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I wanted to make a summary for the Italian situation, but guess what? poo poo's hosed up. I'll do it nonetheless but this round of elections is turning into local politics: we're pretty much going to verify if Berlusconi's really dead, if Renzi's really our new Berlusconi and if Grillo has vision or is just a hack.
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Apr 23, 2014 13:19
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Xoidanor posted:Did Berlusconi seriously get 1 month of community service in punishment or did my newspaper just make a mistake? 4 hours/week in a nursing home for 10 months. I'd say "Mistake"! The original sentence was for 4 years of prison, but he's past 70 so he can't go in detention. Plus there are ways to shorten the duration of the detention if you somehow cooperate with the law. In the end, the attorney asked for house detention, Berlusconi's lawyer negotiated for community service. Our beloved ex-premier ended up nursing people as old as him. Some of them are really happy of having him around! Char fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Apr 23, 2014 |
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Apr 23, 2014 13:44
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Badger of Basra posted:Question about Renzi: he has talked up Tony Blair and said he's great and super cool. Do people outside the UK not realize that Tony Blair was terrible and widely loathed by the time he left? Nope. We aren't, at least. According to the current interpretation of UK politics by our media, Tony Blair is a respectable politician who shaked up the stagnating scene in the UK, bringing new ideas and allowing the UK to keep its place among the leading countries in the western world.
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Apr 23, 2014 21:13
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So, what is going on in Italy. Current MEPs: 71. We'll vote for 73 this time around. How's the election working: the country's split into 5 regions: North-East, North-West, Center, South, Islands (Sicily and Sardinia). Basically our seats will be counted with a weighted average of votes, region by region. We have at our disposal the glorious democratic instrument of voting preferences, so we'll be able to choose up to three politicians who will receive a paid holiday in Bruxelles. Be mindful: if we don't choose people of two different sexes, our third preference will be declared null and void. If you don't express preferences, votes get defaulted on a list of candidates. Placing people on top of the lists means they're very likely to get a seat. Note #1: most people don't know if and who they're going to vote. Like 60%. And our polls are notoriously bad. So take those numbers with a grain of salt. Note #2: people here have no idea what we're voting for. The most practical thing to think is that we're going to show a measurable amount of consensus on the current government. Parties will use the result of these elections for propaganda. Democratic Party [Partito Democratico, PD] Current MEPs: 23 Supports: S&D Polls place it at: 34% (28 Apr 2014) Renzi's party. As already stated, this round of elections is going to be used as a testbed for our new premier. His trademark was the "let's scrap them" [referring to the current politics] in 2010, which was the buzzword that started his acension to the leadership of the PD. He's got strong opposition inside his party and winning in May will allow him to shut up his close enemies. The PD agenda wasn't strictly tied to the premier's in the last years, but Renzi has taken notes during the Berlusconi governments and started identifying his party in his staff: he's always been socialist and pro-Europe, so they're making a decent effort in taking these elections seriously. He went against the party and promoted 5 women on top of the regional lists, there's no evident clown going to Bruxelles. Most likely going to be the top party due to the momentum Renzi has gained, this could be a career-ending failure if the polls were to turn out completely wrong. Yes, it has happened before. Forza Italia Political Movement [Forza Italia, FI] Current MEPs: 17 Supports: PPE (at the time of writing, at least) Polls place it at: 19% (28 Apr 2014) Berlusconi's party. It is currently dissolving, most of his voters turned to M5S or to PD recently, and at least one of his top-guys abandoned the ship. After what he said regaring Germany and lagers, his party might even be excluded fromt he PPE group. Maybe. At the time of writing it's at an all-time low, the top names on the lists are nobodies, we're all waiting for Berlusconi's media bomb to earn consensus. On the other hand the man's 78, he's got yesmen and incompetent seat-warmers around him, and he's got a sentence on his head - the hilarious stuff about him serving 4 hours / week doing social work is true. It seems hard he can manage to turn things around. But you never know. It could be the nail in the coffin. Five Star Movement [Movimento Cinque Stelle, M5S] Current MEPs: 0 Supports: - Polls place it at: 24% (28 Apr 2014) Grillo's "non-party". You should know something about this party. It's a movement which started in 2007 with local meetups, with common folks discussing problems. Flash forward to 2013, they broke the bipolarism we had since the '50s and became the 3rd national party. How? At its best, M5S brought "normal people" inside the spheres of power, tried to induce mandatory primary elections in all political groups, and brought some fear of God into the old politicians. At its worst, it's fueling violent and ignorant behaviours and using them as political catalyst, and uses media spinning to bolster its ideas. In the last 2-3 months it has really shown who its target voter is, by inopportunely quoting Primo Levi (an Auschwitz survivor, known mainly for his work Survival in Auschwitz) or by aggressively expelling its members for ideological differences. My personal opinion taints the description of this group but I can't really take seriously a political group with technocratic tendencies which believes in bullshit like chemtrails, aloe healing cancer and autism induced by vaccines. Isn't going to ally with any major political group, is being coherent with its nature by sending "normal people" (read: incompetent and/or inexperienced people) to the EP, has placed draconian measures on its candidates to ensure noone will "betray" them (basically, they were forced to sign a paper which stated "if you ever disagree with the party, pay 250k€ or go home"). I'll stop here because I despise them. Its policies are kinda anti-EU, surely they're not rooting for a federal Europe. There's a list... oh, I found it: Abolish Fiscal Compact, Adopt Eurobonds, Alliance between Mediterranean countries for shared politics, Referendum for keeping the Euro... what the hell, I can't do it, sorry. This round of elections is a test to see if they are keeping up with the sudden surge of consensus they had one year ago. The balloon might go even higher or might pop and fall. New Centre-Right – Union of the Centre [Nuovo Centro-Destra - Unione di Centro, NCD-UDC] Current MEPs: 14 Supports: PPE Polls place it at: 6% (28 Apr 2014) Alfano's party after he split with Berlusconi. He allied with Casini, an old timer. If you're Catholic and conservative and for some reason aren't going to vote Berlusconi, you'll vote for these guys. Currently their strategy is unknown. I mean, it seems they're just waiting for someone to die (politically) and take their place. They're waiting for Forza Italia's death. It doens't really look like a good strategy but I guess they don't have anything else, since this party is made from former FI members (therefore, mostly yesmen and incompetent fools). They'll get a couple of seats. Northern League [Lega Nord, LN] Current MEPs: 7 Supports: ELD Polls place it at: 5% (28 Apr 2014) The famous group who wants to split the Northern Italy from the rest. They're anti-Europe and they want out of everything. They lost most of their voters to M5S, they're in shambles and they're trying to recover. They still have a small group of hardcore voters which they don't care for what LN currently says, they care for what it represents: the dream of freedom for the hard-workers, no more dragged down by their lazy compatriots. They'll get a couple of seats, too. Brothers of Italy - National Alliance [Fratelli d'Italia - Alleanza Nazionale, AN] Current MEPs: 3 Supports: - Polls place it at: 3.5% (28 Apr 2014) And this is the right-wing party (FI is the moderate-right). Even if they were decent guys (and for most part they aren't), they'd be facing too much concurrency. They're waiting for FI's death too. European Choice [Scelta Europea, SC] Current MEPs: 1 Supports: ALDE Polls place it at: 3% (28 Apr 2014) It's actually a group of liberal parties. Monti's, for instance, but others too. Not going to be taken seriously ever, liberalism is despised here. The Other Europe with Tsipras [L'altra Europa con Tsipras] Current MEPs: 0 Supports: GUE/NGL Polls place it at: 3% (28 Apr 2014) "Who the hell is this guy?! A Greek guy? What the hell does he want from us?" Dunno, I actually like him but the guys aligning with him here are unrepented left-wing extremist, madmen and clowns. It doesn't seem likely they'll get past the minimum percentage. Green Italia - European Green [Green Italia - Verdi Europei] Current MEPs: 0 Supports: S&D Polls place it at: 0.X% (28 Apr 2014) Comedy option #1. "Greens"? What are "Greens"? Italy of Values [Italia dei Valori, IDV] Current MEPs: 4 Supports: ALDE Polls place it at: 0.X% (28 Apr 2014) Comedy option #2. Used to be the leftist angry voter's party, its leader was a former attorney, newspapers somehow found his less-than-legal activities, the party disappeared. Most of its voters now vote PD or M5S. Sudtirol Volkspartei Current MEPs: 1 Supports: PPE Polls place it at: 0.X% (28 Apr 2014) The party representing the minorities of Sudtirol. Usually they teamed with FI, they're on their own this time around. Why? Dunno. Associative Movement Italians Abroad Current MEPs: 1 Supports: - As above. I don't even get how this party can exist. Move over. ---- So: TLDR. People don't know we're not voting for our parties but for something bigger; political forces need to confirm their success because they're gasping for air; poo poo's hosed up. As usual! Char fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Apr 28, 2014 |
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Apr 28, 2014 16:32
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:For quick characterizations I broadly agree with your post, but I want to make one thing totally clear for the thread. Fratelli d'Italia – Alleanza Nazionale are Well... It really doesn't strike me as the incarnation of fascism today. There are other parties/movements (Forza Nuova and Casa Pound) which do and they often express their disappointment in how Alleanza Nazionale has softened. But I don't know actual voters of that party, so I can't really tell. Also, they're pretty much irrelevant in the political scenario, so they have little chances to show their true colors. Char fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Apr 28, 2014 |
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Apr 28, 2014 20:38
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:Char are you based in Rome, or know any other goons who are? The girlfriend and I moved here recently (~10 months ago) and while I follow Aussie politics closely we're also trying to become more aware of Italian/European issues now that life is slowing down a bit, so we started a politics-themed meet up group. So far we have one other woman who came to the first drinks night but if you're interested (and in Rome) we'd love to bug you and other goons for like 10 hours about the upcoming elections: Sorry, I'm in Tuscany. There's a bunch of Italian goons... try and track them down  The Italian politics thread is archived now. EDIT: anyone watched the presidential debate?
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Apr 29, 2014 18:02
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Deltasquid posted:If anything, at least the Italians can rest easy, knowing that one day, time itself will finally rid them of Berlusconi. No worries, we'll have a new national hero by then.
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May 9, 2014 09:29
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTJstMiRTEc Streaming from Florence, State of the European Union. The 4 main groups' leaders are speaking. Again, Tsipras isn't there. Dunno why.
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May 9, 2014 18:02
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The median in Italy for 2011 was 15,723 €/y, after taxes. It is pretty normal here to have a 900-1200 €/month wage, especially if you don't live in a big city (and there's only a handful of them). Which is fine if you live with your parents and yadda yadda that's why we have 40 years old living with parents. Char fucked around with this message at 14:47 on May 12, 2014 |
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May 12, 2014 09:36
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NihilismNow posted:It is almost as if Portugal/Greece and Germany shouldn't be in the same economical union because their societies and economies are nothing alike. This is true all over Europe. Italy doesn't even have a legally established minimum wage, and the cost of living spaces from the high (1400€/m are realistic) costs of Milan and the big cities to the low (500€/m) costs for the small towns.
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May 13, 2014 09:29
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Bové had a strong accent, but other than that, everyone was perfectly clear to understand. I don't think most people really care about accents. Local news: Five Star Movement stated a couple days ago that if they win the elections, they're going to beeline straight to the President of the Republic to ask him to shut off this government, as it's clearly NOT expressing the will of the population. Here, these elections are national elections. FSM is racking up consensus while stating that they won't join any group: the irony is that their candidates are technically going on a paid holiday in Bruxelles and the people voting them are the self-professed most politically conscious group. (before anyone asks: can really the FSM ask for that? Do they have the technical and legal means to make such a request? NO.)
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May 20, 2014 11:05
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Wait, I understand why anti-European agendas are pulling ahead. What I don't understand is why a group of voters who vouches strongly for political consciousness is going to vote for a candidates which behind-the-veil stated that they are willingly going to take a passive role in the EUP. But handling the FSM is an Italian problem. The dissatisfaction with how Europe works is an European problem.
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May 20, 2014 11:54
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From the OP:Junior G-man posted:The tricky thing, of course, being that bit saying “on the basis of a proposal made by the European Council”, which can be taken to mean that any candidates proposed by the main factions need to be liked and/or endorsed by the Council. However, this would be a pretty blatant disregard for popular will and would infuriate the whole of Parliament. Heh.
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May 21, 2014 15:49
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baka kaba posted:We're getting this a fair bit in the UK (from parties and from the public), is it coming up everywhere in Europe? Kinda. PD isn't for closing the borders, but other groups are using immigration as a scapegoat for certain problems of our society. And it's not only the currents immigrants, it's every immigrant ever. Renzi said a couple words regarding the fact that at the beginning of '900, many of us moved towards the USA hoping to find a better life, so we're like these immigrants in a way. People (clearly not everyone, but a vocal group) answered with "But we didn't export crime/we were cleaner/we went there for jobs and we worked like mules/we basically were better human beings"  So... it's happening here too. My honest and probably misinformed opinion is that: -Italy has too much coast to efficiently set up any kind border control -We enjoyed greatly the cheap labor force that came here -We have no integration program -We have little certainty of punishment -Out culture doesn't really accept outsiders Therefore, I think it's very easy to point the blame on immigrants for... whatever. More fuel to the fire. Char fucked around with this message at 01:00 on May 22, 2014 |
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May 22, 2014 00:57
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LemonDrizzle posted:How could anyone possibly think of associating Italian-Americans with any sort of major organized criminal syndicate???  Cognitive dissonance is one of our best traits. The last 3 days had fantastic political talks.
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May 22, 2014 01:28
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Phlegmish posted:'We didn't export crime' Noone accountable said anything like this, mind that. But if there's a thousand facebook comments with that train of thought, it means that someone really thinks that.
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May 22, 2014 10:58
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Though it seems to be mostly an American phenomenon, I haven't heard of Italian immigrants in Belgium being particularly criminal.
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Xoidanor posted:It's exactly the same here in Sweden. The focus is on the candidates rather then the politics of which ever political alliance they might join in the parliament. Ok, it's the same everywhere.  I think this is a clear signal that the Europe project isn't really going in the right direction.
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May 22, 2014 11:24
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Tafferling posted:This just in from Italy's first exit polls: PD(centre left) is 10% ahead, M5S(gently caress the system) is huge but not quite enough and Forza Italia(Berlusconi) got boned hard. The projections state something different: PD at 42%, M5S at 20%, FI at 15%. WTF
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May 25, 2014 23:22
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Tafferling posted:I think that's a little bit too extreme, let's wait until at least 20% of the votes are out. Yeah yeah I agree, still the trend is... jarring. http://elezioni.interno.it/europee/scrutini/20140525/E0000000000.htm
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May 25, 2014 23:30
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3.177 / 61.592 sections PARTITO DEMOCRATICO 450.331 44,21 MOVIMENTO 5 STELLE BEPPEGRILLO.IT 208.653 20,48 FORZA ITALIA 147.078 14,44 
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May 25, 2014 23:46
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No, Forza Italia is pretty low. This is a nail in the coffin for both Five Star Movement and FI. Well, honestly Berlusconi can always make a comeback. ALWAYS. But I cannot forsee FSM (Movimento 5 Stelle) keeping momentum after this huge loss. You have no idea how much they hyped these elections... and they flopped badly. 4.539 / 61.592 PARTITO DEMOCRATICO 669.579 44,24 MOVIMENTO 5 STELLE BEPPEGRILLO.IT 313.340 20,70 FORZA ITALIA 221.826 14,65 quote:Did Italy hold national elections today as well? If so, does this mean a huge victory for the social democrats? Char fucked around with this message at 00:03 on May 26, 2014 |
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May 25, 2014 23:55
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17.096 / 61.592 sections PARTITO DEMOCRATICO 43,44 MOVIMENTO 5 STELLE BEPPEGRILLO.IT 20,65 FORZA ITALIA 15,19 That's all folks. Tsipras passed, they're above the 4% threshold.
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May 26, 2014 00:52
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Based on dunno what: http://electionsnight2014.eu/ It will start making sense later, I guess.
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May 26, 2014 01:06
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cebrail posted:drat that is a horrible article. Putting Greece and Italy(!) in the same category with France as countries whose governments were punished as if the PD was in any way comparable to the FN. And, as usual, seeing "populism" and anti-EU rhetoric as the only problem with the Front National or the UKIP. Yeah, in Italy the government party got a 42%, the highest consensus ever recorded for a center-left party. Hail your new socialist overlords, Europe! More serious chat: ok, so now that we have more concrete numbers to crunch... I keep reading how the low turnout showed skepticism towards the EU. But I wonder, as long as EPP+S&D+ALDE+NGL hold a strong majority (~75%?) in the EP, how could the status quo change? It will, at the very least, remain the same - or am I misunderstanding something? I mean, if you really thought you wanted the Council/Commission/Parliament shut down, you should've voted for an antieuropean party. By not voting, aren't you stating "I don't care, do as you wish"? A bunch of countries shown consensus shifting towards isolationism, but it's not a stark majority in the whole Europe. ...so, what I'm saying is: I think that every country used these elections as exhaust vents for their national problems, but the scope was much wider than that and the consequences aren't going to be the expected ones. Where's the fault in my line of thought? edit: or the worry is actually about the position that the French population took? Since it's very likely that when France will be questioned on why they're treading the waters on keeping deficit within 3% of GDP, the French government will ask its people what they think about this aggression on their sovranity, and the EU project will be truly tested to its foundations? Char fucked around with this message at 11:20 on May 26, 2014 |
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May 26, 2014 11:04
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Piraeus port is getting privatized.
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Feb 11, 2015 13:18
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As an empyrical observation, the communication strategy here in Italy does not show polarity towards either outcome - which I'd interpret in a "let's just wait and see what happens", which is not very different from "pay or diaf Greece".
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Feb 12, 2015 12:59
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Sucrose posted:It works at the national level, but not so well at the international level in a union like the EU. Is the root of the problem just insurmountable cultural barriers to the movement of labor? I'm Italian. I can say it might fail even at a national level.
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Jul 1, 2015 08:45
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GaussianCopula posted:How so? I'd be inclined to ask: why are they "desperately" looking, if unemployment is at record high in these European regions? I think the answer is something along these lines: because workers from Eastern or Southern Europe don't know German and don't know English, therefore they perceive the levels of quality of life they'd have by migrating would be inferior to the levels they'd have by staying in their countries. If they had the culture to overcome these barriers, they'd have higher education levels and they would already be migrating to attain their PhDs. Calling it "racist nationalism" doesn't do justice to the social phenomenon, becuase it's not only active dislike of a certain population who might or might not have wronged yours in the last 5 centuries, it's also something that operates at a more passive level: for instance, there's a HUGE disparity in language skills and education in the whole EU, and that's another aspect of "racist nationalism" - I don't know about other European governments, but I'm sure as hell mine never thought for a second about letting other governments tell us how to do what we do: we never let the EU impose us ("us" as the EU27) an official benchmark on services. "Racist nationalism" probably isn't the best definition, but you can't deny there's a some kind of deterrent to move from one country to the other. At least, in the mind of the average European citizen. Char fucked around with this message at 09:56 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 09:48
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