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In my experience, it's all about identity politics. Antivaxxers are antivaxxers because that's they think they are supposed to be. It's the "left-wing" version of the abortion protestors who are more than happy to make use of the services they are protesting against because as long as they return to the picket line their identity remains intact. I personally know a great girl who is a major anti-vaxxer, and has recently moved to hollywood to pursue her acting career, and honestly - it doesn't seem that it's about logic or evidence or anything like that to her. It's just another piece of her image, a tool to define who she is, and she doesn't care about the consequences because they aren't real to her. It's a fashion accessory that grants a whole bunch of psychological benefits to those who hold that view. I can also kind of see how it got started because let's be honest most doctors and the medical system in general is kinda poo poo, and it's not really surprising if people begin to suspect some of that incompetence is outright malevolance when you're the one repeatedly getting screwed over and conned. This doesn't exactly justify their tendency to run to the nearest obvious con man who offers an alternative, but... I can at least understand the desire.
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Mar 26, 2014 17:58
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Madmarker posted:It's more than a fashion accessory, there are a lot of true believers. These aren't contradictory statements. Superficial adornments of group alignment are 100% deadly serious to those who sink their identity into that group. You are right in that it is the same mindset that breeds global warming deniers, but they believe because there is clear social value in believing - they think it's true, truly believe deep in their hearts it is true, not because it is likely to be true but because it benefits them to think so. Climate change, antivax, health drinks, homeopathy, it's all the same bullshit.
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Mar 26, 2014 20:10
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Consider getting them vaccinated on the sly, if you can - at least against the major stuff, especially if you live an area like Orange County where they aren't being proected by herd immunity anymore and they are at significantly higher risk.
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Mar 29, 2014 22:25
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Holy gently caress everyone on both sides of this "debate" are loving idiots. Judging by the loving responses and repitition and completely ignoring every other point that everyone has made for the last... three pages? Four? Side 1: Destroy it because there's a miniscule change of bad stuff! Side 2: Keep it because it might be useful once it's gone its gone forever! Side 1: That's not true, we can make more. Side 2: So what's the point of destroying it? Side 1: Because there's a miniscule chance of bad stuff! What's the point of keeping it? Side 2: It might be useful someday, and once it's destroy it's gone forever! Rinse. Repeat. Pre-edit: Actually, I forgot the following - Side 1: Scientists say we should destroy it! (WHO) Where's YOUR experts? Side 2: Scientists say we should keep it! (CDC) Where's YOUR experts? Rinse. Repeat. If no one has a point that isn't one of those points, can we please go back to talking about goddamn antivax idiots instead of making them look good by comparison? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 03:56
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Buried alive posted:So I came across a comment the other day that most of the people who get measles are the ones who get vaccinated against it. Is there any source for this? Assuming we've got desired vaccination rates, this should be true, hopefully! 99.5% vaccination rate with a 1% failure rate and a 100% infection rate for non-vaccinators would still mean there would be more infected vaccinators than non-vaccinators. I don't know if it's true for now, I haven't seen the data, but if you've got a vaccine with a failure rate at all it's the state you end up hoping for.
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Jul 10, 2014 17:54
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Who What Now posted:It's tragic how toothless CPS can be in actually removing children from unsafe homes or situations. What's just as sad is that I don't see that ever changing. Many people wouldn't see it as giving CPS the ability to do their jobs better and protect children but rather as tyrannical government invasion of home and privacy. The problem is they need to be convinced it's bad enough at home that CPS is a step up. And at least around here, the kids in the CPS system are treated like human garbage as often as not.
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Nov 9, 2014 04:28
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Could you legally quarantine individuals for not being vaccinated if there was an serious area outbreak of whatever it is they weren't vaccinated against (for so long the outbreak continued, since obviously the purpose of the quarantine would be to stop it from spread)?
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Jan 8, 2015 23:02
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SedanChair posted:If you have a PhD and piss on an electric fence, guess what that makes you? Stupid. Everyone is pretty stupid though, usually in lots of similar and utterly predictable ways. Quirk of the wiring.
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Apr 16, 2015 18:20
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What relevance does the cog chart stuff have to do with antivax in general or this thread in particular? It doesn't seem to bring anything new to the table at all. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Apr 19, 2015 |
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Apr 19, 2015 16:04
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Discendo Vox posted:Short version is it's the reason why fact-laden or normal, intuitive persuasion/argumentation is actually really counterproductive when dealing with antivaxxers. More generally, it represents the current hot consensus in science communication, and should inform our approach to conversations with antivaxxers. You seem to be casting it as a research team with a flawed and less-than-meaningful but arguably more accurate than its competitors taxonomic system. Nothing in your post discussed "reasons" why fact-laden argumentation is counterproductive, just evidence that it was (which we already know), unless I missed something both in the initial and reread? We've already spent like a dozen pages in this thread talking about the reasons why much argumentation is counterproductive with antivaxxers including research about what those reasons were and ways to work around it. You didn't... actually include any in your post, so I was wondering if they had any particularly relevant findings, maybe even insofar as effective alternative strategies for changing people's positions about the topic. You seem to have read quite a bit about it, maybe they have discovered something useful, if so you should share. And yes, I'm reading the site now, but it will take me a while probably. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Apr 19, 2015 |
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Apr 19, 2015 18:50
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On the other hand, it would be pretty strong evidence that they really were loving things up where you live.
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Apr 21, 2015 17:26
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VitalSigns posted:So you were just making poo poo up. Cool, thanks for the CPS fanfic. To be fair, he was probably basing it on a lot of the rolling-stones-gang-rape quality reporting that constantly comes out about the CPS because it's easy to find "victims" going on record slamming the CPS for taking their poor kids away.
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Apr 21, 2015 17:30
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Dalael posted:Nope. I base it on documentaries that interviewed children who themselves were subjected to the whole ordeal and say it hosed them up. As someone who has been involved in the system as part of a foster family, these children are probably not reliable witnesses. Many (not all, maybe not even most, but many) children taken by the CPS genuinely and legitimately love their parents and are desperate to think of them in the best possible light, even a decade after they've been removed from the home, and I've seen this belief (that the CPS taking them away is the reason they are hosed up) even among kids who definitely should have been removed from their families or they would have been hosed up even more. I've also seen it among kids who were taken away from families, arguably legitimately, and then placed in foster homes that were even worse because of sexual abuse or something, but the CPS here at least really is so underfunded and desperate for support that stuff like that is pretty much inevitable, although tragic. So there's definitely some truth to the fact that CPS can make things worse, but it's a situation where it is very very hard to get to the truth and that's part of why it happens. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 18:36
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Main Paineframe posted:Preventive care is totally different from reactive care. If parents refused to bring their dying-of-whooping-cough child to the hospital even when their condition was clearly life-threatening, they would be open to prosecution, but there isn't much precedent for charging someone for failing to give a preventive medical procedure to a perfectly healthy child who was not particularly at-risk, especially when relevant local laws about medical care grant parents the option to use specific, explicit exceptions to not give that procedure. What if an epidemic actually happens among the local unvaccinated population, and they opt to still not get a vaccine despite the clear and present risk of infection? Or those disease party things...
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May 1, 2015 20:20
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:How many anti-vaxers have publicly claimed that they do not care if other people get hurt because of their decision? What percentage of the anti-vax movement is compromised of these people? Every single one I've talked to, and I've known quite a few in the furthest reaches of my extended family and friend network, have said this. It comes up a lot because my brother has an immune disorder, so when they do bullshit like post their antivax poo poo on Facebook I often bring up "My brother relies on people who can get vaccines doing so to be protected from these diseases", to which they always and inevitably respond that they do not give a poo poo if he dies because of their actions, it's their right to do what they want. I would argue very, very high percentages of the movement is composed of these people, because I have never, not even once, met one that does not advocate it.
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May 5, 2015 14:49
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This basically sounds like the EBM curriculum is not, previous to your work, evidence based. That... sort of seems like a serious issue? Or am I misunderstanding/
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Nov 10, 2015 21:11
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Ironically antivax and antigmo companies are both significantly more capitalist than their pro science equivalants since there is quite a bit of publically funded and controlled actual scientific medical and genetics research, while the antivax, homeopathy and gmo free movements are all entirely built around selling things and making money by pushing a consumerist approach towards ineffective solutions. Also if you want a bad pharma company you should go with Bayer or something not Monsanto, Monsanto doesnt even do pharma and Bayer actually is the unfeeling corporate monstrosity people make Monsanto out to be.
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Aug 18, 2016 19:27
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