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Dead Reckoning posted:Claiming that four countries with ongoing civil wars have lower murder rates than the USA was simply the most glaring problem. Actually it does, minus a handful of cases, all of them by the way with greater gun regulations and fewer guns than the US. That a country has gun control as a law is not the relevant factor. The relevant factor is how successful in practice it is at actually controlling guns.
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Jun 28, 2014 04:02
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Tezzor posted:Actually it does, minus a handful of cases, all of them by the way with greater gun regulations and fewer guns than the US. That a country has gun control as a law is not the relevant factor. The relevant factor is how successful in practice it is at actually controlling guns. Okay but you said "well duh there are definitely countries that meet criteria A and criteria B." When asked to name some you linked to a list of every country.
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Jun 28, 2014 04:03
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Tezzor posted:Actually it does, minus a handful of cases What are those handful of cases? I mean you couldn't actually answer the last question you were asked, I wonder if you can answer one someone already gave you the answer to before.
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Jun 28, 2014 04:05
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Salt Fish posted:Okay but you said "well duh there are definitely countries that meet criteria A and criteria B." When asked to name some you linked to a list of every country. I'm sorry but I'm on mobile. Even a skimming of the pages provided will clearly demonstrate the point.
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Jun 28, 2014 04:06
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It sucks when the busy day to day of real life prevents you from participating fully in an internet argument.
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Jun 28, 2014 04:10
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Boogaleeboo posted:What are those handful of cases? I mean you couldn't actually answer the last question you were asked, I wonder if you can answer one someone already gave you the answer to before. There are a few countries with less restrictive gun control: Switzerland, New Zealand, and the Czech Republic. All of these countries have fewer and more tightly regulated guns than the US.
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Jun 28, 2014 04:13
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Before this thread gets gassed, please clarify for me: regardless of one's opinion on guns and gun control, are we still cool with describing the NRA as a cynical lobbying wing of arms manufacturers, intent on stoking a culture of toxic paranoia to fluff their profit margins?
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Jun 28, 2014 04:17
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Rangpur posted:Before this thread gets gassed, please clarify for me: regardless of one's opinion on guns and gun control, are we still cool with describing the NRA as a cynical lobbying wing of arms manufacturers, intent on stoking a culture of toxic paranoia to fluff their profit margins? At this point I would almost believe that the democratic party, the republican party and the NRA are all working together to sell as many guns as possible because they really couldn't do a much better job of it if they did collude.
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Jun 28, 2014 04:19
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Rangpur posted:Before this thread gets gassed, please clarify for me: regardless of one's opinion on guns and gun control, are we still cool with describing the NRA as a cynical lobbying wing of arms manufacturers, intent on stoking a culture of toxic paranoia to fluff their profit margins? The NRA's true power comes from the people who will vote to retain their gun rights, not the gun manufacturers' lobbying and money.
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Jun 28, 2014 04:20
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Tezzor posted:There are a few countries with less restrictive gun control: Switzerland, New Zealand, and the Czech Republic. All of these countries have fewer and more tightly regulated guns than the US. But you just said that strictness didn't matter, only success in keeping firearms out of civilian hands. Which one is it? Because I can point to several countries in the middle east where gun laws are essentially unenforced that have lower murder rates than the USA.
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Jun 28, 2014 04:22
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Tezzor posted:There are a few countries with less restrictive gun control: Switzerland, New Zealand, and the Czech Republic. All of these countries have fewer and more tightly regulated guns than the US. Switzerland, the country that conscripts all men and requires them to keep their militia gear at home: More tightly regulated guns than the US, period. Hundreds of thousands of assault rifles given to young bucks and the end result is....generally not a big deal. Why did you have to try and walk it across the line with that "fewer and more tightly regulated" bit?
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Jun 28, 2014 04:36
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natetimm posted:The NRA's true power comes from the people who will vote to retain their gun rights, not the gun manufacturers' lobbying and money.
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Jun 28, 2014 04:45
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Rangpur posted:Before this thread gets gassed, please clarify for me: regardless of one's opinion on guns and gun control, are we still cool with describing the NRA as a cynical lobbying wing of arms manufacturers, intent on stoking a culture of toxic paranoia to fluff their profit margins? I would say that the member-activists are more influential on the NRA's lobbying priorities than gun manufacturers. The domestic small arms market is pretty tiny and powerless compared to the lobbies that normally wield as much power as the NRA does. That can be attributed solely to the paramilitary zeal of its members. Now, much of their their zeal is fueled by racism and paranoia, and certainly the marketing of gun manufacturers uses racism and paranoia to sell guns. But that marketing is merely itself a reflection of the minds of many gun owners. It's gun owners who pushed manufacturers to put accessory rails on pistols and long guns, to mount lights and optics in emulation of police and military forces. It's gun owners who demand weapons up to the very edge of what is allowed by state and federal law, and it's gun owners who scream bloody murder when politicians propose to move that edge even a millimeter. Sure, marketing has an effect on the desires of gun owners. But gun owners have a way greater effect on manufacturers. Manufacturers are terrified of gun owners. When Ruger collaborated with Clinton, they were punished. This time around, they knew what side their bread was buttered on, so they've come out on the side of gun owners and now they're being rewarded. e: Of course now the NRA is openly working with Republicans on other parts of their agenda, which is a miscalculation and will damage them in the long run. woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 04:49
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natetimm posted:The NRA's true power comes from the people who will vote to retain their gun rights, not the gun manufacturers' lobbying and money. To go further, there have been times when the NRA has sided with corporate interests over those of its rank and file members. These times were in support of gun control laws, such as banning imports that gun control advocates saw as scary and domestic manufacturers saw as competition. They also got some huge backlash from members. The NRA's money comes mostly from double digit dues and contributions from each of its millions of members, and its political influence (which hits far higher than its budget would indicate) comes mostly from the same. It's branched out a lot into supporting a lot of noxious conservative causes outside guns so I'm not a fan, but that's pretty much entirely a reflection of its membership rather than an influence on them. Either way, they're really not an example of industry backed astroturfing in any real sense. I think that just like fanatic anti-gun people need to convince themselves they're following a progressive cause because it's always been in the Democratic party line and/or their European idol state of choice, they need to convince themselves the NRA is another arm of the gun manufacturers because all enemies are corporate property.
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Jun 28, 2014 04:54
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Boogaleeboo posted:Good one, that really showed him and eliminated all opposition to the idea of gun control. I gave him exactly the answer he deserved. He's pretty much indisputably a xenophobe. Look at that loving post about Europeans being jealous of how smart and attractive Americans are. Seriously. As for my being afraid of guns I have no problem admitting this is the case. It's totally and completely rational to be afraid of things that can kill you literally faster than you can say "oh poo poo a gun". Those of us who don't have ridiculous toxic understandings of masculinity can admit that without feeling ashamed. You can divide the world into two types of people: people who are afraid of guns, and fools. Ogmius815 fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 04:57
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Killer robot posted:I think that just like fanatic anti-gun people need to convince themselves they're following a progressive cause because it's always been in the Democratic party line and/or their European idol state of choice, they need to convince themselves the NRA is another arm of the gun manufacturers because all enemies are corporate property. I know, it's strange; maybe they should pick a European cause that's trendier, like abusing the concept of laïcité to prohibit hijab.
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Jun 28, 2014 04:58
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Ogmius815 posted:You can divide the world into two types of people: people who are afraid of guns, and fools. Let me tell you how I'm not foolish, since I can totally outshoot any Bad Guy With A Gun this side of the Mississippi, thanks to my extensive training consisting of watching nothing but cowboy movies and Rambo.
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Jun 28, 2014 05:05
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Ogmius815 posted:It's totally and completely rational to be afraid of things that can kill you literally faster than you can say "oh poo poo a gun". It's actually not. A lightning strike could kill you in an instant, walking around afraid of it all the time is irrational. Doing so in the middle of a storm while waving a bunch of golf clubs over your head on the top of a tall building is slightly more rational, because at least you are under a good deal more risk of it actually happening. Being afraid of guns is, for 99.99% of the public completely irrational. You will never be in a situation to be threatened by a gun, nor are you even remotely likely to be at any point in your life. quote:You can divide the world into two types of people: people who are afraid of guns, and fools. I'm sorry you have a mental disorder, but I'm sure some psychiatric care will clear up your underlying dysfunction in short order. Then you can get back to showing genuine fear in situations that warrant it like an actual rational adult. Ableist Kinkshamer posted:Let me tell you how I'm not foolish, since I can totally outshoot any Bad Guy With A Gun this side of the Mississippi, thanks to my extensive training consisting of watching nothing but cowboy movies and Rambo. You aren't funny, insulting, or interesting, and at no point of pulling poo poo like this has the conversation ever gone your way doing it in the multiple threads you've kept it up. Why do you bother?
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Jun 28, 2014 05:07
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Boogaleeboo posted:I'm sorry you have a mental disorder, but I'm sure some psychiatric care will clear up your underlying dysfunction in short order. Then you can get back to showing genuine fear in situations that warrant it like an actual rational adult. Reminder that the whole reason you have guns is so you can put holes in those you have deemed to be "Bad Guys" and that a reasonable person is rightfully afraid of you having a lapse of judgment.
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Jun 28, 2014 05:09
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Boogaleeboo posted:You aren't funny, insulting, or interesting, and at no point of pulling poo poo like this has the conversation ever gone your way doing it in the multiple threads you've kept it up. Why do you bother? The fact that all your responses amount to this is all I need to know that I'm doing good work.
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Jun 28, 2014 05:10
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To put it another way, people owning legally purchased firearms doesn't worry me. My late aunt owned an antique store in Manhattan, which occasionally required she carry lots of small,valuable items like jewelry. She owned a handgun in case of muggers, which seems like a reasonable precaution and also provides the amusing image of a tiny old Jewish woman walking around with a Colt Python. People burning a gun store to the ground because it carried guns with trigger locks worries me.
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Jun 28, 2014 05:10
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Boogaleeboo posted:It's actually not. A lightning strike could kill you in an instant, walking around afraid of it all the time is irrational. Doing so in the middle of a storm while waving a bunch of golf clubs over your head on the top of a tall building is slightly more rational, because at least you are under a good deal more risk of it actually happening. Being afraid of guns is, for 99.99% of the public completely irrational. You will never be in a situation to be threatened by a gun, nor are you even remotely likely to be at any point in your life. Hey so now it's also a mental illness to take reasonable precautions during lightning storms? I'm learning so much in this thread! I also personally know no fewer than two people who have been threatened with guns this year. I live in an area where armed robbery happens all the goddamn time. gently caress off. Ogmius815 fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 05:11
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Ogmius815 posted:I also personally know no fewer than two people how have been threatened with guns this year. Those people were Bad Guys and deserved it. Not the ones with the guns, those were surely Good Guys.
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Jun 28, 2014 05:12
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:Reminder that the whole reason you have guns is so you can put holes in those you have deemed to be "Bad Guys" and that a reasonable person is rightfully afraid of you having a lapse of judgment. I don't have guns. Ableist Kinkshamer posted:The fact that all your responses amount to this is all I need to know that I'm doing work. I don't get it. You aren't a good troll, because nobody gets upset and you don't innovate. You say the same things again and again and again. I least try to get banned when I troll, push it as far as it will go. You can't be interesting to yourself, because again...you don't innovate. You say the same things again and again and again. You aren't some distant puppet master, because you've pulled this same track in multiple gun threads. In all of which you say the same exact things. What is your fascination with the subject? e: Ogmius815 posted:Hey so now it's also a mental illness to take reasonable precautions during lightning storms? You consider not standing on top of a tall building waving golf clubs over your head a rational precaution? You *are* disturbed. quote:I also personally know no fewer than two people who have been threatened with guns this year. I live in an area where armed robbery happens all the goddamn time. gently caress off. So you make poor life choices, why should society put any stock in what you believe? Mulva fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 05:14
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Boogaleeboo posted:I don't get it. You aren't a good troll, because nobody gets upset and you don't innovate. You say the same things again and again and again. I least try to get banned when I troll, push it as far as it will go. You can't be interesting to yourself, because again...you don't innovate. You say the same things again and again and again. You aren't some distant puppet master, because you've pulled this same track in multiple gun threads. In all of which you say the same exact things. You get pretty upset. You got so upset that you made this post. You got upset when someone removed the Big Bang Theory reference from your avatar, outing you as a fan of that godawful show and making it clear to everyone who wasn't already aware of apt it is.
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Jun 28, 2014 05:20
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Yeah I make poor life choices because two people I know have been mugged this year. Go take a long walk off a short pier.
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Jun 28, 2014 05:21
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Ogmius815 posted:You can divide the world into two types of people: people who are afraid of guns, and fools. I think you can say something similar about skydiving or driving ATV's in the desert. These activities can potentially be very dangerous, and there is no real point or need for them, other than they are fun. I own a gun only because it is fun to shoot at the state-run range nearby. No other reason. As a side benefit I suppose that I might be able to protect myself in the incredibly unlikely event of a break-in while I'm at home, but I have no real expectation or even a fantasy of ever using it outside the range. Northjayhawk fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 05:22
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Northjayhawk posted:I think you can say something similar about skydiving or driving ATV's in the desert. These activities can potentially be very dangerous, and there is no real point or need for them, other than they are fun. I can deal with these situations by just not choosing to go skydiving or whatever. I can't choose when I'll be in a situation where a criminal or a delusional Good Guy will decide he needs to involve his gun.
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Jun 28, 2014 05:24
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Ogmius815 posted:I can deal with these situations by just not choosing to go skydiving or whatever. I can't choose when I'll be in a situation where a criminal or a delusional Good Guy will decide he needs to involve his gun. Fine, someone breaks the law, then punish them. We do not have a compelling reason to restrict gun owership by sane, rational adults. If I'm not certified as crazy or have a criminal record then I should not need to provide a justification any stronger than "because I want one".
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Jun 28, 2014 05:26
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Ogmius815 posted:Yeah I make poor life choices because two people I know have been mugged this year. Go take a long walk off a short pier. No, because you live in an area where armed robbery happens all the time. Step one of effective life responses to that situation: Don't loving live in an area where armed robbery happens all the God drat time. There is pretty much no area where it's going to be "The schools are great, and there's a really fun local theater scene, but people keep getting robbed at gun point". If that is hosed up, other things are too. If you can't leave due to other concerns, you also probably have bigger problems than the risk of being held up. Ableist Kinkshamer posted:You get pretty upset. You got so upset that you made this post. Saying "You mad bro?" doesn't actually make people mad, nor does it require any great emotion to hit "Submit reply". You can lie to me that you think I'm worked up about you, but I really hope you don't lie to yourself. That'd just be sad.
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Jun 28, 2014 05:29
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Rangpur posted:People burning a gun store to the ground because it carried guns with trigger locks worries me. That never happened, and the guy imagined the threats because he's a paranoid gun nut. Ogmius815 posted:Yeah I make poor life choices because two people I know have been mugged this year. Go take a long walk off a short pier. Heck I've been mugged, shot at even. No reason to go losing your poo poo.
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Jun 28, 2014 05:31
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Northjayhawk posted:Fine, someone breaks the law, then punish them. We do not have a compelling reason to restrict gun owership by sane, rational adults. If I'm not certified as crazy or have a criminal record then I should not need to provide a justification any stronger than "because I want one".
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Jun 28, 2014 05:35
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SedanChair posted:That never happened, and the guy imagined the threats because he's a paranoid gun nut.
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Jun 28, 2014 05:48
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Rangpur posted:Fair enough, I misremembered the story. You may insert a paranoid overreaction of your own choosing, it doesn't actually change the original post. How about the Assault Weapons Ban?
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Jun 28, 2014 05:50
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Rangpur posted:Fair enough, I misremembered the story. You may insert a paranoid overreaction of your own choosing, it doesn't actually change the original post. "Wow gun owners, way to burn down a gun shop."  *gets called out on lying* "Wow gun owners, way to overreact. Why don't you burn down a gun shop about it."
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Jun 28, 2014 05:55
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Am I misunderstanding something or are we not actually coming from the same place? I don't care if you have a gun. Go nuts. Well, not literally but you know what I mean. My primary source of anxiety is the conspiracy-minded paranoia that afflicts some segments of the gun enthusiast subculture. You seem to believe my position is that guns emit invisible paranoia rays, when in fact it's "the NRA should not encourage the perception that Kenyan Socialist stormtroopers are coming to confiscate your guns any day now, probably tomorrow."
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Jun 28, 2014 06:20
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Rangpur posted:Am I misunderstanding something or are we not actually coming from the same place? I don't care if you have a gun. Go nuts. Well, not literally but you know what I mean. That paranoia exists for a real reason, though. years and years of lovely gun laws penned by people who have no clue about guns aimed primarily at the demographic we're discussing instead of where the crime is actually happening. Yes, they are paranoid. But they are also right. In the face of recent shootings Obama bemoaned why we can't be more like Australia, where they confiscated and melted down everyone's guns.
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Jun 28, 2014 06:26
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Rangpur posted:Am I misunderstanding something or are we not actually coming from the same place? I don't care if you have a gun. Go nuts. Well, not literally but you know what I mean. Being relatively recent to owning or really caring about the right to own guns, I still spent a good while being one of the people rolling my eyes and saying "relax, gun control died as an issue with the AWB sunset, no one's coming for your guns and Obama just has a new AWB in his official platform out of habit." Really it felt like it was getting some good traction too. One failed but vigorous federal push, several severe and reactionary state level laws, and a tearful presidential speech later, I was left with egg on my face. It's in the Democratic court now: people who own guns and care about guns are going to stop being paranoid about their right when it's done being under attack, and then probably a good while longer before memories fade. If you're inclined to call that ironic because usually it's the right attacking people's rights and then wondering why those people don't love them, I'd agree with you. But I'd also add it's pretty ironic that the people on the left, the ones usually most aware that this kind of poo poo is bad in both practice and principle, are doing it anyway.
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Jun 28, 2014 06:37
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Would said demographic accept a knowledgable, carefully thought out law instead? What would such regulations entail? I know these threads degenerate into unparseable recursive layers of shitposting but it's a genuinely interesting question to me. Granted it would all be hypothetical, but be honest: is this thread really doing anything worthwhile as is?
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Jun 28, 2014 06:43
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Rangpur posted:Would said demographic accept a knowledgable, carefully thought out law instead? What would such regulations entail? I know these threads degenerate into unparseable recursive layers of shitposting but it's a genuinely interesting question to me. You're asking a child if there's a careful, thought out reason for why they can't play baseball in the house that they would accept. There isn't one. They simply can't envision a world in which playing baseball in the living room isn't ok.
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Jun 28, 2014 06:50
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