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Even if every single case of autism was caused by vaccines, they would still be worth it. This can be shown by simply looking at the eradication of smallpox. Smallpox alone killed over two million people each year. If the antivax movement managed to curtail the rollout of that vaccine, we would have never eradicated it and would still experience these sorts of outbreaks, if not on larger scales due to the huge increase in world travel since the eradication. The total world number of severely disabiling cases of autism is around 1-1.5 million per year. But a diagnosis of autism, even severe, is not the same as a death from smallpox. This doesn't even begin to take into account the disfigurement caused by the tens of millions of infections per year caused by smallpox.
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Mar 26, 2014 22:20
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Obviously, the whole autism thing is bunk, but the logic the anti-vaxxers use on it is at least sound. If in a hypothetical world vaccines did cause autism in x percent of cases, and your chance of catching the disease that you're being vaccinated again is y, where y is much much less than x, not getting yourself/your child vaccinated could be entirely rational. It just depends on the relative risks. You don't not cross the road because there's a risk of getting hit by a car, it's just how much risk you think is worth taking.
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Mar 26, 2014 22:34
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CottonWolf posted:Obviously, the whole autism thing is bunk, but the logic the anti-vaxxers use on it is sound. If in a hypothetical world vaccines did cause autism in x percent of cases, and your chance of catching the disease that you're being vaccinated again is y, where y is much much less than x, not getting yourself/your child vaccinated could be entirely rational. It just depends on the relative risks. You don't not cross the road because there's a risk of getting hit by a car, it's just how much risk you think is worth taking. Yeah, and if my aunt had a dick, she More seriously, I heard that NPR was going to have a story on this afternoon about what things during pregnancy now appear the most likely culprits for causing autism, though I wasn't able to catch the story itself. Not that it'd matter a whit to your standard anti-vaxxer, of course, but the rest of us might benefit from it. Captain_Maclaine fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Mar 26, 2014 |
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Mar 26, 2014 22:40
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Except the logic doesn't make sense. You have to make the assumption that your child will not catch one of those diseases, based on the fact one of the underlying reasons why their child has not caught that disease is because of an extensive and well-thought-out program of vaccination. Once again, we've largely conquered a problem, and idiots think that there never was a problem. This kind of thinking is dangerous, and is one of the reasons why those diseases are coming back.
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Mar 26, 2014 22:41
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CottonWolf posted:Obviously, the whole autism thing is bunk, but the logic the anti-vaxxers use on it is at least sound. That's not logic though. These diseases are very real and their transmission vectors are known. This is in contrast to the unproven (honestly I would say disproven) link between vaccines and autism.
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Mar 26, 2014 22:48
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Yeah, and if my aunt had a dick, she There has been some noise made about the oxytocin used to induce labor might correlate with autism later in life. I'll try to dig up an article or something when I get home but frankly it doesn't pass the smell test and there a lot of confounding factors to consider. You don't induce labor "just because" being the biggest one. In the meantime, pity the poor ob/gyn and the likelihood we could see lawsuits out of this.
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Mar 26, 2014 22:49
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Rhandhali posted:There has been some noise made about the oxytocin used to induce labor might correlate with autism later in life. I'll try to dig up an article or something when I get home but frankly it doesn't pass the smell test and there a lot of confounding factors to consider. You don't induce labor "just because" being the biggest one. In the meantime, pity the poor ob/gyn and the likelihood we could see lawsuits out of this. The teaser I heard for the story implied that it was something during fetal development well before birth, so I'd suspect they were talking about something else. Suppose sooner or later they'll have it up on their site and I can confirm.
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Mar 26, 2014 22:52
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I routinely verbally abuse anyone I see that says they don't "believe" in vaccinations.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:10
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SedanChair posted:That's not logic though. These diseases are very real and their transmission vectors are known. This is in contrast to the unproven (honestly I would say disproven) link between vaccines and autism. It's based on faulty premises, sure. But it does make sense. Ddraig posted:Except the logic doesn't make sense. You have to make the assumption that your child will not catch one of those diseases, based on the fact one of the underlying reasons why their child has not caught that disease is because of an extensive and well-thought-out program of vaccination. It's a standard public goods problem in that regard. There's a costly payment that benefits other people as much as you, which you can not pay and still get the same benefits. Then when enough people who don't pay the cost arise, it all collapses. You'd expect uptake to be cyclical for exactly the reasons you point out, the further out you are from the risks, the less real they feel. If everyone started dying of smallpox (which obviously isn't going to happen, but you get the point), you can bet everyone would be queuing for vaccination sharpish.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:11
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We can bypass the "a lot of people dying of mumps" step by just getting the loving vaccine, though? Not to mention that if these diseases do come back, they may come back in a form that the current vaccine is useless against, meaning all those people who were largely free of those diseases might now start dying en masse again thanks to idiots.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:15
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Ddraig posted:We can bypass the "a lot of people dying of mumps" step by just getting the loving vaccine, though? Well yeah, but they're not going to get the vaccine because they mistakenly believe that it's not safe. And ultimately there's not much you can do about that except legally mandating them to get the vaccine. I don't think that would fly politically even here in the UK, so I can only imagine how badly it would go over in the US. Edit: As I'm unconvinced the people who believe that it's not safe are going to listen to reason when people say that it is.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:18
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CottonWolf posted:It's based on faulty premises, sure. But it does make sense. Beliefs based on faulty premises don't get to make sense.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:20
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SedanChair posted:Beliefs based on faulty premises don't get to make sense. But equally, you can't expect people to act in ways that are inconsistent with their beliefs. Sure, it's dumb, but it's not really their fault. It's the media's for peddling and reporting the lies in the first place.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:24
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Zeroisanumber posted:The same could be said of measles, but we still vaccinate for measles. This was a little further back, but I wanted to quote this because it's casual dismissal of a disease coming from someone who actually supports vaccinations. Why is that relevant? The measles killed over 120,000 people in 2012 alone. As a result of vaccination programs, that number's actually a massive drop in deaths from what it was in 2000. It used to kill half a million a year, not through lethality but by infecting huge numbers of people. We live in a vaccinated society, and thus we have the ability to joke about things like the measles when that disease just killed several hundred people in the time this thread has existed. I'm not trying to criticize the particular poster, I just thought it was a fascinating example of how even we who support vaccinations can sometimes lose perspective on how ridiculously dangerous some of these things used to be.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:28
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CottonWolf posted:Well yeah, but they're not going to get the vaccine because they mistakenly believe that it's not safe. And ultimately there's not much you can do about that except legally mandating them to get the vaccine. I don't think that would fly politically even here in the UK, so I can only imagine how badly it would go over in the US. Which is the reason "consciousness" objections for vaccination should be eliminated immediately. If a child is medically cleared to get a vaccine, which means they don't have any of a number of vanishingly rare conditions, then that child gets the vaccine, full stop.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:34
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Ah! Found the story I mentioned earlier. quote:Brain tissue taken from children who died and also happened to have autism revealed patches of disorganization in the cortex, a thin sheet of cells that's critical for learning and memory, researchers report in the New England Journal of Medicine. Tissue samples from children without autism didn't have those characteristic patches. Sounds like this is something other than what you were thinking of, Rhandhali, since that suggests the roots of autism lie well before labor and birth.
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Mar 27, 2014 00:34
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Ah! Found the story I mentioned earlier. I hadn't seen that one before. I believe I was thinking of this study; it was certainly making the rounds a few months ago.
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Mar 27, 2014 00:50
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I'm on mobile but I saw a study a few months ago that said women who took heavy doses of Tylenol during pregnancy had a way higher percentage of autistic children.
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Mar 27, 2014 01:29
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Kids wouldn't get autism if we stopped vaccinating them in the womb  But seriously though, there are billions of humans alive right now, what's the percentage of the total population that has autism? It's just so stupid that parents don't realized THEY themselves were vaccinated, their own parents and grandparents were vaccinated, and they were fine. Why is it that much more modern vaccines are suddenly much more dangerous for their precious babies than the vaccines they and their own parents received? I also got chicken pox when I was an adult in Mexico, and it sucked rear end. What makes it worse is that now I carry the virus and I could potentially develop shingles. I didn't get the pox vaccine as a kid because my mother couldn't deal with me panicking in the hospital, running around and hitting the doctors and nurses who would try to restrain me to give me the shots. I don't know what other vaccines I might still be missing, and my mother doesn't remember. Chido fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 01:58
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Tigntink posted:I'm on mobile but I saw a study a few months ago that said women who took heavy doses of Tylenol during pregnancy had a way higher percentage of autistic children. You'll need to find it and cite it, sounds like hoakum at first pass. We have good reasons and numbers to support a strong genetic link.
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Mar 27, 2014 01:59
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http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/10/24/ije.dyt183.abstractquote:
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Mar 27, 2014 02:57
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Cache Cab posted:why would I pump my kids full of inorganic substances? I stopped consuming inorganic substances months ago, and my goiters have never looked more pendulous! Edit: As for the rise in autisim cases... I would bet all my money on the fact that heeeey, science finds reasons and puts new labels on things as it progresses. 500 years ago you wouldn't have been called autistic because no one had named it yet. You would have been called the village idiot. Or 'Your Highness'. Tasty_Crayon fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 04:02
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Tasty_Crayon posted:I stopped consuming inorganic substances months ago, and my goiters have never looked more pendulous! Me too. I feel tired all the time, though...
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Mar 27, 2014 04:22
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PT6A posted:Me too. I feel tired all the time, though... Put these crystals between your toes and commune with your spirit guardian in the morning.
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Mar 27, 2014 04:26
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Tasty_Crayon posted:Put these crystals between your toes and commune with your spirit guardian in the morning. Your chi is out of whack, better go visit your chiropractor.
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Mar 27, 2014 04:29
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This article has nothing to do with autism.
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Mar 27, 2014 04:29
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Tasty_Crayon posted:Or 'Your Highness'. Yeth, peathant? / 
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Mar 27, 2014 04:32
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Rosalind posted:This article has nothing to do with autism. Most of the symptoms referenced are clearly aligned with autism spectrum disorders (poor communication skills, behavioral problems, etc), even though they don't actually use the word "autism" (they use "neurodevelopment disorder" instead). There's a 2014 paper that is paywalled (I can't see it at all) here, and here's a 2013 paper that has a free abstract. quote:Prenatal and perinatal analgesic exposure and autism: an ecological link. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 04:45
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AlistairCookie posted:Almost as bad are the "we're going to spread out the 'toxins' and vaccinate on our own schedule" crowd. The problem with that is, the vaccine schedule doctors follow is determined to offer the most immunity as quick as safely possible.  Chido posted:Why is it that much more modern vaccines are suddenly much more dangerous for their precious babies than the vaccines they and their own parents received?
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Mar 27, 2014 04:51
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Paul MaudDib posted:Most of the symptoms referenced are clearly aligned with autism spectrum disorders (poor communication skills, behavioral problems, etc), even though they don't actually use the word "autism" (they use "neurodevelopment disorder" instead). Yes, and making the connection between measurable neurological differences and autism is where autism research usually shits the bed, frankly.
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Mar 27, 2014 05:01
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Paul MaudDib posted:Most of the symptoms referenced are clearly aligned with autism spectrum disorders (poor communication skills, behavioral problems, etc), even though they don't actually use the word "autism" (they use "neurodevelopment disorder" instead). Apologies for my ignorance here--I come from an infectious disease background--but does having equivalent symptomology imply it's the same disease when dealing with developmental disorders? I would never state that something being associated with the symptoms of a disease and something being associated with the disease itself are equivalent because symptoms can so easily overlap with infectious diseases. But I honestly have no idea how it works with neuro stuff.
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Mar 27, 2014 05:01
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I actually sourced that paywalled paper. It's a "general status of research" kind of update, less than a page. The Brandlistuen paper is the "this has nothing to do with autism" paper, the other one they reference is the 2013 paper I cited above.quote:Brandlistuen et al. recently documented the detrimental role that gestational paracetamol exposure has on childhood neurodevelopment, putatively due to oxidative stress. Although the authors did not use the words ‘autism spectrum disorder’ (ASD), clearly some of the adverse neurodevelopmental effects they demonstrated are consistent with ASD. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 05:02
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Well, yeah, even Jenny McCarthy's kid ended up not even having Autism. silicone thrills fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 05:03
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Welp http://www.cbsnews.com/news/measles-outbreak-in-orange-county-california-worst-in-decades/ quote:An outbreak of measles in Orange County, California is the worst health officials have seen in two decades. Thanks Anti-Vaxxers! Aeka 2.0 fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 05:47
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Have you seen my apex seals? I seem to have lost them.
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Anti-vaxxers claim vaccines are more dangerous now because kids get way more vaccines these days.
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Mar 27, 2014 06:05
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My dad's cousin caught polio when she was young, it left her so physically crippled that she's in a wheel chair and can only communicate by shaking and nodding her head and making noises that vaguely sound like 'Yes' or 'No'. To top it all off, she was misdiagnosed as being severely mentally disabled and was never taught how to read or write.  Yeah man, autism is totally worse than dying or being left so physically malformed that your body becomes a prison for your mind!. 
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Mar 27, 2014 06:50
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This topic is so frustrating, because it seems like there is literally nothing one can say that will convince the true believers (reminds me of debating climate change, guns, abortion, etc). How does one combat the hucksters, anecdotes, and distrust of modern-medicine/CHEMICALS! that this group sees as evidence? I literally saw in the same debate, a woman claim her doctor husband agrees with her not to vaccinate their child, but someone else claim the original article, written by a pediatrician, is of course biased by his allegiance to "big pharma" and wanting those sweet vaccine fees from parents. People just see what they want to see.
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Mar 27, 2014 12:07
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No.44 posted:My dad's cousin caught polio when she was young, it left her so physically crippled that she's in a wheel chair and can only communicate by shaking and nodding her head and making noises that vaguely sound like 'Yes' or 'No'. To top it all off, she was misdiagnosed as being severely mentally disabled and was never taught how to read or write. I do a lot of work with the Rotary Club trying to get vaccines to far-flung corners of the world where dangerous diseases like Polio still linger. We're doing pretty well, but the Syrian Civil War is loving things up all over the ME because their health system has totally broken down and fighters are flying in from all over the world bringing diseases with them. There are already reported cases of Polio throughout Syria and we're really, really worried that it's going to get out and contaminate the broader ME. Only good thing is that we're talking to a bunch of rich dudes in Saudi who remember Polio epidemics from when they were kids, so they might throw some money into the pot and the Red Cross/Crescent is taking it seriously too.
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Mar 27, 2014 12:20
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No.44 posted:My dad's cousin caught polio when she was young, it left her so physically crippled that she's in a wheel chair and can only communicate by shaking and nodding her head and making noises that vaguely sound like 'Yes' or 'No'. To top it all off, she was misdiagnosed as being severely mentally disabled and was never taught how to read or write. Having know people with severely autistic kids, you are very wrong on that. I'd put the worst end of the spectrum up against polio for the level of debilitation-- what's the point of your body working if every kind of social and physical interaction causes you incredible pain and terror? That being said, vaccines aren't the cause of it, and the poo poo who are putting their kids and other people up for horrible diseases need something done about them, like life-crushing civil suits or prison time.
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Mar 27, 2014 12:32
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poopinmymouth posted:This topic is so frustrating, because it seems like there is literally nothing one can say that will convince the true believers (reminds me of debating climate change, guns, abortion, etc). How does one combat the hucksters, anecdotes, and distrust of modern-medicine/CHEMICALS! that this group sees as evidence? You mock them, you shame them and you make sure that your local politicians make vaccination exemptions as hard as possible. Edit: how would you treat someone who was beating the poo poo out of a kid? Some who was starving a kid? Someone who was denying a kid proper medical care? Solkanar512 fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 12:32
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