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Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

xrunner posted:

...homeopathic movement ...

I tried to explain the elementary school concept of diffusion to her as a counterpoint to why that wouldn't even work, but she was having none of it...

This person has a worldview of diffusion that is completely incompatible with reality. She believes that you can make drugs stronger by diluting them, chemtrails make perfect sense from that perspective.

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Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

Jack Gladney posted:

Wait, how old is the chicken pox vaccine? I'm 30 and had never heard of it before a few years ago. Has it really been around for 20 years?

It wasn't very common when you were at the age it'd be most useful.

If you were a year or two younger you might have gotten it.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin
I think James Randi has written a bit about how scientists are easily fooled by magicians.

Because they don't know how magic works, they don't even know the kinds of controls they should be implementing.

It's kind of like when you're a total novice and someone asks you if you have any questions, you don't know enough to know what you don't know.

Add in the human element where the manipulative magician is playing on the scientist's desire to discover something new and you have a recipe for disaster.

This doesn't mean they're idiots, the whole reason we have peer review and other structures is to help fight these natural problems.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

Discendo Vox posted:

That means that more subject information/knowledge actually polarizes people more.

At first, I thought this was a dumb idea, so I read up on it and did some research.

Now I think it's a REALLY dumb idea.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

Discendo Vox posted:

It's interesting you should mention that- information-seeking intention is one of the potential spoiler variables, but it's proving difficult to effectively measure. Information-seeking in general doesn't have any effect on the polarization effect.

Don't look into it too hard, I'm just giving you a hard time :)

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin
Homeopathy sort of makes sense in an 18th century context where all medicine was basically quackery so distilled water resulted in better patient outcomes than bloodletting or snake venom or whatever was trendy.

From that angle, I don't really think it's awful for minor aches and pains where someone might seek out pain medication.

But of course, the homeopaths don't limit themselves to harmlessness, they bash actual medicine while creating homeopathic inhalers for asthma.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

Discendo Vox posted:

It's a violation of basic principles of informed consent in medical treatment to give a patient a treatment that doesn't work- in part because it places the clinician in a position of absolute power over the recipient of care.

I want to be clear, no medical professional should ever prescribe homeopathic remedies outside of a research context where the patient is aware that they may or may not be getting real medicine.

I'm just saying that it isn't disastrous for someone with a mild cold to buy vitamin C or homeopathic remedies instead of something that has actual medicine in it.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

VitalSigns posted:

True.

I do the apple cleanse to get rid of toxins, myself. Eat an apple right before bed, and the next morning it's all brown, thick with the toxins it extracted from my teeth the night before.

You're supposed to peel two apples and then hold them in your armpits as you sleep.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

PhazonLink posted:

You joke but that argument was seriously used during WW2 when head injuries suddenly went up when new helmets were used.

Also the Airforced doesn't know where to place armor.

If I remember right, that was one of the classic questions of operations research.

The original plan was to place armor on the parts of planes that were most damaged.

The problem with that is that their sample set included only bombers that survived. The damaged areas on survivors represent non-vital areas.

The decision was made to increase armor on the areas that were undamaged, on the basis that those points were most likely to lead to a destroyed aircraft if hit.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

Gorilla Salad posted:

From the schadenfreude thread in PYF:

That kid is awesome. Think of all the things a teenager could spend their babysitting money on and she decided to go with vaccines.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

Evil Fluffy posted:

I seriously wish it was against the law for shows like Dr. Oz to exist. Being really good in field A shouldn't mean you're allowed to bilk idiots out of their money by peddling bullshit snake oil stuff related to fields B, C, and Q.

e: And being a doctor who buys in to anti-vax stuff, or homeopathy, should be grounds to lose your medical license because you're probably going to end up killing a patient when you tell them to take fish oil to cure their cancer or something.

I'll find the pictures when I get home, but the last time I went to the doctor, I got a printout of all sorts of new-agey bullshit including colloidal silver and some sort of detox fruit shake that I could buy through their website.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

Evil Fluffy posted:

Report them for medical malpractice.




Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

That Works posted:

I regret wasting my time trying to convince him of anything.

If his kid got any vaccines, you may have saved a life. :unsmith:

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin
Just sent this to my girlfriend in Pharmacy school. She's allergic to the Pertussis vaccine.

I'm gonna have to bring home wine or something because she's furious.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

Ddraig posted:

I seem to remember something about something similar being done to child soldiers when they get introduced to a normal life, it's incredibly helpful for both the children themselves and the community if they have some sort of 'cleansing ritual' as it makes the transition from being a killer to being a regular child more palatable.

I used to work on a reservation and at least a few Native tribes have rituals and ceremonies for people returning from the military. They follow the same basic idea about transition and cleansing.

I can't help but think that there's value in that.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

Volcott posted:

One might argue it's unethical to let plague bombs into public schools, while we're making a list.

I Don’t Vaccinate My Child Because It’s My Right To Decide What Eliminated Diseases Come Roaring Back

quote:

Look, I’ve done the research on these issues, I’ve read the statistics, and I’ve carefully considered the costs and benefits, and there’s simply no question in my mind that inciting a nationwide health emergency by unleashing a disease that can kill 20 percent or more of its victims is the right one for my child.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

Ilustforponydeath posted:

My friend's mom says that the tamiflu vaccine made her allergic to electricity.

Is this some sort of precursor to late-onset schizophrenia?

Tamiflu isn't a vaccine, it's an antiviral that fucks up the way viruses spread.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin
I Don’t Vaccinate My Child Because It’s My Right To Decide What Eliminated Diseases Come Roaring Back

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin
When I am faced with a tough moral question, I use the following thought experiment (I think this is from Rawles):

Imagine that time stops, and everyone who has a moral stake in the issue is summoned to a meeting, where nobody knows who each other is, nor do they even know their own identities.

From this perspective, it should be easier to find the right answer.

For vaccines, nobody knows if they're the one that's an immunocompromised child that will be vulnerable. I think it's easy to conclude that it's okay to force some people to be vaccinated, because the downsides of forced vaccination are mild, and it protects innocent people.

For skateboarding, it's harder to make that case. The impacted parties are really only people involved if there's an accident and the skater needs medical care. Is it really worth banning skateboards just to reduce some injuries to people who know that there doing something risky?

It's not a perfect tool, but I think it helps.

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Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

Bleak Gremlin

Discendo Vox posted:

The Veil's not great- it frequently serves as an undirected intuition pump, so it doesn't help much for reaching consensus.

I kinda had an intuitive feeling that that was the case.

At the very least, I would assume that the unusual framing of the scenario would make it harder for people to just regurgitate canned arguments.

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