, though I guess in digital it CAN be irrelevant (but as I said, in Ableton it certainly isn't).
True digital 0dB is the clipping point for all digital recording; you can't go over it- when you hit zero you're dead. I've read that some DAWs either lie about peaks or engage some built-in soft-clipping to let users push their signals harder than they should, but if your metering is accurate, you should never touch zero.

Something I've noticed about Live is that when you use the Normalize option when rendering audio (which just raises the overall volume of the track until the highest peak in the song reaches zero), the rendered track almost always clips, if you analyze it in Audacity or WaveLab. I don't know what Ableton's doing there, but when I use Live these days I'll just aim for a mastered final that's as high as I'm comfortable with in Live, and then just normalize the WAV to -0.3dB in WaveLab after that.

*** Also, an unrelated question ***
So, I'm making some demo tracks of these rack synths I'm going to sell, and I would like to have automation control over the filters (and have found it a fool's errand to try to do this via SysEx on a modern system), so I'm thinking about relying on filter plugins instead of the synths' native filters, giving me total control over cutoff and resonance during playback.

The thing is, the synths' built-in filters offer key tracking, whereas most standalone filters don't. So unless your synth part is just a single note repeating through the whole song, you need a way to adjust cutoff as the music changes. So, I've been looking for filters that DO offer key tracking, which would let me route the MIDI from my synth parts to the filter.

None of the filters I currently own support this option. It looks like these filters do have it: Cytomic's The Drop, Waves MetaFilter, and FabFilter Volcano 2.

Anyone have experience with these plugs? Ever use 'em for key tracking?

Or any other suggestions on how to simulate automation on these old rack synths?

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renderful
Mar 24, 2003

You'll love me, I promise.
The Drop definitely has it, and is an incredible set of filter circuit models. It's still in beta, but the release beta release is totally usable and the full release sounds like it will be soon.

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