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Eastern Europe: Korean War II, Ukraine the Reckoning.
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Sep 3, 2014 20:46
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eigenstate posted:Eastern Europe: no news, all Clancychat. I like this one.
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Sep 3, 2014 20:52
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This talk about Germans being "self serving cowards" to quote a poster: 1) Every country acts in a self-serving way. If you believe otherwise, you are a naive childe. The nature of agreements are to a) coordinate incentives or b) penalize noncommitment. This is what will happen - and beyond that each country will ultimately try to get theirs. THIS INCLUDES ALL THE COUNTRIES IN BOTH NORTH AND SOUTH OF THE EU. If you do not understand this and think that Germany has some god given moral obligation to do this and that, you live in a literal dreamworld, as no government, except by pure incompetency or mistake, has ever done something out of goodness of heart. That is not their job. This does not preclude fruitful cooperation of course, but if the government fails to act accordingly, they are not doing their job and will be voted out of office. 2) Given the history, given the politics, given the geopolitical situation, you should not be surprised that Germany has a small army comparable to other countries. For twenty plus years, there has been literally no threat at all - not even in the slightest. At the same time you need to realize that the question if ANY German soldier should EVER step on foreign soil again was a debate for years in the country. The question to take part in in aggressive action, even for a good cause, is still not entirely resolved politically. Given these two facts, the logical conclusion for any politican is that a big army is nothing but a waste of money. The idea that Germany actually has to take its soldiers somewhere else and try to do some good and it is not wrong just by principle is an entirely novel one. 3) Besides all that, all major parties and the vast majority of Germans are pro-European. The public opinion of Russia is very low. In case of an actual attack of Russia on the EU, the rage in Germany would be incredible. Pacifistic as I am, I can not believe otherwise but that in case of such an attack, Germany would immediately declare war on Russia, and act on it. Given the political climate, everything else seems really unlikely to me. Believe what you like, but all major organizations and all major parties and politicans have staked their existence on continuation of the European Union. Boner Slam fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 21:02
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Eastern Europe - Putin: "I did not have sexual relations with that seperatist" On the news front: A gas station got blown up east of Donetsk <-- UA commandoes or something trying to slow the russkies down? Ukrainian PM Yatsenyuk Rejects Putin's Proposal for Ceasefire Plan No water in Donetsk Russian artillery shelled #Pervomaisk and #Popasnaya <--A fair bit north of Luhansk so maybe that's how far the lines have moved.
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Sep 3, 2014 21:03
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My uncle in Kiev says there are guys who are joining up with volunteer battalions because at least that way they'll be getting quality helmets/bulletproof vests, thanks to the efforts of volunteers and donations. If they're called up to serve in the regular army who knows what kind ancient/outdated/lovely equipment they will get.
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Sep 3, 2014 21:14
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Eastern Europe - Putin: "Like Stealing Candy From an Oligarch." Edit: Eastern Europe - "Homonazi Junta," Yes That Was an Actual Thing Kristov fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 21:16
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Eastern Europe - "Wow all these people really hate each other"
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Sep 3, 2014 21:21
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Eastern Europe: All jokes aside, thousands are being slaughtered for Putin's personal gain and people are praising him for it while admonishing the victims
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Sep 3, 2014 21:23
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Eastern Europe - Putin: *sob* "I Learned It From Watching You, OK!"
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Sep 3, 2014 21:28
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Ukraine is apparently talking about reinforcing the border with Russia, in a project named "The Wall". http://www.hromadske.tv/politics/ukrayina-pochinaye-proekt--stina--na-kordoni-z-ros/
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Sep 3, 2014 21:32
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McDowell posted:Aren't the Mistrals of questionable utility to Russia anyway? I read somewhere that they are best suited for international anti terror/piracy operations. They are mobile headquarters, even without armament they still have the SENIT 9 command & control suite (though without the link 11/16/22 NATO communication modules of course). Another thing they can do without armament is humanitarian mission. There's a huge hospital inside, and the hangars can be used to shelter refugees. The lead ship of the class was actually used to evacuate ~1700 people from Lebanon in 2006, and repatriate ~5000 Egyptians refugees in 2011.   Now does it look like Russia could have a use for humanitarian or "humanitarian" missions? #convoy pigdog posted:I don't disagree, but have to admit the French also have a point saying why do they need to bear the burden of cancelling a billion dollar contract, when the rest of Europe keeps lining Putin's pocket with gas money and can't come to terms about any sort of sanctions. Especially rich when criticisms about the Mistral deal came from Cameron who was simultaneously busy exporting rockets, bullets, and sniper rifles to Russia.
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Sep 3, 2014 21:37
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Eastern Europe: This is not a thread about Eastern Europe
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Sep 3, 2014 21:54
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So this map updated: http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/kot_ivanov/71733898/29229/29229_original.jpg No huge changes compared to the old one: http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/kot_ivanov/71733898/28043/28043_original.jpg But of interest is the addition of that blue border some ways back. Not quite sure what it means though. Just the traditional extent of the Donetsk region? The white stripes over red shows areas that neither side controls but both may be operating in. The western "pocket" is pretty loose.
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Sep 3, 2014 21:58
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Pimpmust posted:So this map updated: It matches up with the western border of Donetsk and Lugansk Oblast e: Also looks like the rebels have intruded into Zaporizhia Oblast which wasn't a theatre before as far as I remember? Zohar fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 22:00
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Eastern Europe: Russian soldiers are all dying in training exercises, no war here.
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Sep 3, 2014 22:05
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Eastern Europe: Looks like it's The Ukraine again
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Sep 3, 2014 22:12
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Pimpmust posted:So this map updated: This map refers to Ukrainian forces as fascists, junta and ethnic cleansing squads. There's no references to the Russian army from my brief skimming. There's a sentence about how a Ukrainian plane was shot down as it was lining up to bomb a factory. In other words, I would not trust this map at all.
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Sep 3, 2014 22:31
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I would trust it more than the Ukrainian map, it has been more accurate.
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Sep 3, 2014 22:33
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Eastern Europe: Putin's Slavic Squat on EU's Face
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Sep 3, 2014 23:07
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Eastern Europe: We know squat
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Sep 3, 2014 23:09
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Cat Mattress posted:Good idea. Let's cancel the deal, blah blah blah. France should just tell Russia to get hosed. BUT NO!!! we might have to pay a fine??? What is the lives of childern worth? No much apparently. You got to be loving kidding me. Edit: If only Ukraine had a Numlock fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 23:29
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Eastern Europe - Putin's Manifest Destiny
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Sep 3, 2014 23:47
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Eastern Europe - Eastern Europe Never Changes.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:56
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Baloogan posted:Eastern Europe - Eastern Europe Never Changes. Very nice. That one. Or the Clancychat one.
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Sep 4, 2014 00:07
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Discendo Vox posted:Eastern Europe: We know squat ThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThisThis
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Sep 4, 2014 00:07
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Donetsk Ask Donetsk Tell
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Sep 4, 2014 00:08
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Numlock posted:France should just tell Russia to get hosed. I'm kind of amazed that this is surprising to you. This isn't exactly a new attitude in the history of international relations.
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Sep 4, 2014 00:23
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Numlock posted:France should just tell Russia to get hosed. do you have no understanding of what contracts are and how important they are to how our society functions?
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Sep 4, 2014 00:39
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Numlock posted:France should just tell Russia to get hosed. I don't know how many children have been killed by unfinished warships, but I bet it's less than those killed by British rockets, bullets, and rifles.
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Sep 4, 2014 00:45
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Agrajag posted:do you have no understanding of what contracts are and how important they are to how our society functions? Contracts are important. Respecting the borders of neighboring nations vis-a-vis military action is also important. I feel strange making that comparison since it was made in the very post you responded to, and you completely glossed over. Cat Mattress posted:I don't know how many children have been killed by unfinished warships, but I bet it's less than those killed by British rockets, bullets, and rifles. Most unfired weapons haven't killed anyone. But that's what they're for, and when you sell them to people, you can be pretty sure that's how they're going to be used. Especially in the context of the current situation, is your point that it's all okay because they haven't been used to kill anyone yet? Because that seems to be what you're hanging your post on.
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Sep 4, 2014 01:14
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Maybe the French can deliver the ships then sink them later that night, Rainbow Warrior style. A contract is a contract after all.
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Sep 4, 2014 01:18
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PhilippAchtel posted:Most unfired weapons haven't killed anyone. But that's what they're for, and when you sell them to people, you can be pretty sure that's how they're going to be used. Especially in the context of the current situation, is your point that it's all okay because they haven't been used to kill anyone yet? Because that seems to be what you're hanging your post on. My point was that while everybody was reporting on and complaining about the Mistrals, nobody really seemed to care about Britain exporting arms and military equipment to Russia while Cameron was claiming that an arm export from Britain was "unthinkable".
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Sep 4, 2014 01:23
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eigenstate posted:Eastern Europe: no news, all Clancychat. This one gets my vote too.  because it describes the thread perfectly
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Sep 4, 2014 01:57
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Imagine 4 spheres of influence on the edge of a cliff.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:04
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PhilippAchtel posted:Contracts are important. Respecting the borders of neighboring nations vis-a-vis military action is also important. I feel strange making that comparison since it was made in the very post you responded to, and you completely glossed over. Since when have defense contractors given a poo poo about anything but the bottom line? Hollande did the right thing by saying that they couldn't send the warship right now, but he's going to pay for it politically.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:10
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katlington posted:Imagine 4 spheres of influence on the edge of a cliff. 
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Sep 4, 2014 02:10
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katlington posted:Imagine 4 spheres of influence on the edge of a cliff. Ahahahahaaaaaa, well done. This needs to be it.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:17
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Russia works the same way.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:27
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Majorian posted:Since when have defense contractors given a poo poo about anything but the bottom line? Hollande did the right thing by saying that they couldn't send the warship right now, but he's going to pay for it politically. Okay, but let's not confuse is and ought. A major thread of conversation has become, "Yeah, Russia militarism is bad, bit what are you gonna do  "Part of the answer is certainly don't sell them weapons. Throwing up your hands and saying "We're bound by contract" is a pretty poor excuse. Western European governments won't do anything other than hem and haw because they have business interests to protect, but it's still pretty shameful (not to godwin, but especially coming from a nation with a recent history like France) and it's completely fair to call them out.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:38
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PhilippAchtel posted:Okay, but let's not confuse is and ought. A major thread of conversation has become, "Yeah, Russia militarism is bad, bit what are you gonna do It's a little more complicated than you're portraying it, though. Vice, surprisingly, had a good piece on it a couple months ago: quote:In addition, the French shipbuilding industry has been floundering, and European shipbuilding in general has seen a lot reorganizations, restructuring, acquisitions, and mergers over the last decade. Currently, the company responsible for building the ship is STX France; 33 percent of the company is owned by the French government, which is trying to keep the company afloat. Last month, the Korean owners of the remaining 66 percent stake announced their intention to sell their portion. Considering that the entire French shipbuilding industry averages about $1.4 billion in commercial orders and $2 billion in military orders per year, a hit of more than $1.7 billion would be devastating. So it's hard for me to condemn Hollande too much on taking a couple months to basically put the kibosh on the deal. The guy is politically hosed enough as it is; there was no obvious solution to this problem that wasn't going to gently caress him even more.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:53
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